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ylop

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OK, to resume and hopefully further a previous discussion.

When I was a earnest young man looking for my first wife, I spent a long time working out my essential and desirable criteria (they are different), and then I was highly selective with the women I pursued. When I eventually found the right one, I made real sure of her before I said "I love you" and although I didnt tell her at the time, what I meant was "I am prepared to marry you". I then obtained the consent of her parents before asking her to marry me. The engagement period was short but gruelling and included an extensive interview process with our baptist pastor including separately completed questionaires with external analysis followed by a feedback session. And of course all the meeting with relatives and friends. Lets not get started on the wedding.

Now I have to say that the impression I get from various posts is that the basic requirement for wife #2 onwards is someone who says yes to polygamy, and all the rest can get sorted out later. Potential incompatibilities are overlooked in the excitement of finding a live one. That sounds cruel and a gross oversimplification, so feel free to criticise.

Anecdotally I estimate that there would be around a 80% divorce rate of polygamous relationships, maybe higher. I bet there are plenty of unreported failures. Perhaps discussed in slight references like "we had a potential but it didnt work out".

I have a deep desire to build my family, but would rather leave things as they are rather than end up divorced.

There seems to be a real lack of definition to the start and end of polygamous relationships. These starts and ends should be named correctly as marriages and divorces.

Discussion?

ylop
 
I do not believe that sex=marriage. It is part of the formula but it is not the actual marriage. Sex without commitment is just fornication. If sex always equals marriage then the term fornication is not necessary. Sex is either adultery or marriage under that rule.

I am a firm believer that marriage comes from a commitment between a man and woman and God, and then it is consumated. In the OT betrothal was considered marriage even if the marriage had not been consumated. In the OT prostitutes were just prostitutes, not married to their customers. It is my thinking that for a betrothal to be considered a marriage without consumation then the commitment must be the more important piece of the formula.

Joseph had the right to divorce Mary even though they had not completed the marriage through consumation. The prostitute was not considered to be married to her customers. To me it is like the commitment (betrothal) is the meal and the consumation is the desert. The first is far more important and it has more value than the desert.

If we are to follow the Bible's example then I am much more married for having a commitment to my hubby than if it were only sex that made us married.

SweetLissa
 
Some clarification on my post.

I am not discussing sex=marriage here.

The topic I wish to debate is the level of formality to the start and end of polygamous unions, and the importance of spending time choosing the correct person before starting something.

ylop
 
Sorry, I was going back to the original thought from that other "hijacked" thread.

I personally believe that people should be very careful when choosing a mate either a first or beyond that. When you are in the world, it is no biggie, "if it doesn't work out we will just get divorced." In the Biblical Families world, we are trying to stop divorce before it happens and focus on families.

The problem is that we cannot control the other people in our lives. One day, a spouse could just "up and leave" which is horrible and painful for all. That to me is divorce. I know of families who have had intimacy during the "courting phase" but I don't think it is a good idea. I believe that if you make a commitment then that commitment should be sealed by consumation. I don't believe that people should have "casual" sex during courtship because then it is just a weirder version of worldly dating. But I still don't believe that if a couple slips and has sex they are automatically married. I believe that would take some thought and discussion on both parts to see if the commitment is there to back up their actions. Sex for sex sake is not the beginning of a poly marriage. The end of a poly marriage is not when someone walks away. In the Bible, the woman always has the right to come back as long as she has not married another. This means that the marriage never really ends. IMHO

SweetLissa
 
Hi SweetLissa. Yes I agree with your sentiment of caution.

And when you mention "if a couple slips and has sex...", I an confident that that has happened more than once.

And that is my concern.

As for me and my house, I say "not on my watch" but more than that I think as Biblical Families we should be a lighthouse, a city on a hill, an example for monogamous Christians and also for married unbelievers.

Why are people getting themselves into situations where they can "slip"?

It is a given of human behaviour that if a man and a woman spend enough time together, they will be intimate with each other.

For young people, and in some non-western cultures, that is why we have chaperones.

But if you have some kind of "trial poly mariage" with consenting adults, in the same house, with no chaperone in sight. I mean come on, the end result is a foregone conclusion.

Your thoughts?

ylop the exclusive distributor of "straight and narrow" branded chastity belts for the polygamously-inclined suitor
 
It is not a relationship that I would be willing to have. My caution to everyone is that once you do this you cannot take it back. You can't say "oops it just didn't work out."

The world that most of us were brought up in is a far different place than the one you mention. I understand that it isn't necessarily a good thing. We as parents need to be responsible for raising up a generation of young people who do not think of it as a "slip" but as a sin, which is what it is. We all know that we can be forgiven from sin (grace) but we don't want to practice sin on purpose.

