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The Monogamy Pledge

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I have not yet read everyone's responses although to me this is the simplicity of the matter...

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If you vowed before God and your wife that you would "forsake all others", then God Himself cannot release you from that vow because your wife is a separate individual party to it. She alone can release you from it and should be allowed to do so without Threat, Duress, or Coercion which tend to rightly void contractual matters anyway. See a law dictionary for definitions.
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Right, wrong, or indifferent it really is that simple.

I agree that men should not have made that vow to begin with and that men should have understood what they were doing more fully but you did so voluntarily in all the latent power of your person.

I believe that if we step into the fullness of our manhood it touches something very deep inside the woman that transcends reason, emotion, and cultural deceptions. It provides a context for her to release herself to you in ways in which both of you have never known. She will desire to be fully woman, as you are fully man in all that that implies.

Being a whiner, fit-thrower, and narrow-shouldered wuss is certainly not stepping into the fullness of your manhood but the strength of true faith and patience inherits the promises. See James 1:2-8 with focus on verses 3 and 4.

The Holy Spirit made it very plain to me that the above is the only righteous course that stands free of idolatry of heart during transition.

Here is where we are... I sat down with my wife and told her with great plainness that she stands in a place of power due to the vows we exchanged and unless she officially consents that will never change. We plan to have an official reworking of our vows at some point coming that lays a whole new biblical foundation for our marriage and supports God-ordained order. She has already attempted to consent, but I want to be fully confident that it comes with a joy from the heart that is held with the same intent or beyond that the vows of our wedding day possessed almost 15 years ago. That little micro-ceremony will most likely include the removal of my ring which we see as a symbol of her "ownership" of me. Like-wise until that day, the ring remains along with all of it's symbolic meaning. She knows that my heart is fully towards her, I will never leave her or forsake her and that I rejoice fully in the her "the wife of my youth" for truly she "satisfies me always".

Before you assume that I must be in some special circumstances allow me to share that when I first shared with her my study on this matter of polygyny she reacted so strongly the she "was calling a lawyer in the morning". God has done a most extraordinary work in our lives collectively.

We must not forget the huge emotional journey of trust and surrender that this step entails for the western woman. Starting that journey with a violation of trust is certainly not conducive to the purposes of God in anyones life. We are all being watched, let us not be a stumbling block for others due to "zeal without knowledge" (Pro. 19:2) and hurt the broader work of God that extends far beyond our individual lives.

This movement of God toward the restoration of important truths and the leaders within it must be very careful to not allow themselves to use evil to overthrow evil but to overcome evil with good and truly good alone. Ecc. 7:18

I hope that my words don't come off as offensive to anyone because they are meant in the strength of love.

Sincerely,

Curtis
 
Good for you. Curtis. Glad it is working out for you two.

But please remember that we humans are (nearly) infinitely varied. In others' cases, that "threat of a lawyer" was carried through, not because of narrow-shouldered wussiness on the part of the men, who may well still be patiently praying for the relationship a decade later, but for other reasons within the woman's own heart.

God knows all, and tells us that so long as there is life there is hope.
 
Tele-Caster said:
On the contrary, I would submit that it would be supremely foolish to NOT exercise judgement and spiritual discernment where the subject of Biblical Marriage is concerned, whether said union be monogomous or polygynous. Judgement in and of itself isn't a bad thing, for if it were, we wouldn't have Acts 17:11 included in God's Word. What is not wise is to excercise judgement in a manner that the person doing the judging wouldn't want to be judged by. In this, at least as far as this thread is concerned, my conscious couldn't be clearer. We live in an age where people increasingly refuse to endure sound doctrine and its one where itching ears do appear to be on the increase. Just as there are those who enter into mono unions for the wrong reasons, and seek only what they want to hear on the issue, I know for a certain fact that there are plenty of people who would enter polygynous ones for reasons eqaully wrong and Scripturally invalid.
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T-C,

I was spending some time with God this morning and praying about some other issues and He led me to this comment you made. It was truly a blessing! Regardless what this comment was originally in reference to, I believe you hit the proverbial nail on the head with your observations. I agree completely with you that we are REQUIRED to use spiritual discernment to exercise righteous judgment, even more so when said judgment is unpopular with the masses. In fact, we can practically measure the importance of Scriptural truth by its venomous opposition among the masses. I judge myself the harshest (always checking my reasons and motives), and my immediate family and closest friends know that my sledgehammer directness in no way diminishes my great love for them. For those closest to me, truth doesn't have to take a backseat to love. God has blessed me with a wonderful wife that walks in complete unity with me and with Him, so I know where you are coming from in having that kind of unconditional marriage relationship. I would never have even considered another wife unless God was going to be doing the providing, just as He did before. In my experience, when I try to do something on my own, I inevitably mess things up even worse. When I sit back and allow God to drive, He goes above and beyond my highest expectations. That's just how God teaches me to rely completely on Him. Thank you for blessing us both with your encouraging words this morning.

