Male Headship

[ContraMundum]

From what I've noticed in this discussion there are people using the term respect to generally describe the function of honor. I don't see what the problem is in just calling it honor? Do we lose something if we are told to "respect God" in this way rather than "fear God"? I believe so. I think breaking down Eph 5 a bit should cause us to reconsider our aversion to a wife fearing a husband.

[Eph 5:21 NKJV] 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

Okay, so we have "fear of God". There doesn't seem to be a problem translating that.

[Eph 5:22-24 NKJV] 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

This establishes a strong relationship between the way in which a wife is subject to her husband and the way the church is subject the Messiah; as to the Lord (Master). Submit like you would to God, in everything. So now we have a precedent.

[Eph 5:33 NKJV] 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Why did Paul say "Nevertheless" here? It seems to me that he is trying to prevent the reader from thinking the way a wife is to relate to her husband is undermined by the love he is to have. Between v. 24 & 33 he brings up the other side of the issue, but is careful to tie it back to the wife's duty at the end here. The word in contention, respect, is used in many translations here. But I don't think it is by accident that Paul identified fear of God and the wife's subjection to her husband before ever getting to this final phrase.

Fear God -> Submit to husbands as to God -> Fear your husband

[1Pe 3:2 NKJV] 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.

Why would we render this fear here and not in Eph 5:33?

Can someone show me where "phobos" being translated fear would be inappropriate? It just seems to me that we are trying create distance between the proper fear a wife should have toward God and her husband. It seems there is a relationship between fear of God and fear of husband. What is it? What do we even mean by respect or reverence? Is that what is meant by "phobos"?

 

[Pacman]

Can someone show me where "phobos" being translated fear would be inappropriate?

Nope. it would be perfectly appropriate imo. What's not appropriate imo is translating it as respect...

 

[Pacman]

to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience

My take on it is that this is the most applicable...

 

[ContraMundum]

My take on it is that this is the most applicable...

I'm sorry, but I can't fellowship with you now over a minute difference in prefered word usage.

 

[Phillip]

Strongs G5399 does use reverence in Ephesians 5:33. In fact, fear is also a definition along with in awe of. If I were gonna preach on this verse, one thing I would want to do is explain in plain, every day language what is meant by fear, reverence and in awe of in Ephesians 5:33. In fact, I think it would be fun to teach this.

As I looked this over, I considered the word fear in today’s use it has a negative connotation to it. So, that would have to be addressed.

Then the other problem would be the Greek word ‘fobeomai’ used in verse 33. Fibeomai meaning respect. You will have to justify the Greek not using the word ‘fobos’ which means reverence. Strongs concordence says fear, reverence while the Greek says respect.

I think, in my own humble opinion, it’s probably time to get some coffee.

 

[Pacman]

Then the other problem would be the Greek word ‘fobeomai’ used in verse 33. Fibeomai meaning respect. You will have to justify the Greek not using the word ‘fobos’ which means reverence. Strongs concordence says fear, reverence while the Greek says respect.

Where are you getting this? My resources tell me it’s

Strong's Number
G5399
Original Word
φοβέω
Transliterated Word
phobeō
Phonetic Spelling
fob-eh'-o

 

[aineo]

The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other ealy Christian literature 3rd edition (BDAG) states it can mean respect:

φοβέω, φοβέομαι (φέβομαι ‘flee in terror’; Hom. et al.; Wsd 17:9; Jos., Ant. 14, 456), in our lit. only pass. φοβέομαι (Hom.+; OGI 669, 59; SIG 1268 II, 17; pap, LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph., Just.; Mel., P. 98, 746 al.; Ath. 20, 2; R. 21 p. 75, 1) impf. ἐφοβούμην; 1 fut. φοβηθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἐφοβήθην (Plut., Brut. 1002 [40, 9]; M. Ant. 9, 1, 7; Jer 40:9; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 277; s. B-D-F §79).
1 to be in an apprehensive state, be afraid, the aor. oft. in the sense become frightened
a intr., abs. (Iren. 1, 4, 2 [Harv. I 36, 4]) ἐφοβήθησαν σφόδρα they were terribly frightened (Ex 14:10; 1 Macc 12:52) Mt 17:6; 27:54. ἐπεστράφην φοβηθείς I turned around in terror Hv 4, 3, 7.–Mt 9:8; 14:30; 25:25; Mk 5:33; Ac 16:38. ἐφοβοῦντο γάρ for they were afraid Mk 16:8 (Mk 16:9-20 is now rarely considered a part of the original gospel of Mk, though many scholars doubt that the gosp. really ended w. the words ἐφ. γάρ. The original ending may have been lost; among the possible reasons given are the accidental loss of the last page of Mark’s own first copy [the same defect, at a very early stage, in the case of the 18th book of the Κεστοί of Jul. Africanus: WBauer, Orthodoxy etc. (Engl. tr. of 2d German ed. ’64) ’71, 159ff. S. also FKenyon, Papyrus Rolls and the Ending of St. Mk: JTS 40, ’39, 56f; CRoberts, The Ancient Book and the Ending of St. Mk: ibid. 253-57] or by purposeful suppression, perh. because it may have deviated fr. the other accounts of the resurrection [for the purposeful omission of the end of a document cp. Athen. 4, 61, 166d on the 10th book of Theopompus’ Philippica, ἀφ̓ ἧς τινες τὸ τελευταῖον μέρος χωρίσαντες, ἐν ᾧ ἐστιν τὰ περὶ τῶν δημαγωγῶν. S. also Diog. L. 7, 34: a report of Isidorus of Pergamum on the systematic mutilation of books in the library there by Athenodorus the Stoic].–Those who conclude that nothing ever came after ἐφ. γάρ must either assume that the evangelist was prevented fr. finishing his work [Zahn et al.], or indeed intended to close the book w. these words [s. γάρ 1a]. For a short sentence, composed of a verb + γάρ s. also Epict. 3, 9, 19; 4, 8, 4; Artem. 4, 64; 1, 33 p. 35, 6; Plotinus, Ennead 5, 5, a treatise ending in γάρ [PvanderHorst, JTS 23, ’72, 121-24]; Musonius Rufus, Tr. XII; Oenomaus in Eus., PE 6, 7, 8; Libanius, Or. 53 p. 65, 20 F.; PMich 149 VI, 37 [II A.D.]. Among those favoring an ending w. γάρ: Wlh., Loisy, Lohmeyer ad loc.; ABauer, WienerStud 34, 1912, 306ff; LBrun, D. Auferst. Christi 1925, 10ff; OLinton, ThBl 8, 1929, 229-34; JCreed, JTS 31, 1930, 175-80; MGoguel, La foi à la résurr. de Jésus ’33, 176ff; HMosbech, Mkevangeliets Slutning: SEÅ 5, ’40, 56-73; WAllen, JTS 47, ’46, 46-49 [‘feel reverential awe’]; ibid. 48, ’47, 201-3. S. also EGoodspeed, Exp. 8th ser., 18, 1919, 155-60; reconstruction of the ‘lost’ ending, in Engl., by Goodsp. in his Introd. to the NT ’37, 156; HProbyn, Exp. 9th ser., 4, 1925, 120-25; RKevin, JBL 45, 1926, 81-103; MEnslin, ibid. 46, 1927, 62-68; HCadbury, ibid. 344f; MRist, ATR 14, ’32, 143-51; WKnox, HTR 35, ’42, 13ff; EHelzle, Der Schluss des Mk, ’59, diss. Tübingen; FDanker, CTM 38, ’67, 26f; JLuzarraga, Biblica 50, ’69, 497-510; KAland, MBlack Festschr., ’69, 157-80, NTEntwürfe, ’79, 246-83). φοβοῦμαι μᾶλλον I am all the more fearful IPhld 5:1. μὴ φοβηθῆτε do not be afraid Mt 10:31 v.l. (μή 1cεא). μὴ φοβοῦ, μὴ φοβεῖσθε you must no longer be afraid, stop being afraid (μή 1cγא) Mt 10:31; 14:27; 17:7; Mk 5:36; Lk 1:13, 30; 2:10; 5:10; 8:50; 12:7 al. LKöhler, D. Offenbarungsformel ‘Fürchte dich nicht!’: SchTZ 36, 1919, 33ff.–W. acc. of inner obj. (B-D-F §153; Rob. 468; Pla., Prot. 360b; Ael. Aristid. 30 p. 586 D.: φοβοῦμαι φόβον; Did., Gen. 230, 1; on LXX usage s. Johannessohn, Kasus 73) ὁ φόβος ὃν δεῖ σε φοβηθῆναι the fear which you must have Hm 7:1c. ἐφοβήθησαν φόβον μέγαν (Jon 1:10; 1 Macc 10:8; TestAbr. B 13 p. 117, 17f [Stone p. 82]; JosAs 6:1) they were very much afraid Mk 4:41; Lk 2:9. If the nouns are to be taken in the pass. sense, this is also the place for τὸν φόβον αὐτῶν (objective gen.) μὴ φοβηθῆτε 1 Pt 3:14 (cp. Is 8:12) and μὴ φοβούμεναι μηδεμίαν πτόησιν vs. 6 (πτόησις 2); s. 1bγ below.