I was raised in a family that did not discuss sex, even to say no. I got my information from school buddies and as a result, I conformed to worldliness. Even when I believed, I didn't quite get that those rules still mattered today, because I started in a church that said the OT was not used anymore and it was all about forgiveness. So now, in my 40's I struggle with all my mess ups when I was younger. I know I am forgiven, but what a waste of a life I have led.

I challenge our group to raise its children to understand why it is a sin to have sex outside of marriage. When there is a clear understanding I believe we have a better chance of getting obediance out of our children and therefore saving them from the regrets that I have (and many like me.)

SweetLissa
 
I am getting confused by all this talk about sex because I thought this thread according to the OP, is about the lackadaisical way some Poly seekers 'choose' a new wife.

I have to agree with the sentiment of the OP, I myself, have actually had first emails written to me starting '...and so, when I finally meet you, I shall expect our marriage to start.....' and similar. I have had introductory emails informing me how MY children will be raised and educated! This is even before they knew a thing about me and, I am sorry, if they did, they wouldn't have bothered, because it is clear to anyone who reads a word of what I write, that I am exceedingly strange and will not fit into the home of people that are conventionally minded.

I have seen women join forums single and within weeks claim to be married and 'happier than they have ever been' I am sorry but weeks? Did that man marry his first wife in a matter of weeks? I bet he did not. Compatibility does count for something when it comes to having a long and successful relationship, it is more than "Me MAN, You WO-Man"!!!

B
 
This thread is dealing with an extremely serious and significant issue, both for family members and for the public testimony of Biblical families and plural marriage.

I would like to comment on two things that are important in this arena,
1. Our concept of marriage is often skewed by the images of the media and Madison Avenue advertisers. They both promote the stylized romantic version of life that ends with the fairy tale ending, as the camera fades to black, "And they lived happily ever after". They never promote the idea that marriage and family is a lot of work, that has it's ups and downs with good days and bad days. When the problems come, it is too easy to say "Whoops, I'm in the wrong story book, on to another book." There is no perfect relationship, just opportunities to grow.
2. We as a culture have lost the sense of commitment and honor. It is way too easy, even if painful, to cut and run when we should stay and work through our difficulties. Why have so many men and women come to believe that we have a right to happiness at the cost of someone else's misery? I believe it is imperative that we be men and women of our word and stay and work through the difficulties to the pleasant places on the other side of trial.
I am not forgetting those abusive relationships that may cost someone physical harm, but speaking to the majority of cases. What think ye?

I had to come back and add this, after reading again the title of the previous thread. If we were to be honest in calling the events of marriage and divorce by their appropriate title, we would be much more conscious of what we were doing. Something along the lines of the difference between a fetus and a child, creates a different course of action on the part of most people. If we call it a marriage, clearly defined, we are likely to take it much more seriously and attempt to avoid its failure. We would also, likely avoid a divorce more earnestly than we would "a mistake". I for one am amazed at how confused God is. Seems He provides a second wife so frequently, only to have the family find out later that she was the wrong woman for that family. Who will volunteer to straighten Him out in this matter?
 
ylop said:
Now I have to say that the impression I get from various posts is that the basic requirement for wife #2 onwards is someone who says yes to polygamy, and all the rest can get sorted out later. Potential incompatibilities are overlooked in the excitement of finding a live one. That sounds cruel and a gross oversimplification, so feel free to criticise.

I have a deep desire to build my family, but would rather leave things as they are rather than end up divorced.

ylop
Click to expand...

Please realize that the vast majority of "trauma" posts are from people that are new to BF and started this polygamy path before even joining this site. Add in the fact that most of those posts are from wives, and that the husband is mostly non existent on the forums, if he is even registered. Many times the "man" started his polygamy chase on his own, never looked for counsel, and never does before, during, or after.

I have never seen or heard of a situation from BF where the husband and wife were active in the BF fellowship through forum and retreat and had the situation that you are describing. There are stories of persons who have registered, rarely posted (if at all) and nobody even realizes or knows that they are members here. Then we start getting posts after the fallout. They are doing damage control when they should have done due diligence and preventive maintenance. They are welcome, but this ministry wishes that they would have come for counsel BEFORE trying this at home.

I know of single ladies that register here and get many messages from people that I have NEVER even heard of and when I look up the profile, the person has been a member for several years, never posted even once, and only uses this place as a fishing hole. In fact, we call those types "crop dusters", swooping in over the field and defiling the peaceful community.