In His love,
David
 
CecilW,

I am so glad you said that and I apologize for leaving sufficient ambiguity to allow for that potential interpretation. I whole-heartedly agree with you and was referencing the subject not in reaction to the comments of others (which I look forward to later read) but rather in catagorical terms of principal.

I apologize for any confusion.

Sincerely,

Curtis

P.S. Sorry so short we have stopped for lunch on the way to Dallas and I pecked this out on my iPhone.
 
Curtis said:
If you vowed before God and your wife that you would "forsake all others", then God Himself cannot release you from that vow because your wife is a separate individual party to it. She alone can release you from it and should be allowed to do so without Threat, Duress, or Coercion which tend to rightly void contractual matters anyway. See a law dictionary for definitions.
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I am no lawyer, (and I don't even play one on T.V. :D ) but what God showed me is that if the vows were taken in ignorance and ANY of the vows, (for example to honor and obey/submit to the husband) have been broken at any point, the contract is void. No offense plese, but the wife does not have any such power if she has not kept every one of her vows perfectly. I have yet to see the Jezebel spirit allow a woman to do that.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
I have made it through Cecil's very well presented case on vows and I must admit that it makes allot of sense. Also, both of us felt your pain, Cecil, rather really just a hint of what must be heart-wrenching for you.

DrRay777 said:
No offense plese, but the wife does not have any such power if she has not kept every one of her vows perfectly. I have yet to see the Jezebel spirit allow a woman to do that.
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Dr Ray, all due respect, but that comes off as a bit harsh in my view. Let's take her vow to obey. (assuming this was included) Let's say the wife does not obey once but since repented and now does. That is surely not the parallel application that we desire to make with the more perpetual vow of exclusivity to her (as inappropriate as one may consider that to be). I understand how modern day vows are essentially sowing into marriages all manner of spiritual infrastructure intended specifically to be leveraged by the enemy for the destruction of God's purposes. I simply believe that the ultra-aggressive, hard-line response often sows equally bad seed and can easily be leveraged as well.
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I have found myself many times in life being very right while being very wrong. I am learning these lessons myself and God is dealing with me about being enough of a man to suffer wrongs for the greater good and to have enough real strength that I can truly be gentle in it's expression. So often outward displays of strength are mere cloaks of inward weakness. Maybe no-one else can relate to what I am saying but I trust that I am not the only one in need of these lessons.

Someone I know who is definitely an extraordinarily strong person who has done exploits beyond what most of us have even dreamed, shared about a critical moment in his life with a fellow missionary. He had to break the news of the tragic death of the man's wife upon return from the backwoods seeing God do wonders among an indigenous people. The man who lost his wife very much lost his cool and took out his anger upon the leader in the form of beating him to the ground. The leader just took it without resistance for the love of his friend and the grief in which he was seized. (The leader was the physically stronger man as well, so he was certainly not a victim of being overpowered.) I want to be the kind of man who has that kind of strength without even a hint of an Ahab spirit, but the kind of strength that causes "the gates of hell to not prevail" and knows when to wield the power and when to harness it's force. All pride to death, a truly selfless in-conquerable power, that just is. A deposit of His divine nature, unembellished by the flesh and un-amplified by hidden insecurities.

I still think that faith and patience are the best way to "inherit the promises", to be "mature and complete, not lacking anything". God himself will watch over His own word to perform it, provided we stay so engaged.

Sincerely,

Curtis

P.S. I will refrain from further posts to this thread until I have caught up with the reading of everyone else's.
 
Curtis said:
I still think that faith and patience are the best way to "inherit the promises", to be "mature and complete, not lacking anything". God himself will watch over His own word to perform it, provided we stay so engaged.
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No argument there, Curtis. Just ... sometimes we have to exercise that love, faith, and patience while moving ahead, and accepting apparent "loss", while believing FIERCELY that it isn't the end of the story, and when the story has reached its end, GOD and patient LOVE will have won out.

