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The Husband’s Call to Love Is A Call to Rule

My point is not to apply Matthew 5 literally as either divorce or capital punishment, but simply to use it alongside other passages to show what I consider to be completely obvious and not really needing a scriptural proof anyway - the fact that the Head is in charge of the Body, both positively and negatively. My head decides to treat my body well usually - but on rare occasions needs to decide to risk or even allow harm to part of my body for a greater purpose. For example, if I have a splinter in my foot, I will require my foot to be hurt further in order to get the splinter out, knowing that the temporary pain is better than the long-term implications of not removing it, even though my foot doesn't like it much AND I feel that pain JUST AS STRONGLY as the foot does. Or I may require my hand to go somewhere dangerous in order to retrieve something of value, risking injury for a greater purpose. My head must make both positive and temporarily "negative" decisions regarding my body, as part of good management of my body.

If the husband is the head of the wife, it is his role to primarily treat her with love and care - but sometimes that love and care may involve getting her to do something she doesn't want to do. Just as I have to require my foot to go through something it doesn't "want" to go through. This I feel is self-evident and inherent in the concept of a head-body relationship.

When it comes down to the day-to-day implications of this, I think you and I are almost 100% on the same page. But we're splitting hairs over how to talk about the tiny little proportion of the time when a husband might need to take control of a less-than-ideal situation.
 
Agreed. The essence of "ruling" is that you use force to compel people to do what you want them to do, even if it's not what they want to do.
I think it goes without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway, that that's why I think it's the wrong word to apply to our wives. Not scripturally supported as an instruction to husbands re how to relate to their wives (which is how this thread started), and just not good mental hygiene for practical reasons.

And that's before you get to this reality: You can't force a woman to do anything she doesn't want to do without sowing resentment and/or discouragement that you will pay back with interest, and you can't force her to do anything in this culture without risking going to prison. Guilt manipulation can be thought of as a kind of compulsion (see point one re resentment/discouragement), but force is just force (see point two re prison).
 
My point is not to apply Matthew 5 literally as either divorce or capital punishment, but simply to use it alongside other passages to show what I consider to be completely obvious and not really needing a scriptural proof anyway - the fact that the Head is in charge of the Body, both positively and negatively. My head decides to treat my body well usually - but on rare occasions needs to decide to risk or even allow harm to part of my body for a greater purpose (e.g. if I have a splinter in my foot, I will require my foot to be hurt further in order to get the splinter out, knowing that the temporary pain is better than the long-term implications of not removing it, even though my foot doesn't like it much AND I feel that pain JUST AS STRONGLY as the foot does). My head must make both positive and temporarily "negative" decisions regarding my body, as part of good management of my body.

If the husband is the head of the wife, it is his role to primarily treat her with love and care - but sometimes that love and care may involve getting her to do something she doesn't want to do. Just as I have to require my foot to go through something it doesn't "want" to go through. This I feel is self-evident and inherent in the concept of a head-body relationship.

When it comes down to the day-to-day implications of this, I think you and I are almost 100% on the same page. But we're splitting hairs over how to talk about the tiny little proportion of the time when a husband might need to take control of a less-than-ideal situation.
I get what you're saying here, just want to point out that here and elsewhere you're staying away from the word "rule", for what I think are obvious reasons. You and I can have this conversation, but it's not the same one I'm having (so far) with Pacman and others re the perceived need to think in terms of "ruling" our wives, which Pacman has already stipulated is a very specific concept including compulsion of unwilling subjects.

I could re-iterate some stuff here but it would just be redundant, and I've got to take care of some other matters. More when time permits.
 
And that's before you get to this reality: You can't force a woman to do anything she doesn't want to do without sowing resentment and/or discouragement that you will pay back with interest
Disagree on this point based on personal experiences. This is actually exactly what saved my marriage. And it is better now than it has ever been. From her perspective as well as mine.

just not good mental hygiene for practical reasons.

Mostly agree here if it is all you focus on. But as I have been trying to say the entire time it is a part of how I love her.
 
So how does Christ example this?
Broken fellowship, blessings withheld (some of which we may not even realize until eternity) overturned tables of the money changers, open public rebuke of those in rebellion and or pride, and ultimately eternal damnation for those who refuse to accept him as Saviour. This is just what I thought of off the top of my head.

For an old testament example how about the defeat in war and the bondage that he ordained as punishment for the nation of Israel and Judah.

Ezekiel 23 also gives us a bit more of a direct example.
 