A word of caution to any wife or wife to be that has ever visited this forum. If you don't see your future family being active on this site in even a small manner, then you should think about why. There is NO manual for poly living, only advice and knowledge from those that have gone before. Why is a man even thinking about taking another wife if there is no support system or manner of accountability for him or his wife? He is just going to marry you and have no support before, during, and after for his current wife? What about you?

I meet lots of people that claim to be poly minded or ready for poly. How many poly families do they know? How many times have they spent time with poly living people to ask the tough questions face to face? Have they ever spent a dime on travel to a retreat or any effort at all that can be verified?

I am not saying it can't work or that everyone has to see things my way, but give serious thought about handling this slowly and surely, and use the trauma posts as a good lesson: most of those are not the BF standard, don't represent the proper and honorable method for men to be handling this process, and come here for help much later than they should have.
 
Excellent point^^ from Paul not the apostle, I have seen that on other forums where members sign in once every blue moon, they often hang about reading through the intro posts, sometimes you will see a post from them welcoming a new (unattached single woman) member but then they go again *poof* never to be heard from again.....until the next single unattached female joins. They never take part in discussions, they are not willing to learn about the lifestyle, they don't want to bother with all that nonsense, they just want a woman who will take them, thank you very much.



B
 
ylop said:
"trial poly mariage"
Click to expand...

An oxymoron! (or at least it should be) ;)

ylop said:
Anecdotally I estimate that there would be around a 80% divorce rate of polygamous relationships, maybe higher. I bet there are plenty of unreported failures. Perhaps discussed in slight references like "we had a potential but it didnt work out".
Click to expand...

I have also heard that the casualty rate of poly marriages is quite high (with the 2nd wives being the ones who typically get the boot).
I am presently in a courtship with a wonderful man and have been for over a year now. I keep getting lots of questions from my poly friends (many are active BF members) wanting to know if we've set a date yet. When I tell them "no" they often get concerned and ask if "something is wrong". Several of them have told me that they are "worried" for me because of the delay. I've told them all the same thing "we're not in any hurry". Many of them still express concern for me anyway. Why? Why is taking your time in a relationship seen as a cause for "concern"?

Blessings,
Fairlight
 
This is what life is. We are supposed to enjoy the journey. Take your time Fairlight and anyone else out there. I would be concerned, however, if a relationship went on for very long with it being a secret or no relationship with the other wife(s). I have known a few people who were literally "on hold" till the hubby had a chance to convince wife1 of the situation. This is not a cool thing, in my opinion and it is a situation designed to hurt everyone in the relationship.

SweetLissa
 
Pastor John and Paul,

I think you both are on target with what you are saying and thanks so much for saying it.

What I find to be so frustrating is that men today are really so independent that they will not be connected to other mature men. And it is sometimes within these men who are so disconnected that one will find the rebels who sometimes "romance" their way into a woman's or women's heart and then with very little maturity, unstable character, and without a true love for the work of Christ and his image disaster looms on the horizon.

Paul, your point about men being absent I think is so on target.

Men today have become by and large illiterate of both the Bible and social discourse. Not all men though just to be fair. Some might be working really hard and long hours and thus do not have much time to talk on forums and such like this. But, from what I can tell there is still a large dose of men who are ONLY connected to sites like this just so they can DRAW a woman to themselves. Some men might even be deceiving themselves since sin is so strong and such a real threat. It is a sad reality that seems to exist here and I imagine other places as well. It is rather sad and sorry.

This is one of the reasons some time back I thought a lot about the need for an authority system of some type over those entering or going this way. I believe every saint needs an elder or two above and over them, not just figure heads but truly a man or men that they are willing to submit themselves to. The Bible is so plain about this. Those that hate the idea in my mind often hate it because they are either rebels or because they fear who those men might be because so few today are really skilled at being good shepherds. Bill Luck has also mentioned the need for a type of registry system. It is not a perfect system but there does need to be something it seems in place to protect women from men (or a man and woman) who seeks to quickly rush someone in and then after the trial run they are rushed back out the back door under the ole "we tried it and it and it never worked out" lingo.

The details of that I have in mind I'll wait to share for sake of time and length. But in short, if a man rushes a union, then boots her out and then wants to hang around and keep doing that he should be admonished, corrected, trained to a better way, and then if he continues down that road he ought to be removed from the site and forums and BF should really disassociate with that man and thus all ladies would know that man is not really a safe option. If they pursue something else outside of this organization then that is on their own.

This is where Bill Luck I seethe Matthew 18 process being applied even in a sphere that is not per se a local church but nonetheless still a kingdom expression sphere as it is a sphere under the rule of Christ and his Word.

