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Talking or courting?

Mojo said:
I agree that radical feminism has been an absolute cancer on Western society. I did say radical, though. Many of the earliest feminists just wanted a seat at the table and a recognition of respect for their contributions. Most of them still wanted to be good mothers and dutiful wives.

But, we cannot discount the absolutely despicable behavior of many men. I cannot defend the behavior of predators and abusers.
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The early feminists were just as radical as the most recent ones. More so actually, as they were engaging in acts of terrorism like ax attacks and bombing churches. All feminism is cancer, all of it. It's all an attempt to upend God's hierarchy.

I do not say that there aren't men behaving badly nor that they shouldn't repent as well. But men are not the prime cause of the destruction of marriage. To make them a scapegoat is the miss the root of the problem.

Patricia C said:
As for me and my experience
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It has not gone unnoticed that both those who object to my defense of men stand on personal experience in rejection of the science of the matter.

If you are correct and men behaving badly is what ends marriage, why did God in His law give only men the authority to end marriage and not women? Why did the huge decline in marriage and increase in divorce come about after we allowed and encouraged women to divorce? Is not the law consistent with an understanding that the more easily deceived sex would destroy marriage if given the reigns?
 
Patricia C said:
Sean, this original thread is a question I posed in a singles area of BF and somehow it was hyjacked by multiple people. The question was written by a woman, for guidance and direction on new retaltiinships. And as of right now you have repeatedly attacked women all I have heard from you is bitterness and hate and it is louder then the scriptures you, share and believe in so much.
I am now asking you to please start your own thread. I am angry with your repeated attempts to shut all women down. Christ did Not win souls by hating them and condemnation but through Love and grace and showing a lot of Mercy! Yes Biblically we (women) are the "lesser of the two" in the since that man has been created as the head. That does not mean that women do not have a place or a voice in the Kingdom!
You have an attacking nature and I feel threatened by you. So, before I say anything else. Please show enough respect to leave this thread and start your own, where you and the other men can argue amongst yourselves.
Thank you
Shalom
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Patricia,

I understand you feel disappointed that your thread ended up totally off thre original topic. I must object to your personal attacks on Sean and your presumptions to judge a brother's beliefs and attitudes - his heart - when all he had done was quote scripture that you did not like. As a woman who loves God and his Word, I am myself disappointed that emotions trump scripture here, as in most of the world. Feeling a certain way about something does not change what is true or false, right or wrong. I believe that women are just as capable of understanding this basic state of reality as men are although it is more difficult for us as our emotions are so much more powerfully affecting upon our thinking unless carefully managed and disciplined. I object even more strongly that your feelings and emotions, which were not grounded in fact, led to a personal attack on someone's character for the offence of quoting and explaining scriptures in a way you did not agree with. Further, this attack was not only ignored, implying that its just fine and dandy, but was implicitly condoned by moderators by the decision to move the "offending" posts somewhere else. I find this offensive because it is (not because I feel it is).

Incidentally, I was reading and discussing fervently with my husband every step of his posts on this thread, so I find it ironic on a personal level that you claim he attempts to shut all women down.

To respond to your original post, biblically a married man does not need his wife's permission or involvement in order to begin a courtship, friendship, marriage or anything in between those stages with another woman. He can do any of those things and is not sinning against his wife or the other woman or God.

Edit- I see that the post with the personal attacks in is deleted now, quoted above. Not sure if you decided to retract your words or someone else decided it. I'm not very familiar with forum etiquette, so I'm imagining it's like a real conversation where things are said and can't be unsaid.
 
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FWIW personal attacks are very discouraged here and the expected dialogue is to be gracious though seasoned with salt if necessary. The moderators here are all volunteers and all work other jobs. We attempt to keep abreast of the conversations as they are happening but unfortunately that isn’t always possible. Whenever a thread goes off message, and especially when the OP requests it, we will split the thread. That’s just SOP.

@Rachel89 As with the other posters, I would ask you to please clean up and edit your post to info pertinent to the thread title. Thanks.
 
The original thread was when does talking become courting and what is acceptable for a woman talking to or courting a married man. Not the rights of men in courtship. I would suggest treating a courtship with a married man the same as one with a single man. That talking becomes courtship when intent is made clear.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
FWIW personal attacks are very discouraged here and the expected dialogue is to be gracious though seasoned with salt if necessary. The moderators here are all volunteers and all work other jobs. We attempt to keep abreast of the conversations as they are happening but unfortunately that isn’t always possible. Whenever a thread goes off message, and especially when the OP requests it, we will split the thread. That’s just SOP.