–A recognizable Hellenic expr. (cp. ὁ ἀπὸ τῶν πολεμίων φόβος=fear in the face of the enemy), though encouraged by OT usage (Lev 26:2; Dt 1:29; Jer 1:8, 17; Jdth 5:23; 1 Macc 2:62; 8:12; En106:4; Helbing 29; B-D-F §149; Rob. 577) φοβ. ἀπό τινος be afraid of someone Mt 10:28a; Lk 12:4; 1 Cl 56:11 (Job 5:22).–Foll. by gen. absol. 56:10. Foll. by μή and the aor. subj. to denote that which one fears (Thu. 1, 36, 1; Aesop, Fab. 317 H.=356a P.; Alex. Aphr. 31, II/2 p. 203, 20 τὸν Ἀπόλλω φοβεῖσθαι μή τι παρελθῇ τούτων ἄπρακτον=Apollo is concerned [almost as much as ‘sees to it’] that nothing of this remains undone; Jos., Ant. 10, 8, Vi. 252) Ac 23:10; 27:17; ITr 5:1; Hs 9, 20, 2. Foll. by μήποτε (Phlegon: 257 fgm. 36, 2, 4 Jac. p. 1172, 30 φοβοῦμαι περὶ ὑμῶν, μήποτε; JosAs 7:3; ApcMos 16 al.): Hm 12, 5, 3. φοβηθῶμεν μήποτε δοκῇ τις Hb 4:1; μήπου (v.l. μήπως; ParJer 5:5) Ac 27:29; 2 Cor 11:3; 12:20. A notable feature is the prolepsis of the obj. (cp. Soph., Oed. R. 767; Thu. 4, 8, 7) φοβοῦμαι ὑμᾶς μήπως εἰκῇ κεκοπίακα εἰς ὑμᾶς I am afraid my work with you may be wasted Gal 4:11 (B-D-F §476, 3; Rob. 423).–W. inf. foll. be afraid to do or shrink from doing someth. (B-D-F §392, 1b.–X., An. 1, 3, 17 al.; Gen 19:30; 26:7; ApcMos 10:18) Mt 1:20; 2:22; Mk 9:32; Lk 9:45; 2 Cl 5:1.–φοβεῖσθαι abs. in the sense take care (Just., D. 78, 4) πλέον φοβεῖσθαι be more careful than usually ITr 4:1.
b trans. fear someone or someth.
α. pers. τινά someone (X., An. 3, 2, 19 al.; PGM 4, 2171; Num 21:34; Dt 3:2; Jos., Ant. 13, 26; Just., D. 83, 1) μὴ φοβηθῆτε αὐτούς Mt 10:26. Ἡρῴδης ἐφοβεῖτο τὸν Ἰωάννην Mt 6:20. τοὺς Ἰουδαίους J 9:22.–Gal 2:12; 2 Cl 5:4b (saying of Jesus). God (Did., Gen. 64, 15; Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 11]) Mt 10:28b; Lk 12:5abc; 23:40; 2 Cl 5:4c (saying of Jesus). The crowd Mt 14:5; 21:26, 46; Mk 11:32; 12:12; Lk 20:19; 22:2; Ac 5:26 (foll. by μή). τὴν ἐξουσίαν (ἐξουσία 5a) Ro 13:3. The angel of repentance Hm 12, 4, 1; s 6, 2, 5. The Christian is to have no fear of the devil Hm 7:2a; 12, 4, 6f; 12, 5, 2.
β . animals (in imagery) μὴ φοβείσθωσαν τὰ ἀρνία τοὺς λύκους 2 Cl 5:4a (saying of Jesus, fr. an unknown source).
γ. things τὶ someth. (X., Hell. 4, 4, 8 al.; En103:4; ApcEsdr 7:2 τὸν θάνατον; Just., D. 1, 5 κόλασιν; Ath., R. 21 p. 75, 1 οὐδέν; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 90; 2, 232) τὸ διάταγμα τοῦ βασιλέως Hb 11:23. τὸν θυμὸν τοῦ βασιλέως vs. 27. τὴν κρίσιν 2 Cl 18:2. τὸν ὄντως θάνατον Dg 10:7. φοβοῦμαι τὴν ὑμῶν ἀγάπην, μὴ ... IRo 1:2. τὰ ὅπλα (in imagery) Hm 12, 2, 4.–1 Pt 3:14 and 6 belong here if the nouns in them are to be taken in an act. sense; s. 1a above.–Fear, avoid, shun τὶ someth. (Ps.-Callisth. 1, 41, 9 Δαρεῖος τὸ ἅρμα φοβηθείς) τὴν πλάνην τῶν ἁμαρτωλῶν B 12:10. τὰ ἔργα τοῦ διαβόλου Hm 7:3ac.–AVStröm, Der Hirt des Hermas, Allegorie oder Wirklichkeit? Ntl. Sem. Uppsala 3, ’36.
2 to have a profound measure of respect for, (have) reverence, respect, w. special ref. to fear of offending
a God: fear (differently 1bα) in the sense reverence (Aeschyl., Suppl. 893 δαίμονας; Isocr. 1, 16 τοὺς μὲν θεοὺς φοβοῦ, τοὺς δὲ γονεῖς τίμα; Pla., Leg. 11, 927a; Lysias 9, 17; 32, 17; Plut., De Superstit. 2, 165b; LXX; PsSol 4:21; TestJob 43:9 [τὸν κύριον]; JosAs 2:5 [deities]; Philo, Migr. Abr. 21 [after Gen 42:18]. Cp. PTebt 59, 10 [II B.C.] φοβεῖσθαι καὶ σέβεσθαι τὸ ἱερόν) Lk 1:50 (anticipates the οἱ φοβούμενοι in Ac: H-JKlauck, NTS 43, ’97, 134-39); 18:2, 4 (was Ex 23:1-3 his motto: even God could not bribe him?); Ac 10:35; 1 Pt 2:17; Rv 14:7; 19:5; 1 Cl 21:7; 23:1; 28:1; 45:6; B 10:10f (τὸν κύριον); 19:2, 7; Hm 1:2; 7:1, 4f; s 5, 1, 5; 8, 11, 2; D 4:10. Also τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θεοῦ (2 Esdr 11) Rv 11:18.–φοβούμενοι τὸν θεόν as a t.t.=σεβόμενοι τὸν θεόν (σέβω 1b; t.t. disputed by MWilcox, JSNT 13, ’81, 102-22; cp. TFinn, CBQ 47, ’85, 75-84; ILevinskaya, The Book of Acts in Its Diaspora Setting [BAFCS V] ’96, 51-126; BWander, Gottesfürchtige und Sympathisanten [WUNT 104] ’98, esp. 80-86; 180-203) Ac 13:16, 26 (Just., D. 10, 4 al.; sing. 10:2, 22).–τὸν κύριον (PsSol 2:33; 3:12 al.; JosAs 8:9) Christ: Col 3:22.–WAllen (s. 1a above) interprets Mk 16:8 to mean reverence for the divine.
b pers. who command respect (Plut., Galba 1054 [3, 4]; Herodian 3, 13, 2; Lev 19:3 φοβ. πατέρα καὶ μητέρα; Jos., Ant. 19, 345): of a wife ἵνα φοβῆται τὸν ἄνδρα Eph 5:33. τὸν ἐπίσκοπον IEph 6:1.–RAC VIII 661-99; TRE XI 756-59; Schmidt, Syn. III 507-36. DELG s.v. φέβομαι II. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.