I believe that several men on this list are in variations of the same position -- patient, loving waiting for God's intervention.

As to harshness, ... I understand Dr Ray's heart. He's one good and compassionate man. And I seriously doubt that a hard, harsh line is his intent.

Au contraire, it can be very validly pointed out that it only took ONE bite of an "apple" for us to all end up sinful and worthy of DEATH! So our transgressions are never to be taken lightly. They always have ramifications, and they're not necessarily light. I would guess that is his point.

(I'm spouting more or less for the fun of seeing DrRay's reaction, and whether I read him right! Bring it on, Doc!)

Regardless, our job, especially as men, is to imitate God's dealings towards us. Of that I am convinced. And so far as I can tell, despite our constant and flagrant in-His-face violations, God's dealings with us ALWAYS start and proceed from COMPASSION. Even when He KNOWS they've gotta end at JUSTICE. Do you know how hard that is? To administer justice when your heart is weeping with compassion? NOW we're getting the picture of His heart towards us!

And, I contend, it is our PRIME task as men in this world to do likewise. Relate to everyone in our care STARTing from compassion. If we're not there yet, it isn't time to relate yet. (Well, ok, when we're partying, going skiing, or splitting firewood, those situations call for different emotions, but you understand ...)

Ok, that's my impassioned speech for the moment.

Btw, I LOVED the story of your missionary friend. Oh, to have that level of compassion!

Cecil
 
Some good stuff here, guys.

And, Curtis, I very much both emphasize and appreciate your testimony --
particularly the part about being very right while being very wrong and suffering for it; that, too, is another witness of how we must "wait on Him". Sometimes it ain't easy.

May He give us all the strength to continue to trust in His promises, and know that "those He loves, He chastens".

Blessings,

Mark
 
This makes me think of the debate between what our rights are and what is the wisest thing to do. A man has the right to do just about anything he wants to but is it always wise to assert these rights?

SweetLissa
 
This makes me think of the debate between what our rights are and what is the wisest thing to do. A man has the right to do just about anything he wants to but is it always wise to assert these rights?
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A big part of the problem there, Lissa, is that people no longer have any idea about what the word "Rights" once meant. (It was even capitalized in the Declaration, etc.)

The general principle (Jefferson, et al) was that a Right was something given by God, but with the clear understanding that it could in no way involve coercion or theft from another; this principle is right out of the Ten Commandments. That is obviously not true when most use the word today, whether the coercion involves housing, "health care", or education.

I often note that the term "God-given Rights" is simply never used any more - particularly by those in government or the media which serves it. The PC term is now "civil liberties"; any check in a modern law dictionary will show that those things are all in reality government-granted privileges.

The bigger question still remains, "what action is consistent with His Word?" Remember that our word is to be our bond, even "to our own hurt" (Psalm 15:4). When we choose "another master", we choose his "standards" for law, justice, and even slavery as well. (Deut. 30:19)


Blessings,
Mark
 
Curtis and Telecaster,

I've been researching biblical marriage for a few years now and I too have heard some incredibly arrogant and insensitive would-be polygamous husbands complain when their wife hesitates. They are quick to point out their wife's duty to submit to their "leadership," but neglect to truly love them as Christ does the church. Many of them never realize that to force a woman who isn't fully willing to welcome another woman into the home into polygamy would completely break her heart. Women as a part of their nature need to feel special, loved, etc. One of the worst things a man can do to a wife is to make her feel common or part of a collection.

In studying the OT law, I've come to see that plural marriage can be godly and beautiful. However, a man would have to be absolutely crazy to pursue PM with a reluctant wife. Whether she liked it or not, whether she meant to or not, she would feel trampled and it would poison any possible plural relationship. However she might try to play along, her feeling of being betrayed would manifest itself in all the seemingly inconsequential little things, making her and everyone around her completely miserable ala Proverbs 21:19 and 27:15. A plural marriage which could've brought happiness and joy to all would become an intolerable (and likely short-lived) cage from its inception.

Sure, men have a God-given right to direct their families. Sometimes that comes down to making uncomfortable decisions. Throughout those times in my life, my wife (generally speaking) looked to me with trust that I was caring for her long-term interests. The last thing I'd be foolish enough to do is to violate that trust by trying to manipulate her into polygamy! Marriage is not a solo act; it requires the full participation of all parties. The fact that you'd likely have to face (at best) social ostracism only emphasizes the point. I am confident, like TC, that if God leads a man to something as potentially treacherous as plural marriage in our modern age, He will draw the wife to it as well. It's a great way for a husband to know whether it's from God or just fleshly desires. If a wife wants polygamy despite our westernized culture, then that could possibly be a sign of His leading.

