• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

One Flesh - a biological perspective

steve said:
View attachment 4439
Notice especially the last sentence.

@windblown , that was awesome.
I learned something today.
Click to expand...
If that is true, then re-read the context and apply MY definition to the sex act. Does it make sense yet? BTW, never heard of contronym. interesting. Why would "cleaving" and "one flesh" be in the same phrase if they both mean the same thing? I maintain that to become one flesh you have to cleave, but not every cleaving results in one flesh. There truly is a difference in my distinction. Can a farmer plow a field and not plant seed? Does every seed produce a sprout? Now to be sure I sometimes feel like Oliver in Green Acres show in the 60's. I have tilled a small spot but the tractor broke, dang it. Needs new steering gear box.
 
Maddog said:
If that is true, then re-read the context and apply MY definition to the sex act. Does it make sense yet? BTW, never heard of contronym. interesting. Why would "cleaving" and "one flesh" be in the same phrase if they both mean the same thing? I maintain that to become one flesh you have to cleave, but not every cleaving results in one flesh. There truly is a difference in my distinction. Can a farmer plow a field and not plant seed? Does every seed produce a sprout? Now to be sure I sometimes feel like Oliver in Green Acres show in the 60's. I have tilled a small spot but the tractor broke, dang it. Needs new steering gear box.
Click to expand...
You are very clever with your cleaver, but I do believe that you are reading something into the meaning of the word.

Just throwing this out there, there is a cleavage when she separates from her parents, and then she is to cleave to her husband.
 
Maddog said:
I am sure glad that Mr Strong is inspired.
Click to expand...
His words are not inspired. The text is. And the text shows an opposite definition compared to your "divide". The Word of God shows the definition is quite literally the opposite of your idea.
Maddog said:
Besides you added to my definition to say something I did not intend. I did NOT say to cut apart and separate in half. That is asunder and that is what SHOULD NOT be done to the one-flesh.
Click to expand...
You said the flesh would be divided. I you mean the husband and wife cling to one another, then you're right, but you changed the meaning of scripture to a literal 180 degree opposite definition. If God's word says joined, you say divided, that's opposite. Joining two pieces of wood together with joinery and glue is the opposite of dividing the pieces of wood.

Here are those verses with the word cleave replaced with your word divide. Cleave and divide (in scripture) are two opposite words. The english language changed the meaning into a contranym over time because two old english words sounded similar.

Cleave has two homographs, each with a distinct origin. There is cleave meaning "to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly," as in "a family that cleaves to tradition"; that one is from Old English clifian, meaning "to adhere." And there is the cleave with meanings relating to splitting and dividing, which derives from Old English clēofan, meaning "to split."

All of these are proof that your word divide is an antonym of cleave.

Maddog said:
To Cleave is to Divide. A meat cleaver enters and splits flesh and is intimately touching said flesh. It's that simple. A meat cleaver does not lovingly and gently caress flesh. I believe that the old translators had an aversion to graphically representing dividing flesh and so created an opposite definition of being loving and cuddly and being "one".
Click to expand...

You say to cleave is to divide. In modern english that is correct. But the hebrew word dabaq has an opposite definition from "divide". It does not make any sense to change the word because it's the antonym, it's literally the opposite of what scripture shows with context.

NickF said:
Gen 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall divide H1692 unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Gen 19:19
Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil divide H1692 me, and I die:

Gen 31:23
And he took his brethren with him, and pursued after him seven days' journey; and they divided H1692 him in the mount Gilead.

Gen 34:3
And his soul divided H1692 unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel.

Num 36:7
So shall not the inheritance of the children of Israel remove from tribe to tribe: for every one of the children of Israel shall divide H1692 himself to the inheritance of the tribe of his fathers.

Num 36:9
Neither shall the inheritance remove from one tribe to another tribe; but every one of the tribes of the children of Israel shall divide H1692 himself to his own inheritance.

Deu 10:20
Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou divide, H1692 and swear by his name.

Deu 11:22
For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to divide H1692 unto him;

Deu 13:4
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and divide H1692 unto him.

Deu 13:17
And there shall divide H1692 nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

Deu 28:21
The LORD shall make the pestilence divide H1692 unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.

Deu 28:60
Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall divide H1692 unto thee.

Deu 30:20
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest divide H1692 unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Click to expand...