 

[Phillip]

It’s on my bible on my phone using the NET version. The info I get is that verse 21 uses reverence while verse 33 uses respect. But, as I said, Strongs says reverence.

What did you come up with?

 

[The Revolting Man]

That was a lot small text but from what I saw even the respect had an element of fear to it.

 

[Pacman]

It’s on my bible on my phone using the NET version. The info I get is that verse 21 uses reverence while verse 33 uses respect. But, as I said, Strongs says reverence.

What did you come up with?

This

 

[rockfox]

The word fear/respect/reverence in Eph 5:33 is the translation of phobētai. It is my contention it is best translated reverence; but fear also works. Respect however lacks the quality of fear inherent to the Greek word and its usages.

Awe does include that fear, just not in our contemporary English conception of the word. To understand awe, think of the wonder and fear you would feel when presented with the full might and power of God. You are in awe. For a scripture example, look at anytime an angel appeared to someone (such as Luke 1:30, same word used).

Reverence is something that has long attracted my curiosity. Many Bible versions translate this respect, but that doesn't do it justice. The English respect is usually a noun for positive feeling or regard. But phobetai here is a verb.

What does it mean?

"to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience" from the root "to put to flight, to terrify, frighten"

Reverence comes from the root fear; there has to be some aspect of fear to this. I collequally put it "respect born in fear/awe". That gives a sense of the feeling, but not the action.

The connotation of fear is inherently objectionable to us today with the present understanding of marriage. Even the Gospel is so corrupted that many find it objectionable that a Christian would fear God. But God is fearsome nonetheless.

Some modern dictionaries have eliminated the fear aspect of the definition of reverence; but the original has it:

Fear mingled with respect and esteem; veneration. An act of respect or obeisance; a bow or courtesy.

What is veneration?

The highest degree of respect and reverence; respect mingled with some degree of awe; a feeling or sentiment excited by the dignity and superiority of a person, or
by the sacredness of his character, and with regard to place, by its consecration to sacred services.

I could continue breaking down the words, but that is sufficient for now.

 

[frederick]

English word meanings continues to change so our understanding of a word used in the Bible must come from it's appropriate historic usages. When discussing biblical fear/reverence I have found it helpful to now use the English word 'Trepidation' so that people get the sense of being in dread or fear of offending the one he or she is subject to; men to God, wives to their husband.
Shalom brothers.

 

[andrew]

Good one.