Anyway, I didn't write this as a slam to anyone (especially not Cecil). I'm just glad that there are those out there who realize polygamy is biblical and are still "man" enough protect their wife's heart. Or should I say, wise enough to know when to take -- and when not to take -- a legitimate biblical option. Nice to meet you both.
 
Amen to that Joe!

Thank you for being "man enough," to share your heart and be transparent with your thoughts/convictions regarding pm! :D
That was the point I was trying to make in my earlier post. I do whole heartily agree that pm is Another form of a Godly ordained marriage, and that in Christian families God has set in place the roles of Husbands and Wives. We women being Christian God fearing & God honoring Submissive Helpmeets to our dh's, are to first & foremost follow Yeshua's lead along with our dh's lead in all things. Yes if Yeshua has "called you out of the boat so to speak," to step out in faith into the un-chartered waters of PM, then as the "Spiritual Head of your home," you should speak these new found Biblical Truths to the lovely wife of your youth. However, when doing so if it has been the husband with this new calling, then I would believe that Yeshua would prefer that these husbands share these new convictions by "Speaking the Truth in Love!" Not our own selfish verisons of what we think love is, but Yeshua's example to us of SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN ALL AREAS OF LIFE IN HIS VERSION OF LOVE! Jesus has instructed all men of God to Love their wives, and women to Respect their husbands, as he knows each of our greatest needs as humans. "They'll know we are Christians by our Love." :D

By all means I do understand the authority of Yeshua in our lives, and the Spiritual covering and authority of our husbands that God has placed Christian wives under. I would never recommend that wives usurp or rebel from Yeshua's or their dh's spiritual authority in their lives. I in fact would suggest, that as either the husband or the wife who may feel "called to pm," more than likely it is usually the dh's calling, for both of them to be in prayer, fellowship and study Together. Doing so by seeking Yeshua's will, and not just their own fleshly desires & taking scripture out of context to meet their own needs. As we are told to compare and line up all issues of life to God's Holy words to us, through the scriptures. I would imagine that the path of pm is one of adventure, trusting in Yeshuas will & timing, ups & downs as it will be such a huge learning and growing journey for all involved! I don't feel it's something that should be taken lightly and without consideration of everyone's feelings, thoughts, dreams, hopes, fears or concerns.

Just because a woman may feel fear or sadness over the loss of her special, unique and private relationship that she once had with her dh, on the beginning of the pm path, doesn't mean she's selfish or trying to rebel against Yeshua's or her dh's authority in her life. We are all Human complete with human feelings, that cannot just be easily turned on & off like a light switch. We are a feeling group of people, as God created us. However, as we all know our feelings can toss us about like the waves of the sea and can be very fickle! As brothers and sisters in Christ, we are all striving to learn to balance and control our feelings and emotions. Giving them over to the Lord in prayer by faith, for Yeshua's will to be done in each of us. Again, I'm not saying that we let our emotions control our life choices. But none the less, we all need to be "in tune with our emotions," being able to share them with our spouses at all times through respectful and compassionate conversations. And if the husband or wife has felt "A Call to Pm," then that couple should do so in a respectful and compassionate way with one another. Keeping communication Open, Honest, Humble, Transparent & God Honoring. Neither the husband or the wife should just have "some God given right," to forge full steam ahead into any important life choice like a heart-less steam roller. I don't believe that Yeshua will bless those types of endevors, as He knows the True motives of our hearts.

We have to take heart and remember, just as the unbeliever was once in the darkness of this world and couldn't possibly "see the Light, until Saved," The woman or man, who has been in the darkness to the deception of monogamy all of their lives aren't going to easily come to the Truth of Biblical PM by force either. As Yeshua has given us all Free Will, and being the gentlemen that He is, never forces himself on anyone. We didn't find Him, as Yeshua was never lost! He was there waiting all along for us to respond to Him. So as not to make an idol out of pm, I believe that it is another Choice of a God ordained marriage. If Yeshua calls some couples to it, with our Free Will he lovingly waits for us to respond to Him in that calling. Just as the men of God who are called to pm , they should lovingly wait for their wives to respond to Yeshuas call to them in it. All along continuing to study, pray and discuss God's leading regarding pm with the wife of their youth. I suppose it would be a different story, once both the husband & wife agree on the calling to pm, and step out in faith into pm, and the wife then at that point in time would continue to rebel against God and their husband in that calling. Then that behavior could be called selfish or somewhat in rebellion. Again until the both the husband & wife are in Yeshuas will and in total agreement, the journey should be one of compassion, respect and flexibility with one another. All the while, the wives submitting to their dh's authority in their marriages. It's a balancing act, not so black & white, as it's a learning journey for all.