@Rachel89 As with the other posters, I would ask you to please clean up and edit your post to info pertinent to the thread title. Thanks.
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Thank you for the clarification I will do what I can to do right by th forum.
 
Patricia, I think a thought/question which comes alongside of your original on this thread is this. Because of the monogamos bias which has been perpetrated upon our generations in the western world, it has been considered strictly taboo for us as women to engage in conversation with married men at any level that goes beyond perfunctory and surface. We are labeled and castigated as floosies, flirts, sinners, indecent, home breakers, unspiritual, undesirable to be around, harlots, loose women, etc.--the list could really go on much longer. We've been told, "Don't even look a man in the eye when he speaks to you. That would lead him into thinking you might be interested." I've come to see such teachings as this as pure garbage. But then the question you've posed always arises--especially now that you've got an understanding of Biblical families. There are others who think it's perfectly okay for the guy to start or initiate the conversation, joke, or display a friendly approach, but Katie bar the door if you as a woman were to think of starting the same with a man or in some circles, even respond positively to his initiated approach! Nevertheless, it's definitley affected how we as women, if we value our reputation as a daughter of the Most High God, to be very circumspect in how we handle conversation with males. His wife would come after us. Other sisters in the church start the gossip train. It wouldn't take long for you to find yourself isolated and out in the cold simply because you've been judged and found wanting in everyone else's eyes with a seriously damaged reputation.

So, I for one, being very new to this environ, am most interested in hearing the thoughts of those much more at ease with establishing relationships from the BF perspective. Where are the lines, the boundaries? I hope I'm on target here with your original post. I sure hope several will pick this up and respond.

Kevin, I really appreciated your response: I would suggest treating a courtship with a married man the same as one with a single man. That talking becomes courtship when intent is made clear. Thanks.
 
@rejoicinghandmaid thank you for this very thought out and precise response. I struggle with the thought of being viewed as a dirty secret. I am also a babe in learning what the true BF looks like. In some areas I believe I have come leaps and bounds in my understanding other times not so much.... always feeling the conversation or time spent needs to be justified with the wife. Tread lightly as to not upset anyone when nothing has been done to justify.
I have friends I love so much but should the relationship progress naturally getting over the feelings of betrayal would be so difficult.
There is healthy guilt when you do something against God and then there is Guilt the enemy puts on us to keep us tied in bondage.
Loving deeply is a gift I believe God has given me. I have had 7 Foster children, 5 God Children, numerous spiritual children who still to this day check on me. One has even asked me to be her baby's grandma as she and her husband have lost their mothers. Not to forget or leave my biological children out. My female friends come to me for advise, guidence, council.
I long to have the lasting intimate love with my God given husband for life. I pray for "him" whoever he is.
I feel I am going through a deprograming process. The lightbulb is on but I can't put the puzzle together yet. I know Father can give me what I need to fully understand as quickly as He feels I am ready for it. Already many of the fears I have had are gone! Understanding is there! Now for the puzzle to come together.
 
Patricia C said:
@rejoicinghandmaid thank you for this very thought out and precise response. I struggle with the thought of being viewed as a dirty secret. I am also a babe in learning what the true BF looks like. In some areas I believe I have come leaps and bounds in my understanding other times not so much.... always feeling the conversation or time spent needs to be justified with the wife. Tread lightly as to not upset anyone when nothing has been done to justify.
I have friends I love so much but should the relationship progress naturally getting over the feelings of betrayal would be so difficult.
There is healthy guilt when you do something against God and then there is Guilt the enemy puts on us to keep us tied in bondage.
Loving deeply is a gift I believe God has given me. I have had 7 Foster children, 5 God Children, numerous spiritual children who still to this day check on me. One has even asked me to be her baby's grandma as she and her husband have lost their mothers. Not to forget or leave my biological children out. My female friends come to me for advise, guidence, council.
I long to have the lasting intimate love with my God given husband for life. I pray for "him" whoever he is.
I feel I am going through a deprograming process. The lightbulb is on but I can't put the puzzle together yet. I know Father can give me what I need to fully understand as quickly as He feels I am ready for it. Already many of the fears I have had are gone! Understanding is there! Now for the puzzle to come together.
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Patricia, it takes a great deal of courage to even think about trying to love again--openly, freely, as God intended, when you've been betrayed, abused, abandoned, or rejected. Unfortunately, those reasons seldom come in singles--they come in bundles :( ! Sounds like Yeshua has blessed you in many different ways as you've given of yourself to share your love with so many others. You can't put a price tag on those relationships, and no one can take those away from you. Rejoice in that--it sounds like you are!

