Male Headship

[Cap]

No. There is no equation. There are two entirely separate things going on here. Men are to love their wives. Period. Women are to submit to their husbands. Period. There is no connection between these two things. One has zero bearing on the other.

I already said that, "Submitting is what wives are called to do. Love is what husbands are called to do. The end."

They are all related and they also include a third and they even have a title connecting them according to https://biblehub.com/niv/ephesians/5.htm

Instructions for Christian Households

21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing b her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” c 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

 

[Cap]

@ZecAustin , do you always submit yourself to Christ? NO

Does Christ still love you? YES

(Same goes for me, thank God I can be a disobedient wife (I'm trying) and still be loved. Thank God for Mercy and Grace)

 

[Pacman]

Vs 21 is not instructions for the home. It’s instruction for relating to fellow believers within the church...

Instructions for Christian Households

21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

 

[Pacman]

View attachment 689

Straw man arguments are not helpful... and they are actually insulting.

The distinction between the commands being independent of one another doesn’t mean we don’t love our wives. In fact I would argue that it’s more likely that men who view this as conditional are more likely to base their love on the actions of his wife. And the women who view it as conditional are highly unlikely to ever properly reverence their husband.

 

[Cap]

Vs 21 is not instructions for the home. It’s instruction for relating to fellow believers within the church...

One could take it that way, but it seems odd to try and force that in relationship to the next few verses.

 

[Cap]

Straw man arguments are not helpful... and they are actually insulting.

The distinction between the commands being independent of one another doesn’t mean we don’t love our wives. In fact I would argue that it’s more likely that men who view this as conditional are more likely to base their love on the actions of his wife. And the women who view it as conditional are highly unlikely to ever properly reverence their husband.

Sorry if you took offense. The point I was trying to make was in reference to the discussion about the separation of submission and love. My point, yes a wife is to submit to her husband, but through his love for her she can submit with love. The husband and wife both win.

I would rather receive a sandwich made for me by my wife out of her love than her requirement. And since she is not required to love me, that ability comes from my love to her in her submission.

I imagine God is the same. Yes we will submit to Him, but it's much better if we do it from love. And we get that ability because God loved us first.

1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

 

[Pacman]

One could take it that way, but it seems odd to try and force that in relationship to the next few verses.

Look at punctuation within the context of the first part of the chapter. Basic grammar and the balance of scripture should fill in the question marks. Also the idea of mutual submission within marriage is completely antithetical to the entire purpose that God created human marriage for. God does not submit to his people. Christ does not submit to the church.

Footnotes and chapter and verse divisions are not inspired of God...

 

[Cap]

Also the idea of mutual submission within marriage is completely antithetical to the entire purpose that God created human marriage for. God does not submit to his people. Christ does not submit to the church.

Don't know where you got this from.

Footnotes and chapter and verse divisions are not inspired of God...

They are in all the Bibles we read, so they most mean something for us. (Just kidding, I know what you mean.)

 

[Pacman]

Don't know where you got this from.

If you apply verse 21 to marriage as you seemed to be implying in post #23 then it is calling for mutual submission. That breaks the picture of Christ and the church which is spoken about later in the chapter...

 

[Cap]

If you apply verse 21 to marriage as you seemed to be implying in post #23 then it is calling for mutual submission. That breaks the picture of Christ and the church which is spoken about later in the chapter...

I see what you mean, however I take the submit in this verse as, submit in ones order of submission to each other within a family. I doubt very seriously that Trump would submit to me as a member of the church. I wouldn't expect him too.

However, in the frame of reference I'm using, in a family, a husband and wife should submit to Christ in their roles within the family structure. Wives, submit as to Christ and husband love as Christ would (which is a husbands submission to Him) which in turn honors Christ.

 

[Pacman]

21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

I see what you mean, however I take the submit in this verse as, submit in ones order of submission to each other within a family. I doubt very seriously that Trump would submit to me as a member of the church. I wouldn't expect him too.