I was honeslty trying to get the insight into the men of God that are called to pm, in regards to their "feelings & emotions," that would be wrapped up in the journey. I wasn't questioning the man's spiritual authority in his marriage or encouraging the wife to just flit around on every emotion that comes her way and not obey Yeshua or her dh. How as men of God, being called to pm are you or have you taken great strides to encourage, comfort, respect, love and reassure the wife of their youth of their never ending love and devotion to them. How if at all, have you men of God shared your heart, thoughts and ideas/dreams with your first wives, while seeking out another wife. That's the part that sometimes, my mind has trouble fully wrapping around. Not having trouble with my dh's spiritual authority in my marriage. Again, my dh hasn't fully come into the Light/Truth of biblical pm. He is only reacting to it in the way that he was raised to believe, which is normal to an extent. He's not rebelling against some God given right to pm, as he isn't understanding it as a biblical truth in the first place at this season of his life. Just as women that were raised in that mind set, neither are they selfish or usurping their dh's authority when they still haven't "seen the light yet." Ahh, such a long journey of trust & faith. As we're all works in progress, thank God that he isn't done with any of us just yet! ;) Those who feel that they've arrived, usually have the furthest to go! Thanks again to all who have once again listened to the ramblings of my heart! :)

FOR HIS GLORY ALONE,
Faithful Servant
 
So if I don't want my husband to have more than one wife, all I have to do is have a reluctant heart?

I understand compassion and all that but our job as wives is to submit to our husbands, not to tell him all the reasons he shouldn't follow God. Just suppose he prefers to follow my heart than God's leading, who is then becoming God to the husband.

So yes, a husband needs to be sensitive to the needs of the wife but he can't let her be the leader.

And what happens when wife #1 agrees and then changes her mind? Just food for thought here.


SweetLissa
 
...who is then becoming God to the husband?
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That is a vital point, Lissa -- and one which goes right to the heart of the "Monogamy Idol" in so many ways.

Sometimes it's important when we claim to be "obedient" to God that we learn to listen to our ASSUMPTIONS -- and cultural bias plays a big part in that. Or, more often, in NOT doing that.

For example, it seems to be accepted that for men, "it's always about sex". And for women, it's "natural" that she must want to be "the only one". Any other possibility is treated with suspicion, if not ridicule.

There are probably more exceptions to both of those "rules" than most of society would like to admit, as longer-term participants here can no doubt attest.

And until we learn to "tune out" the loud voice of popular opinion, pagan-based tradition, and corporate churches, it will be hard for most folks to hear any "still small Voice" through "itching ears".
 
sweetlissa said:
So if I don't want my husband to have more than one wife, all I have to do is have a reluctant heart?

I understand compassion and all that but our job as wives is to submit to our husbands, not to tell him all the reasons he shouldn't follow God. Just suppose he prefers to follow my heart than God's leading, who is then becoming God to the husband.

So yes, a husband needs to be sensitive to the needs of the wife but he can't let her be the leader.

And what happens when wife #1 agrees and then changes her mind? Just food for thought here.


SweetLissa
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The thing with submission is once you submit... In this hypothetical, agree to PM, you don't go back. Just as in a vow. So a truely submissive wife can't back out on her own and be on solid ground.

I think what should be added is that if the husband feels truely called and the wife does not, then the husband needs to lead his wife into the calling.

A lack of submission is a sign of issues with a wife's walk with God also, so if the husband is right about PM and the wife will not submit, there is a yoking issue that should be corrected before another wife is brought in.

An example I could give is several years back T-C wanted to and felt lead to move to a city that I did not want to go to, and I could not see any reason why God would take us there. It was away from a church that we were serving in and leaving would be a burden to them. But I finally submitted to the consinderation of moving and house shopping. I prayed and put it in God's hands saying, " I will submit but help me understand why. I feel and think this is wrong, if I am wrong, correct me now, if he is wrong please show him. Thanks Daddy -God" ;) HE is the only father I have. So I went to my 'Dad'.
The short version is "Dad" corrected T-C, and I learned to trust God through the husband He gave me.