It also seems to fit every passage that I can think of about how a wife is supposed to behave towards her husband.

Not a command to the husband but it does seem to support the idea that he is her lord.

1 Peter 3:6
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
 
You say...

, so in the 21 posts since I've been on here last, no one has brought out a direct commandment or instruction for a husband to rule his wife, so I'm going to consider my "question one" answered in the negative—no such commandment is argued because no such commandment can be found.

yet the scriptures say...

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

The scriptures don't command it because it is inherent in the role of husband; rule over wife and children is his by right just as much as Christ has authority over us by right. It is definitional to being a husband. That hierarchy in and of itslelf proves the point, but the meaning of head (master, lord, chief, supreme, ruler) seals the deal.

Either the husband is to rule or he isn't. To say the husband is not to rule the wife contradicts:
  1. How the scriptures characterize the husband.
  2. The expectations of an elder.
  3. The commands to the wife for how she aught to obey.
  4. The very order of creation.
There is (or ought to be) an essential oneness between the woman and the man, within which "ruling" the woman would make about as much sense as "ruling" one's foot or pancreas.

Does not the head control the foot? What say does the foot have in where it moves? Even your own analogy laughably fails. Spiritual oneness in marriage is achieved the same way it is achieved by us with Christ: when she/we die to self and submit our will to our lord. When she obeys him as unto God their wills are aligned and they act as one.

The problem isn't the scriptures, it's your viewpoint on marriage...

The man's "power over" the woman was an artifact of the fall
Agreed. The essence of "ruling" is that you use force to compel people to do what you want them to do, even if it's not what they want to do.

Authority and power over woman is bad. Rule is negative. A ruling husband can't be one with his woman. This is the feminist view through and through. And exactly backwards from how the Bible characterizes it.

No, none of this is nice or acceptable to the world or the unicorns and rainbows version of marriage. I don't care. Feminism and equality has killed marriage in this country. It doesn't work. Patriarchal rule does.

If a husband has no right to rule over his wife then neither does God over us. HOW that rule plays out (i.e. if it is done in an understanding and loving way) is another matter. Obviously husbands aught to rule in a loving and understanding matter. But rule and authority are not inherently negative.
 
Disagree on this point based on personal experiences. This is actually exactly what saved my marriage. And it is better now than it has ever been. From her perspective as well as mine..

I strongly second that. Both in my experience and in observing countless others. Frankly, I struggle to think of an excellent marriage where the husband wasn't strongly in control.

Though I'm sure there is some exception somewhere. But then, I've met lots and lots of whipped husbands suffering from Stockholm syndrome who said they had great marriages; but what could plainly be observed was quite different. Some of that was self deception. But some of that was simply a lack of vision; not realizing what a marriage where oneness exists is like.
 
Hi Samuel.

Please look at my photo. This is the face that approximates the countenance on me as I write this. I am further assuming that your photo is just as representative of your approach to addressing these 'heady' issues.

I therefore have some comments, but I wanted to start off by requesting that you recognize that much of what I'm going to write is playful. It doesn't mean I'm not taking the subject matter seriously -- just that I'm not taking it too seriously. And that it's important that we engage in these discussions with the kind of love Christ instructed us to engage in with everyone with whom we associate.

We must ensure that our exegesis of Genesis aligns with the exegesis found in scripture. And Paul's exegesis of this passage is as follows:
1 Corinthians 11:3,8-9
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. ... For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

So according to Paul, man is the head of woman, not because of the fall, but because the woman was created from him, and for him. He doesn't mention the fall at all. He sees this as something existing from creation.

And perhaps, when we're exegeting exegetion of someone as profound as Paul, we should ensure that we can exegetically support any assertion we make of what the subject matter of the exegesis in question actually was. Which is to ask, how did you determine that I Corinthians 11:3 and 8-9 were exegetic interpretation of the Genesis head passages? That doesn't occur to me as immediately obvious, especially given that you removed the overall context of that part of I Corinthians 11, which was a discussion of whether or not a woman should cover her head or have tresses under certain circumstances. At best, that's a discussion that uses headship as a justification for women having more head hair than men, but it avoids any discussion relevant to our disagreements over whether husbands are to rule over wives.

[I also feel compelled to add that it's probably almost always essential to note at what point in his ministry Paul said things. For example, I Corinthians was written during the Acts period when Paul still predominantly identified himself as a Jew and had not yet revealed the full extent of the Mystery of Grace. Later on, after the Acts period, once Paul had received full revelation, many topics fell right off his written radar, which would indicate that they lost some significant degree of relevance for him. I suspect once he was in prison his lack of sartorial commentary was quite purposeful.]