Do you see how changing the meaning from the scriptural meaning (glue together, hold fast) to the antonym "divide" is absolutely wrong?
 
steve said:
You are very clever with your cleaver, but I do believe that you are reading something into the meaning of the word.
Click to expand...
It goes far over and above reading meaning into a word when the word is substituted for it's antonym. It's changing the word wet for dry. Filled to empty, bitter for sweet, sin for obedience. Twisting scripture to this extent is serious business.
steve said:
Just throwing this out there, there is a cleavage when she separates from her parents, and then she is to cleave to her husband.
Click to expand...
There is no dabaq between her parents and her when she leaves them because that word does not mean divide at all, that word means the opposite of divide. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h1692/kjv/wlc/0-1/

When she leaves her family, her father natans (gives) her . https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5414/kjv/wlc/0-1/
 
I'm being particular on this because we must conform ourselves to His standards. And His definition supersedes our definition. If the world says women don't exist, that gender is no more. We don't conform to the modern definition. We don't conform to the modern definition of marriage being monogamy only. Why? Because God says His definition is different. And His ways are better.

My hope is that we will all be conformed to His image. And reject the world's ideas, standards, righteousness and perversion.
 
AbrahamSolomon said:
I believe we are all guessing what G-d Means.
Click to expand...
You may guess, but as for me, I will...
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15, KJVA

The Bible says don't eat unclean animals Lev 11 I don't eat, no guesswork, the Bible says don't touch a woman during her time of the month Leviticus 15:19 I don't touch woman, my wife or have sex with her, no guesswork, the bible says I am one flesh with a woman that I have had sex with Genesis 2:24, 1 Corinthians 6:16 EVEN if she has on children, no guesswork, it's that EASY.

AbrahamSolomon said:
I agree, but this meaning becoming one flesh is nothing more than a man having sex with a random women so it has very little or no real meaning.
Click to expand...
Then we had better watch who we have sex with then because the REAL meaning is you become one flesh.
 
Edward said:
You may guess, but as for me, I will...
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15, KJVA

The Bible says don't eat unclean animals Lev 11 I don't eat, no guesswork, the Bible says don't touch a woman during her time of the month Leviticus 15:19 I don't touch woman, my wife or have sex with her, no guesswork, the bible says I am one flesh with a woman that I have had sex with Genesis 2:24, 1 Corinthians 6:16 EVEN if she has on children, no guesswork, it's that EASY.


Then we had better watch who we have sex with then because the REAL meaning is you become one flesh.
Click to expand...
Don't sow seed while the river is running high.
 
Edward said:
You may guess, but as for me, I will...
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15, KJVA

The Bible says don't eat unclean animals Lev 11 I don't eat, no guesswork, the Bible says don't touch a woman during her time of the month Leviticus 15:19 I don't touch woman, my wife or have sex with her, no guesswork, the bible says I am one flesh with a woman that I have had sex with Genesis 2:24, 1 Corinthians 6:16 EVEN if she has on children, no guesswork, it's that EASY.


Then we had better watch who we have sex with then because the REAL meaning is you become one flesh.
Click to expand...
@Maddog @FollowingHim @steve @NickF

Do you believe that once you have (sex/become one flesh) is like marriage or is it temporary?
Prostitution is a sin so once this woman has had (Sex) not Marriage can she (Repent) and become (Married)?
If it is temporary for her then why is Prostitution a (Sin)? If it is a sin then can by (Repenting) free her?
Also, is she enslaved to that man? like a concubine and can he release her from this (slavery)?

On the other hand a Married Women who believed in G-d is unable to ever remarry as long as her believing Husband is alive.
 
steve said:
View attachment 4439
Notice especially the last sentence.

@windblown , that was awesome.
I learned something today.
Click to expand...
As if language wasn't complicated enough without a word not just meaning two things, but opposite things??

I am still really looking forward to YHWH un confounding language. Please. Someday.
 
Joleneakamama said:
As if language wasn't complicated enough without a word not just meaning two things, but opposite things??
Click to expand...
The word cleave in hebrew does not have two meanings.
NickF said:

Strong's H1692 - dāḇaq​

דָּבַק​

Transliteration
dāḇaq
Pronunciation
daw-bak'
Click to expand...
This word translated as “cleave”. Invariably means the opposite of the english homonym cleave/divide. It always means the opposite of divide. English speaking people over time took two similarish words even though they’re pronounced differently and combined them into a homologue.
NickF said:
There is cleave meaning "to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly," as in "a family that cleaves to tradition"; that one is from Old English clifian, meaning "to adhere." And there is the cleave with meanings relating to splitting and dividing, which derives from Old English clēofan, meaning "to split."
Click to expand...
There’s no reason to be confused since scripture uses the word consistently and accurately. It never means divide, always means something along the lines of join together.
 