Think of it as that old saying, "I'm not saying No, I'm just saying Not Now."
 
Greetings Brothers & Sisters in Christ,

Please forgive me if I did not clearly state my thoughts, or if I've offended anyone. I did go back and read my earlier post, and no where in it have I encouraged or promoted any women of God to usurp Yeshaua or their husbands spiritual covering and authority in their marriages in any way shape or form. I think my main points were glossed over and not understood.

Again I did not and do not choose to make an idol of monogomy, western traditional churches, pagan practices or pm for that matter. Weather our "brain washing, false teaching on Biblical Marriages are wrong or not," none the less until one is truly saved and comes into the light of the Truth of Biblical PM then those false teachings are whats normal to most people, like it or not. God deals with each of us in His own ways, and in His own timing which doesn't always line up with our specific wants. Just a fact of the Christian life.

When a couple marries for example, and both are not saved at that time, then No they are not unequally yoked. One, be it the husband or wife becomes saved after the marriage and the other one is "dragging their feet in unbelief to the changes of their now saved spouse." Does Yeshua instruct us to drag our partner to the alter of salvation kicking and screaming? No Yeshua again is a gentleman, waiting for us to grab onto His hands, on His arms that are never too short to reach us right where we're at. All I was trying to say is that in the beginning of anyone's journey with pm, if the other spouse that hasn't felt called to pm, or hasn't even begun the journey of prayerful study to even know that it is another form of a Godly marriage, then that "called spouse" should strive to be Christ like and extend the same Mercy & Grace that Yeshua always extends to us! I'm again, not trying to extend an option of open rebellion to Yeshua's or husband's spiritual covering & authority in any Christian woman's marriage. I am however suggesting that the "called spouse," be a spouse that endevors to be Christ like in all areas of their marriage. In doing so, learning to keep an Open, Honest, Respectful and compassionate communication with the first wife of their youth. Covering her in prayer, studying with her, listening to the concerns & dreams of her heart, while sharing his dreams, concerns and fears as well.

Once both in the marriage have agreed to step out in faith, into pm then both of them should seek out and be committed to Yeshuas will in their lives. Which includes of course the woman of God knowing who she is to be, in her God given role and respect and follow her dh's lead and authority in their marriage, weather the pm path is hard for her or not. I'm just hopeful that if said wife should still have fear or difficulty with pm, while doing her best to remain submissive and encouraging and supporting her dh's spiritual authority, that said hubby would strive to do his best to reassure his wife of his unending love and devotion to the first wife of his youth, striving to love her as Christ instructs all men of God to love their wife/wives. Yes following dh's lead in all things, but with the understanding of hubby not being a worldly prideful cave man who beats on his chest while walking all over his wife/wives hearts! ;) So yes, Both Submit to Yeshua and to one another, with the women of God submitting to and following her dh's lead and final decisions in all things!

I also was hoping to hear from the men of God who have felt called to pm, what some of their testimonies, dreams, fears or concerns may have been in the beginning of their pm journeys. How they communicated those things with the first wife of their youth, how they comforted and reassured one another, while learning to step out in faith and submit to Yeshua in that calling. As my dh is still growing in the Lord and beginning to have more of a desire for the things of God, he still hasn't discovered for himself yet the biblical truth of pm. I can talk about it and encourage him in pm all day long,but until Yeshua convicts him of this truth, I cannot force him to accept it for himself. I can only do my best to keep it lifted in prayer for Yeshuas will to be done, and respect and follow his lead in all things. In the mean time, my dh continues to profess his never ending love & devotion to me alone, which is all he knows to be true & normal. He loves and cares for me so much, that he sees seeking a sw as a form of cheating on me. Again until the truth of pm is revealed to him and realized in his heart, that thought process is normal to him. Which I love, value and respect him so much for, as his love means the world to me! So as much as my dh can receive from me, I strive to discuss pm and encourage him to study and pray about it all, without trying to usurp his authority, or expect him to follow my lead as he is our spiritual leader.

Just some extra food for thought, that I know allot of first wives would love to learn and grow from on their pm journeys, nothing more nothing less. Harmless heart's pondering's from the first wives club, while Not promoting rebellion on any level. I pray that this be received in the manner and light in which it is intended. Take care all and continue to Lean on, Trust in and be Encouraged in Yeshua daily!