I think this is actually completely consistent with @Keith Martin's proposal that Eve may have been created from a sexual organ rather than a rib (I don't know whether that's correct, I'm just accepting it for arguments sake in this post). So, the original human had a head (in control), and various body parts (under the control of the head). Then one of those body parts was taken and formed into a separate being. But that part was not the head. The original head remained on the man. Thus the authority remained with the man.

And thus the woman had no authority, because she was made without a head. Oh, whoops, that's right -- she actually had a head, too.

I'm not disputing that it is appropriate for husbands to be heads of households; I'm just disputing that there is a logical progression from (a) what body parts were removed from Adam to (b) any conclusion whatsoever about who has authority over whom. For that matter, God could have taken off Adam's head, formed a helpmeet companion out of it, and created a partnership in which the headless Adam still would have been the 'head' of the partnership -- a partnership in which the two would thoroughly depend on each other to be whole because one would be all brain and no brawn and the other one all brawn and no brain, experiencing ultimate passionate bliss when holding hands like a couple of Star Trek mind melders.

We are on solid ground when we contemplate parables and metaphors as being accurate but generalized and fuzzy symbolic parallels to reality. We are instead walking in quicksand if we take the metaphors too literally, and we're up to our necks in quicksand when we start extrapolating on those metaphors to the point of assigning interpreted definitive additional meaning to them (e.g., because I'm the head I'm going to be the ruler). And, in addition to everything else about this part of the discussion, it happens to ignore the God-created biology of the head's relationship to the body. In modern scientific terms, the brain is decreasingly assumed to be in charge of the body. It is just the central processing unit, more of a 'server' than a command center. Our sense of self isn't even strictly located in the brain, instead taking up something akin to a holographic space probably located throughout our physical being and energy field (aura). Even the instructions that come from the brain are at the very least echoes of the original commands that come in a Creator-determined fashion from the genetic instructions encoded into every cell but most intensively from our reproductive organs. The old jokes about men being ruled by the lesser head actually have science behind them, and the same thing is true for women. Decisions are more frequently inspired in both men and women by hormones than they are by logic and reason.

All of which -- genes, chromosomes, DNA, cell structure -- are part of Father's very purposeful design.

1 Cor 12:22-26
Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

Well, amen to all that. The profundity is ripe on many levels, not the least of which occurred to me back in adolescence: if it weren't for the amazing uses to which a penis can be utilized to bring pleasure and relief to the rest of the body, it is so thoroughly uncomely that we'd probably otherwise hide it out of sight even from ourselves from the time we discovered it until the day we died. But, hey, all the other members rejoice right along with it!

But must not ignore:
Mat 5:29-30
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Side note tangential warning: not directly relevant but not entirely irrelevant, either: 'hell' is a mistranslation promoted by the corrupted textus receptus. The original word was 'Gehenna,' which was the landfill trash dump outside of Jerusalem, the invoking of which was akin to our modern-day use of the phrase 'white trash'. As in, "Might as well throw that offending eye in the trash as let it go on mucking things up!" or, "That person belongs in the trash dump."

So the take-home message is the same even sticking solely within this illustration. The head directs the entire body, lovingly and tenderly, but also fully. Absolutely this should be a loving and natural arrangement. However the authority of the head is still real. We are taught how to exercise that with care, love and restraint.

I agree that we are taught how to exercise our headship with care, love and restraint. And, at the same time, even though it may seem like semantics to you or others, I continue to assert that we improperly and extrapolate rather than stick to the plain meaning when we make the leap from headship to authority. The lead dog has no authority over the others in a dog sled race. One could very usefully assert that the lead dog is the head of the other strapped-together dogs just as the dogsled driver is the head of the lead dog just as Christ is the head of the dogsled driver just as God is the head of Christ. But just because authority exists in some of those relationships doesn't necessarily imply that authority exists all the way down the chain, anymore than we could properly infer that it meant that lead dog is going to resurrect a follower dog from the dead (or that a widower is going to resurrect his dead wife) just because God did that for Christ.

It just may be that where this line of thinking goes wrong is when it translates headship as authority rather than perhaps more properly translating headship as being the one who is 100% responsible for how things turn out.
 
And I have a separate question -- just something I'm beginning to wonder: if we arbitrarily divided the men involved in the Biblical Families web site between those who actually have multiple wives and those who want to have plural families but do not, which of those two groups would be more likely to believe that it is the proper role of the husband to rule over the wife?