MeganC said:
To further clarify this I and a lot of people I know do not see sex before a ceremony as a sin. Sex or consummation is the beginning of the marriage therefore there cannot be 'pre-marital' sex. The act of sex commences the marriage.
Click to expand...

Or at least Servitude very close to Marriage this means a woman who claims me as her 1 Master is almost a Wife the only part I believe is for me the Husband saying Yes she is my wife. This might very be why it is not a sin and prostitution is a sin.
 
AbrahamSolomon said:
@Maddog @FollowingHim @steve @NickF

Do you believe that once you have (sex/become one flesh) is like marriage or is it temporary?
Prostitution is a sin so once this woman has had (Sex) not Marriage can she (Repent) and become (Married)?
If it is temporary for her then why is Prostitution a (Sin)? If it is a sin then can by (Repenting) free her?
Also, is she enslaved to that man? like a concubine and can he release her from this (slavery)?

On the other hand a Married Women who believed in G-d is unable to ever remarry as long as her believing Husband is alive.
Click to expand...
Sex before marriage either makes you:
- Obliged to marry that woman, or
- Already married to that woman
depending on what your view on "one flesh" is. So some people in this discussion would believe one of the above statements, and the rest the other. The practical effect is the same - you break it, you buy it. You have sex with a woman, you are obliged to marry her.

There is no temporary relationship formed by having sex. There is a permanent obligation - an obligation to marry and be faithful to that woman.

When people say "sex before marriage is not sin", they do NOT mean "so you're free to do it as much as you like". What they mean is that if a couple jump the gun and have sex before their wedding, they are not sinning. The order of things doesn't really matter. What matters is that they actually commit to each other for life - provided they do that, it is irrelevant when they first started having sex.

That is all. Do NOT interpret this as a licence for immoral behaviour.
 
FollowingHim said:
Sex before marriage either makes you:
- Obliged to marry that woman, or
- Already married to that woman
depending on what your view on "one flesh" is. So some people in this discussion would believe one of the above statements, and the rest the other. The practical effect is the same - you break it, you buy it. You have sex with a woman, you are obliged to marry her.

There is no temporary relationship formed by having sex. There is a permanent obligation - an obligation to marry and be faithful to that woman.

When people say "sex before marriage is not sin", they do NOT mean "so you're free to do it as much as you like". What they mean is that if a couple jump the gun and have sex before their wedding, they are not sinning. The order of things doesn't really matter. What matters is that they actually commit to each other for life - provided they do that, it is irrelevant when they first started having sex.

That is all. Do NOT interpret this as a licence for immoral behaviour.
Click to expand...
I think we are using (Marriage) in a Generic and General sense and if so then my list are all Marriages.
Also, we can do this with Wife and they are all wives as well. Expect The last 3 can't inherent and the First 2 can.
It seems Rape only happens if that woman is not already owned and so she is not his.

Wife: Be a helper to your husband (Covenant) Yes
Unmarried Raped Woman: “the man who raped her is to give the young woman's father fifty silver shekels, and she will become his wife"
Concubine: a wife or sexual partner of secondary status (Covenant) No
Bonds/Slave Woman: a woman held in forced servitude (Covenant) No
Handmaiden: a female servant who serves her mistress (Covenant) No

@FollowingHim
There is no temporary relationship formed by having sex. There is a permanent obligation - an obligation to marry and be faithful to that woman.
Click to expand...
Reply:When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you." "And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.

Never Married.
 
I largely agree with you that the first set are marriages (I would qualify that with many details but aren't going to at present).
AbrahamSolomon said:
Reply:When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you." "And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.

Never Married.
Click to expand...
The question is not if they were married. The question is whether what they did was right.

Prostitution is repeatedly spoken against in multiple ways throughout scripture. Do not take one example of someone sleeping with a prostitute and think that means it's ok to do it yourself.
 
FollowingHim said:
I largely agree with you that the first set are marriages (I would qualify that with many details but aren't going to at present).

The question is not if they were married. The question is whether what they did was right.
Click to expand...


FollowingHim said:
Prostitution is repeatedly spoken against in multiple ways throughout scripture. Do not take one example of someone sleeping with a prostitute and think that means it's ok to do it yourself.
Click to expand...

I agree, but the main difference is if that woman submits to that one man.

Be back later. Stuff to-do's
 
Note that Tamar was not actually a prostitute.

She only submitted to Judah. She might have dressed as a prostitute, but in reality she offered her body to one man only, and then kept herself solely for that man. The whole prostitute thing was a deliberate disguise. She was not actually a prostitute and never engaged in prostitution, as she never slept with multiple men and never accepted payment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top