His Will Be Done!
Faithful Servant
 
And I don't want anyone to think I am cold hearted, because I am not. I just know that there has to be a balance. A husband has to lead his family. A wife has to follow. Time should be given (under the best of circumstances) for the wife to grow into the idea. But how long does a husband wait to see that their wife has decided to follow his lead? 1 year? 10 years? Forever? I don't want to seem harsh but like in T-C's post, we as wives need to trust God to work through our husbands. And sometimes that means taking a big-girl pill and growing up.

FS my answer was mostly to Joe88 because of how he started his post saying that a man shouldn't do PM if his wife had a reluctant heart. Even being the 2nd wife, there are times that I have a reluctant heart about submission, going to work, cleaning my house, even studying my schoolwork. That doesn't make any of those things wrong, simply not my choice at the time. As a grown up married woman, they are things I need to do anyway. PM has many blessings, but it also has many opportunities for growth and many opportunities to hurt others. There isn't really a manual, so we have to do the best we can, prayerfully and believing that God is in Control.

Love
SweetLissa
 
And sometimes that means taking a big-girl pill and growing up.
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That line really resonated with me, Lissa, because it hit pretty close to home.

Sometimes, FS, I probably come off as a bit blunt when it comes to issues like "Monogamy as idolatry". But I have learned that there is ultimately no point in trying to deny, or even soft-pedal the Truth.

And I will prayerfully try to tread carefully with what I say next. Many here know at least part of the story, and my intent is not to cast stones (although it's about time to put a few in the water next week or so -- for those who know that somewhat charming tradition based on the Biblical image of forgiveness as God casting our sins into depth of the ocean ;) ). As a husband, I understand that any and EVERY failure in a marriage is mine, and ultimately my responsibility. And that, too, is a reason for prayer and hope, and "waiting on the Lord", because I have faith that He is not done, and His promise of healing remains.

But there is a caution in my story for those who deal with issues of rebellion, and unwillingness to accept God's Word for what it says, whether as husband or wife.

Over ten years ago B, a former Catholic who had "studied for herself" and accepted not only the Biblical truth of patriarchal polygyny, but rejected a "Roman mindset" in favor of a more Hebraic one, based on the teachings of our Savior instead of the "traditions of men", became my second wife. We all three knew that it would not be an easy road - whether due to concerns of family, children, or a society that did not accept the Bible and was obviously headed for trouble. Over the course of those difficult, blessed, challenging, and wonderful years we made many mistakes, and learned many things.

And yet issues remained; some from abuse in her childhood, others from pain related to her earlier divorce, some from persecution, and many from mistakes that I made in failing to walk what is in fact a very narrow path. Strongholds remained, fortified by the Adversary for the only purpose that he ever uses them - to kill and destroy.

Many of the specific details of my own situation probably don't matter in this context. What is relevant is the "intermediate conclusion" (meaning again that I have no doubt that He continues to work in all our hearts, and chasten those He loves):

In spite of affirmations of faith, of love, of forgiveness - those strongholds REMAINED in her heart. I saw miracles of deliverance, and of healing -- and yet, as her husband, I always knew that there was something within her that was never freed from the Adversary, and never yielded over to God.

God several years ago gave me a vision of the immature, terribly hurt young girl within my beloved wife B who would one day be healed, but who had to grow up first. I understood that I was to cover her, comfort her, and wait on Him for that. I knew that it would be difficult, and I think I even saw the pain that would be required -- at least to some extent. And, again, I have no doubt that any failure is mine, although I know and accept that B is responsible for her rebellion before God as well. Yet she remains under my covering, and in my prayers.

When she left, it was, she said, not because she "didn't love me". It was, instead, because "the world" would not accept plural marriage. And yet I had long ago made, and honored, a promise that I would never deny her as my beloved wife. That is a commitment, like our Covenant itself, that I continue to honor, in spite of all that has happened since.

"Friendship with the world is enmity with God." (James 4)

So the point is this. God gives us free will. When a wife freely chooses to accept the covering of a man as her husband, she submits to his Authority in that relationship, as ordained by God. She is to commanded to submit to that Authority just as clearly as I as husband am commanded to submit to His.

I have yet to meet an earthly husband who has walked that path perfectly, or who doesn't have much to learn from the example of the singular Master, King, and Husband we seek to emulate. We fall short, we make mistakes, we fail. And yet that is no excuse before Him. He holds us responsible for what happens in our house (see Genesis 3:6, and read the first phrase of v. 7 VERY carefully if there is any doubt!) and for the vows made by our wives (Numbers 30:13-15).