But, to be fair, such a process as this moves BF into a different role than what it has been. I hear from people stories like this. In the last 3 months I have heard several people, some of which are ladies, express concerns that immature men are roving around in these forums just waiting to use the forum as nothing more than a hook-up site. That is certainly not what BF is seeking to be.

Yet coming up with a solid solution that addresses this issue requires something that has more oversight to it and the people. Yet at the same time it has to be a system where the man's headship is not undermined by leaders outside of that home. The key then is finding a system (maybe?) that strikes a balance where spiritual leaders oversee people in unions and those incoming people seeking to be in a union while not being intrusive and undermining to the home itself.

Of course maybe there is another way altogether that I am not seeing.

But if my hunch is right, and if my studies are on target, this is exactly why in the early church the elders (or apostles in the absence of elders) ruled over the saints. they face issues like this as well on a regular basis.

Jesus once looked out over the crowds an he wept because the people were like sheep without shepherds. In many cases men in here (and even in local churches) do not want a shepherd. Some of the men who did not want to be guided or discipled by any man over them in local churches come to this pm truth and then come to places like this with the same mind of still not wanting to be a disciple of anyone. They roam around without any oversight to their lives. They like it that way. But they fail to see the blessing of having a shepherd or shepherds. Having a good shepherd can prevent disaster.

It can also keep ladies from being abused and rushed into something that is bad because the lady can go talk to her shepherd before the union and if there is a problem that shepherd can sit down and talk to all of the parties involved.

But this takes us back to the issue of role, purpose, vision, and organizational plans with BF. The staff as much as anyone hurts along with those who experience marital failures. Personally I have seen these men labor in love long hours in trying to prevent bad unions and trying to heal broken unions. It is an issue for sure. I've seen many of you good men and women in these forums pour out your soul and time and heart to others who hurt and need help. Sometimes it makes a huge difference now and then it takes time in other places for the words and hand of love to be received. Sometimes it is never received.

So I am sure we as a whole see it and know there are issues. But finding the right combination and means to combat it is a worthy effort but a time consuming one as well.

Hopefully this thread will be one of means unto that end in finding a balanced combination to help. There may be an entirely better way to resolve this. If so I am all ears and I would love to ponder it and consider it. Or it might be a multi-layered approach where several means are needed to accomplish the goal.


Dr. Allen
 
Wow, this is all soo true in my case. I found this site while frantically searching for some source to buy a book or learn something first hand about this type of lifestyle. There are practically no books and nowhere, except this site, that is in any way helpful at all (at least that I found).

I agree with the extreme speed at which folks seem to think a relationship should progress. My husband and I dated 3 years before we married. We have a 30 year successful marriage to show for really getting to know each other.

Why would you want it any other way?
 
I agree with the extreme speed at which folks seem to think a relationship should progress. My husband and I dated 3 years before we married. We have a 30 year successful marriage to show for really getting to know each other.
Click to expand...

Each time I read something like this I generally come back to the position that this is still one of the best means unto the goal of any union. All of the shepherds in the world, all of the leaders, people together, etc, a registry system, etc etc and all of the efforts working to fix something on the back end does not seem to make up in many cases what can be done here on the front end.

Time time time time and more time for a relationship to move slowly, progressively, and methodically towards oneness in the Lord still seems to me to be the best wisdom in it all.

I know too much time can be trouble too though. But still it seems like there is such a rush by some to mate with another.

I do not know all of the reasons, and maybe not even many of the reason, as to why many people like the fast-track. Do you all think it boils down to a lack of patience? Or is it a fear of losing the person if it is not rushed? A Combination thereof?
 
He who shall not be named says I oughta add a serious response at this point ... *sigh*

I knew my first wife for 6 years before we married. Decided to marry her 2 years into the friendship. Took 4 years to accomplish (ok, granted, I was 15 when I made the choice!). And we had an excellent marriage in many ways, for about 20 years ...

... until my questions about PM caused me to confront what the Bible REALLY had to say about marriage and the family. THEN she divorced me.

Fast forward a couple of very bleak years. Please. I don't particularly wanna remember! To the day I'm talking with and praying for God's guidance regarding 7 different women, among them my now ex wife of course. And God chooses that moment to drop my current wife in my lap. Almost literally.

We were introduced over internet by a mutual friend 2300 miles away. Talked for 6 weeks via phone and IM, met for about 2 hours, talked for another 6 weeks, moved in together (sorta) not knowing for sure where the relationship was going, weathered lots worse storms than my first wife and I had had, have had some very rocky times, and are still together now. We celebrate 3 or is it 4 anniversaries. Literally had to get married, legaly, twice to make it legal! (Long and odd story, but you'll have to ask he who ...)