Another way to put the question to contemplate the same dilemma would be to ask, if we were to arbitrarily divide up the men here in another way, this time between those who believe husbands should rule over their wives and those who believe that wives are partners who stand shoulder-to-shoulder with us as we jointly navigate life's waters -- which group would one conclude would be more likely to be composed of men with plural families as opposed to being composed of men who just mostly wish they were the head of a plural family?

I'm not asserting that there's a 1-to-1 correlation, just that attitude may be one of the ways we can be guilty of strapping on our own mind-forged handcuffs.
 
That doesn't occur to me as immediately obvious, especially given that you removed the overall context of that part of I Corinthians 11, which was a discussion of whether or not a woman should cover her head or have tresses under certain circumstances. At best, that's a discussion that uses headship as a justification for women having more head hair than men, but it avoids any discussion relevant to our disagreements over whether husbands are to rule over wives.

The hierarchy of creation in 1 Cor 11 is the spiritual explanation for why a woman was to have a symbol of authority on her head. It is relevant to this discussion because it clearly establishes the husband as head (ruler) of the wife just as Christ is head of the man.

This wasn't some metaphor or commentary on hair styles. The headship of man over woman was so real God expected her to physically cover her literal head with cloth whenever she approached His throne in prayer.

[I also feel compelled to add that it's probably almost always essential to note at what point in his ministry Paul said things. For example, I Corinthians was written during the Acts period when Paul still predominantly identified himself as a Jew and had not yet revealed the full extent of the Mystery of Grace. Later on, after the Acts period, once Paul had received full revelation, many topics fell right off his written radar, which would indicate that they lost some significant degree of relevance for him.]

I flatly reject any attempt to toss out scriptures. If that was true, the early church would not have kept the writings nor added them to the Bible. Either Paul taught the truth or he didn't. It is worth noting that the women in ALL the churches -- whether Roman, Greek, Aramaic, African or Indian -- covered their heads while in prayer. And that was the universal, uncontroversial practice for 1900 years until feminism came on the scene and convinced women they were equal to their husbands and should not be subject to their authority.

But it's not true that Paul was somehow ill-informed. For even Peter in 1 Peter 3 echo'ed Paul's sentiments.
 
1 Peter 3:1-2

1 Likewise, wives, be submitted to your own husbands so that—even if some do not obey the messageby the wives’ conduct, without a word they may be won over
2 as they observe your pure, reverent conduct.

You do realise that this is speaking of a husband in rebellion to G-d, that the wife is being told to have patience and submit for the purpose of the husband's correction right? It's the answer to the question alot of women ask, What do I do if my husband is leading poorly? Nothing about a right to rule.

Forced compulsion, emotional manipulation, and threats of broken fellowship (divorce). Do you all think these are good leadership skills? Before some one says it's the only option with a wife in rebellion, these are being applied in conversation as a way to prevent a wife from being in rebellion.
Disagree. Our authority comes from God and it is not absolute but that does not mean that it does not include ruling.
verb
verb: rule; 3rd person present: rules; past tense: ruled; past participle: ruled; gerund or present participle: ruling
  1. 1.
    exercise ultimate power or authority over (an area and its people).
Daniel 3:16-18

Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king saying, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to answer you concerning this matter. If it is so, our G-d whom we serve is able to save us from the furnace of blazing fire and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. Yet even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods, nor worship the golden image that you set up.”

Here is an example of King, a Ruler, and he is being shown his authority is not the ultimate authority. In case anyone needs a reminder.

Romans 13:1

Let every person submit himself to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from G-d, and those that exist are put in place by G-d.

Proverbs 16:4

Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

G-d gave us authority to lead our families accord to His rule for His glory. Not to rule our families according to our wishes for our glory. For one, it's not our house. We are Stewarts and Shepards for the Lord. We are His servants. We are called to Shepard our wives and family. To lead. Leadership involves making the tough decisions, saying no, and correction. Good leadership involves that and compassion. Great leadership is following Yeshuas example which includes the previous forms of leadership plus forgiving and a willingness to sacrifice of yourself.

1 Corinthians 4:1-2

4 So let each one think of us in this way—as Messiah’s helpers and stewards of the mysteries of G-d.
2 In this case, moreover, what is required of stewards is to be found trustworthy.

.
 
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Disagree. Our authority comes from God and it is not absolute but that does not mean that it does not include ruling.

Here is an example of King, a Ruler, and he is being shown his authority is not the ultimate authority. In case anyone needs a reminder.