However, in the frame of reference I'm using, in a family, a husband and wife should submit to Christ in their roles within the family structure. Wives, submit as to Christ and husband love as Christ would (which is a husbands submission to Him) which in turn honors Christ.

Your interpretation doesn’t fit with the verse. It says “submit to one another” not submit to Christ... also I personally have serious doubts about Trump being part of the church... but if he is then he absolutely should be submitting to others within the church...

 

[Pacman]

Ephesians 5:15-21 WEB
[15] Therefore watch carefully how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise; [16] redeeming the time, because the days are evil. [17] Therefore don't be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. [18] Don't be drunken with wine, in which is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, [19] speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs; singing, and making melody in your heart to the Lord; [20] giving thanks always concerning all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to God, even the Father; [21] subjecting yourselves to one another in the fear of Christ.


Perhaps another translation will make it a bit more clear...

 

[Cap]

Your interpretation doesn’t fit with the verse. It says “submit to one another” not submit to Christ... also I personally have serious doubts about Trump being part of the church... but if he is then he absolutely should be submitting to others within the church...

It says submit to one another in REVERENCE of Christ.

The Trump thing was a joke, just trying to say someone of that authority submitting to someone else at less of authority... Nevermind it's not worth it.

Why is it so hard to just say, husbands and wives should fulfill their roles to honor Christ and bring blessings to their lives. Which in turn will bring light to others. I don't know what interpretation you get out of your reading, but that's what I get and I'm sticking with it.

 

[Pacman]

The Trump thing was a joke, just trying to say someone of that authority submitting to someone else at less of authority... Nevermind it's not worth it.

Understood...

 

[Pacman]

It says submit to one another in REVERENCE of Christ.

Actually it says 21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Out of reverence for Christ is the reason for the submission it’s not a description of the submission... your interpretation here is dependent upon it being the description of the submission but that’s not what the verse says...

 

[Cap]

Actually it says 21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Out of reverence for Christ is the reason for the submission it’s not a description of the submission... your interpretation here is dependent upon it being the description of the submission but that’s not what the verse says...

I'm good with that.

 

[Pacman]

Why is it so hard to just say, husbands and wives should fulfill their roles to honor Christ and bring blessings to their lives. Which in turn will bring light to others. I don't know what interpretation you get out of your reading, but that's what I get and I'm sticking with it.

I agree with this. But it seems in other posts you are intent on claiming that the commands to wives and husbands are linked and conditional upon the other fulfilling their responsibility. That’s what I take issue with. They are separate commands and it’s dangerous to try and link them as conditional upon the other.

 

[Cap]

I agree with this. But it seems in other posts you are intent on claiming that the commands to wives and husbands are linked and conditional upon the other fulfilling their responsibility. That’s what I take issue with. They are separate commands and it’s dangerous to try and link them as conditional upon the other.

They are linked only by the command we are each called to individually honor Christ in the capacity we are given to do so.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Why is it so hard to just say, husbands and wives should fulfill their roles to honor Christ and bring blessings to their lives.

I don't know why but it is. If someone says "Wives submit" before his words have quit reverberating someone is going to panickedly yell, "But husbands have to love their wives!"
I just don't understand why the phrase "wives submit" can not be separated from "husbands love your wives" especially as the reverse is fanatically adhered to. Everyone wants husband loving irregardless but the submission always has to be leavened. Why?

 

[rockfox]

I would rather receive a sandwich made for me by my wife out of her love than her requirement. And since she is not required to love me, that ability comes from my love to her in her submission.

The problem is for most people love is a feeling. So they feel love for you. They just don't feel like submitting by making you a sandwich.

But Christ comes on the scene and defines love this way...."If you love me you'll keep my commandments". i.e. love your husband by making him a sandwich when he says to. You show love through obedience. It is better to obey, even if out of obligation and not feeling, than to disobey.;