We are to chasten in love, just as He does. We are to be patient, and kind, and longsuffering, and always willing to forgive.

But we do not do anyone any favors -- and that goes particularly for our wives, whom we are to love and cover -- when we fail to teach clearly, and speak His Word "boldly" as we "ought to" speak it! Yeshua, our teacher, and future Husband, never did any less.


Blessings in His love,

Mark
 
Greetings & Blessings to All,

I surely don't wish to drag this topic out, or to cast any stones or to judge & lecture any of the men of God here. Again I feel as though maybe I haven't clearly stated my thoughts, please forgive me if I'm offending, confusing or annoying anyone here! :) So to once again clearly state my belief as I feel Yeshua has taught and directed me to be in line with Biblical Submission for all women of Yeshua. YES all women of God should Submit to Yeshua and their dh's in ALL THINGS, INCLUDING BIBLICAL PLURAL MARRIAGE. And dear Sweetlissa, as I value and respect and enjoy your shared insights and Godly wisdom, I Do Agree with you in that, Yes we women of God are to follow, trust, respect and grow up into the women of God that we're called to be in our lives. Thus swallowing our pride and leaving our fears and prayer requests at the foot of Yeshua and taking "our Big Girl pill as you suggested." To step out in faith, doing whatever Yeshua has called us to do & doing it afraid in the beginning. Learning, striving, & growing into the women of faith that Yeshua calls us to do. And No, we women shouldn't on purpose drag our feet once we are united with our dh's in Christ to the call of pm, nor should we encourage them not to follow or obey Yeshua's calling & will for their lives either.

All I was stating is the simple fact that in anyone's beginning stages of pm, that it should not be taken lightly or jumped into too quickly without thoroughly seeking & following Yeshua's lead and His timing in all things. Stepping out in faith, being submissive and trusting that our dh's have heard from Yeshua and lovingly following our dh's lead. All along this journey, I was just sharing that both the husband and wife should Strive to be Christ like, Not Perfect or without flaws or hurt feelings along the way. Just hopeful that all involved in the pm journey would do their best to be mindful, respectful and supportive of each other's feelings, ideas or concerns along the way. Is that really asking too much? ;) Again, I'm not suggesting perfection on any level, or to encourage or enable any woman of God to remain selfish or immature once her & her husband are in agreement to living out the plural life. Yes of course as maturing Christians we all realize that walking the talk isn't an easy or care free path to travel in this life! I think setting up Godly Healthy Boundaries might help to make our path a little easier to navigate though.

Thanks Mark and Cecil for your shared testimonies and input, as I do value, appreciate and respect your positions. As women & as I'm speaking for myself here, I guess we're a little more into the details of our emotions, thoughts and feelings. We tend to like to hear all of the details of a growth process with anything, be it pm or whatever. Especially where my dh is concerned & our particular situation, I was seeking to learn how you all felt and dealt with any & all emotions, fears or concerns you may have had in the beginning of your pm journeys. Learning how you & the wife of your youth or second, third, etc wife worked through any issues or emotions that may have been hard to handle in the beginning. We women like the details and discussions of feelings usually more than men. We don't always need a map or an outline of how to obey "Steps A, B, C and so forth." We just want to be heard and share our hearts, while all the while submitting to and obeying Yeshua and our dh's in all things. Again, nothing more nothing less. ;) So very sorry if I have for some unknown reason struck a sour note with anyone here, as my intentions are not to correct, lecture, judge or offend. We learn and grow when share together as Brothers & Sisters in Christ, right? Go forth in His Holy Name, being a blessing to others and being blessed along the way! :D

FOR HIS GLORY ALONE!
Faithful Servant

I PRAY THAT I BE NOT A HINDRANCE!/PROVERBS 3:5-8 :)
 
I do believe there is a difference in leading a wife and using her as a slave. I know there have been times I am glad I listened to my wife. Yes Lissa it has taken me 10 years to get to the point with my wife that I am now with her accepting pm. However, I know that we have a very stable home for that next woman to come into now. I find no where in the Bible where a man is to force his wife to accept pm....if its not done out of love then I question your motive. There are things in my life that God has been dealing with me on for years and I am thankful he is patient with me. Should I not then be patient with my wife??? The blessing comes as we wait on the Lord...he will change the wife in her heart....men you cannot do that!!

Mr Kscouple
 
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