This statement actually proves my point. (although Nebuchadnezzar believed his power was absolute it clearly was not God has absolute power) I have not made any claim through the entire discussion that a husbands authority was absolute.

G-d gave us authority to lead our families accord to His rule for His glory. Not to rule our families according to our wishes for our glory. For one, it's not our house. We are Stewarts and Shepards for the Lord. We are His servants. We are called to Shepard our wives and family. To lead. Leadership involves making the tough decisions, saying no, and correction. Good leadership involves that and compassion. Great leadership is following Yeshuas example which includes the previous forms of leadership plus forgiving and a willingness to sacrifice of yourself.

I 100% agree
 
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emotional manipulation, and threats of broken fellowship (divorce). Do you all think these are good leadership skills?

Not even close to what I am suggesting. These are terrible ways to behave and are not leadership at all.
 
Before some one says it's the only option with a wife in rebellion, these are being applied in conversation as a way to prevent a wife from being in rebellion.

By whom? If you are referring to the examples I gave about how Christ attempts to compel obedience those are not necessarily specific suggestions for what a husband should do. They are simply an answer to the specific question that was asked.
 
This statement actually proves my point. (although Nebuchadnezzar believed his power was absolute it clearly was not God has absolute power) I have not made any claim through the entire discussion that a husbands authority was absolute.



I 100% agree
Ultimate authority is the claim of Rulers by definition. I'm not saying you actually said it and your obviously not meaning to imply it, but the term to rule does say it.
By whom? If you are referring to the examples I gave about how Christ attempts to compel obedience those are not necessarily specific suggestions for what a husband should do. They are simply an answer to the specific question that was asked.
The subject has been touched several times by several people outside your convo with VV76 about how to compel your wife to follow. Those were themes brought up not only from those promoting the idea but also pointed out by those opposed to the idea. I was making a statement for the purpose of jump starting the thought process and refocus on what is good leadership skills. The statement was not an accusation or directed specifically at you.

For any who think themselves a King. Here's a warning from G-d what a king will claim as his right, not that G-d gave the the right.

1 Samuel 8:7-18

7 Then Adonai said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you. For they have not rejected you, rather they have rejected Me from being king over them.

8 Like all the deeds that they have done since the day I brought them out of Egypt to this day—forsaking Me and worshiping other gods—so they are doing to you also.

9 So now, listen to their voice. However, you must earnestly forewarn them, and declare to them the rulings of the king who will reign over them.”

10 Now Samuel reported all the words of Adonai to the people who were asking him for a king.

11 “This will be the practice of the king that will reign over you,” he said. “He will draft your sons and assign them as his charioteers and horsemen, and they will run before his chariots.

12 He will appoint them as commanders of thousands and captains of fifties, also some to plow his fields, reap his harvest, make his weapons of war and the equipment for his chariots.

13 Also he will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks and bakers.

14 He will seize the best of your fields, vineyards and olive groves, and give them to his courtiers.

15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage and give it to his officials and slaves.

16 He will also take your male and female servants, your best young men and your donkeys and make them do his work.

17 He will also take the tenth of your flocks. Then you yourselves will become his slaves.

18 When the day comes and you cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, Adonai will not answer you on that day.”

Rulership by a mortal was the will of the people. G-d warned us that a mortal Ruler will abuse the authority given to them in 1 Samuel. Then gave us one as a punishment for rejecting Him. Then reedemed us and set Himself up as the King as was intended. The only one who is sinless the only one who can rule perfectly.

There is a difference between a slave and a servant. A ruler subjugates.

bring under domination or control, especially by conquest.
"the invaders had soon subjugated most of the native population"
synonyms: conquer, vanquish, defeat, crush, quash, bring someone to their knees, enslave, subdue, suppress

Early in the thread someone posted that a husband's role is one of dominion over his wife because she was his helper and he named her, just as he named the animals. This is the mindset that leads to the actions that G-d had Samuel warn the people of Israel about mortal rulers.
 
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You can't force a woman to do anything she doesn't want to do without sowing resentment and/or discouragement that you will pay back with interest, and you can't force her to do anything in this culture without risking going to prison.
Completely disagree with the former although the latter is unfortunately true.

Jesus, our ultimate example of submission, begged the Father to take his cup from him.

Submission is not submission if it feels good or is easy. For instance, the "washing wounds" analogy (no matter how gently administered) is going to burn like hell.

Also, "nourishment" does not taste too good, especially when you've eaten junk food your whole life. ;)
 
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