Healing takes time--so much time sometimes. We often don't realize just how broken we've become until we heal and look back. That's when we see what it was, and sometimes it's appalling to realize where we once were. Only the Great Physician can bring that sort of healing. Other times we think we're good to go so we're saying to the Lord, "Okay, so what's next, I'm ready!" only to find out, He KNOWS we're not ready, and He's still accomplishing healing we didn't even know needed healing! Resting in His arms, absorbing His love, TRUSTING His perfect timing is critical for the healing to continue--DON'T get in His way, dear friend.

Can't wait to meet you. I'm on my noon hour and usually don't even have time then to do this, but decided I wasn't going to work through the noon hour today. :) May Yeshua's love shine so brightly upon you today that others can't miss the glow!
 
Kevin said:
That talking becomes courtship when intent is made clear.
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Good enough so far as it goes, but 'courtship' isn't a defined thing and different people have different traditions about how that goes. And that's just talking about the present day;tThings like the aforementioned "Don't even look a man in the eye when he speaks to you." haven't been commonly taught for 60 years or more.
 
rockfox said:
The early feminists were just as radical as the most recent ones. More so actually, as they were engaging in acts of terrorism like ax attacks and bombing churches.
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I'm not saying this is false, but do you have a reference or link? John Brown was an abolitionist, but he did not represent the broad coalition of abolitionists. A small group of radical feminist terroristsin the 1800s (when the movement started) would not represent the entire movement.

I won't highjack the OP any longer.
 
Mojo said:
I'm not saying this is false, but do you have a reference or link? John Brown was an abolitionist, but he did not represent the broad coalition of abolitionists. A small group of radical feminist terroristsin the 1800s (when the movement started) would not represent the entire movement.

I won't highjack the OP any longer.
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I am not familiar enough with the movement to say how representative they are. I can say though that philosophically, both equality and nicer forms of feminism all lead to the same end; they are simply waystops on the path to radical feminism.

I'll drop this now, open another thread if you'd like to continue. There is enough to talk about here on just understanding courtship. I'd love to hear folks put a good definition to it. It's too broad a spectrum to have much meaning on its own; ranging from arranged marriage where you at least get to see them first on one had to little more than dating with slight limits on the other.
 
rockfox said:
Things like the aforementioned "Don't even look a man in the eye when he speaks to you." haven't been commonly taught for 60 years or more.
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Then you haven't had to live in the Christian fundamental circles I've had to live in, because let me tell you, that concept is alive a well in pulpits in the 21st century!
 
rockfox said:
I'll drop this now, open another thread if you'd like to continue.
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Please do! And look into Victoria Woodhull, first female to run for president. She had strong occult connections. Also many were horrific racists.
 
rejoicinghandmaid said:
Then you haven't had to live in the Christian fundamental circles I've had to live in, because let me tell you, that concept is alive a well in pulpits in the 21st century!
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I suspected as much hence the 'commonly' part. My point was there is a confusing mix of ideas out there all called courting so it's hard to intelligently answer a question about "courting"
 
I think if two people decide they want to get to know each other with possibility of marriage-that’s courting.

It’s the phase past friendship but before engagement/betrothed.

Just because the Bible doesn’t spell out the rules for courting and identify it as courting doesn’t mean we can’t follow Biblical principles and perhaps make our own courtship an example to other families. If we’re focused on being found faithful to Him and His ways dating/courting is another relationship we live out in love for God.

Until a woman becomes a man’s he should treat her as though she is God’s daughter (of course afterwards as well, the responsibilities and intimacy changes after covenant).

Until a woman binds herself to the man....
She should be aware (as in really open your eyes) of what kind of a man you are pledging to love, reverence, and your OBEDIENCE to.

For the men it’s a process of figuring out- is this a woman I’m willing to love, protect, and provide for?

Building a relationship with the opposite sex and deciding against a marriage covenant can still end in a win/win situation if done properly - lifelong friends without baggage but only if you have proceeded with the “Touch not, taste not, handle not what isn’t yours”. If you follow these, innocent parties can walk away undefiled, able to present themselves right/pure before God and man.


A danger in “hover courting”, is not truly being able to see a person’s character because we can keep things shallow and emotionally charged.

Courting is a committed “getting to know you stage” before a naw, let’s go back to being friends or hey, I’d like to take this to a ‘will you be mine level.’ All my opinion...
 
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