In our case, its the MAN who is most active on the forum (he has the biggest MOUTH!), although the wife is on board and active amongst our site community of women. We haven't had anyone join the family or leave. Certainly not be booted. My first wife continues to be prayed for, at the same time we are open to God's leading for another wife to join us.

What's the moral of the story? Best as I can tell ... length of courtship doesn't make or break a relationship. Nor does age at marriage, nor formality of the process. Keeping one's eyes on and heart committed to following Jesus does. Time and extreme intentional transparency by all involved helps, but there's no real way to tell whether the other person is practicing that or pretending, is there? *sigh*

So, it seems from my perspective that these suggestions can "load the dice" in favor or against. They may even help to weed out some crazies. But I'm unconvinced that we can operate in full confidence via formula.

I could be wrong.
 
Keeping one's eyes on and heart committed to following Jesus does. Extreme intentional transparency by all involved helps, but there's no real way to tell whether the other person is practicing that or pretending, is there? *sigh*
Click to expand...

Now there is where a think a focus could be rightly placed. How to tell a pretender from one who is serious about the faith?

I doubt there is a comprehensive list to go by. But I certainly think watching the fruit of the Spirit play out in someone's life over a period of time (how much is subjective for sure) is key and and crucial to discern the difference. How one submits to authority, how one loves the unlovable (and we are all that way some days and times), how dedicated one is to the authority of Scripture, how one controls his or her emotions in a point of contention, those would be some key ways to know and areas where generally maturity or immaturity is seen and evidenced.

And when signs of immaturity are evidenced and arise steps to overcome those issues would be helpful.

Besides, it would give the man time to see how the woman will submit and it will give the woman time to see how the man would lead. if she does not like his leadership style she can choose to go elsewhere or remain single. If he does not like how well she submits he can choose not to take her. So time is needed and it probably is different for each person and situation.
 
I can only say that we told our kids not to even consider a serious long term relationship with anyone before a year. One listened and one didnt. The one who didn't is now divorced with 3 small kids. Of course I know it's not always like that. I know 3 women who each had 3 kids and were divorced and met wonderful mature men who eventually married them and now have great families. I also know many more who settle for quick security (they think) only to be miserable and sometimes have their children mistreated.

I guess from personal experience it's better when there is a lot of time in the courting period, especially if there are children involved. Blending families is rough even for the tough. My best friend married a 'godly man she met at church' quickly after her divorce and within a few months their kids were in a turf war that went on until each of them turned 18 and moved away. Now none of the kids really have anything to do with their parents because they feel that their mother and their father both put their personal persuits ahead of their children. When all this was happening I talked to the youngest daughter and she said her mother ruined all their lives because she was impatient and in a hurry for companionship. And that from a 12 year-old. It broke my heart.

I still vote for lots and lots of time. Time usually has a way of making things clear.
 
My 2 cents...

I think a lot of men confuse the desires of God and the desires of the flesh or just don't care about the desires of God. To them it is all about bedding another woman asap and hiding behind biblical teachings. I suspect it acts like a drug on the brain with all the excitement of change and a new woman.

Whenever I see a life altering decision looming in the future, I always do a "time out" reassess the situation with a clear head before making any decisions in haste, assessing my motivations, the needs of my family and future consequences.

If you add a new person to your life for the wrong reasons of course it will not work.

D
 
I have to agree with Cecil. Taking time and knowing somebody is not a guarantee that they will be good to you. I was born and raised in the same town and knew the man (boy actually) that I married very well. His violent nature was not glaringly obvious to me until my son was born and life became stressful. Granted, that is an extreme example. :? But we never truly know the person that we marry; therefore, a system of safeguards and oversight of this movement is so very needed. Otherwise, we are all encouraging something that has the potential to cause tremendous harm to families and women.

That being said, I am excited to see Dr. Allen express an interest in organizing and focusing the efforts of this particular forum towards being geared towards oversight of those men and women who would voluntarily place themselves under some sort of accountability. DonnaG is correct in stating that there is no real guidance out there for those who hope to step into ***CHRISTIAN*** Polygyny. This site has the potential to become the guiding light for a new movement. I am asking the moderators and the administrators and the staff of this board to seriously consider organizing. I will be the first to place my name upon your registry. As a woman, I don't want to go this alone considering that there are no legal protections for wives other than the first. I would want a man who would willingly place himself under some authority.

Ylop, would a registry of poly marriages and divorces slow the fools who rush in?
 
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