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Meat Complementarianism vs. Biblical Patriarchy

southernphotini said:
It’s a mirror image of God’s authority. We are adopted by the Father. Not slaves. That’s the theology of Islam, not Christianity.
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The scriptures use many different analogies to describe God's relationship to us: Husband-wives, Father-son, God-Christ, Arborist-vine, Shepard-Sheep, General-Soldier, King-Servant, and yes Master-Slave. As Paul explains in Romans 6:

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were [e]delivered. 18And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness [f]for holiness.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit [g]to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the [h]gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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We are literally slaves of God. Just as those not submitted to Christ find themselves drawn about by sin and pay the penalty thereof. We were purchased at the cost of Christ's blood. Our enslavement to Him is as real as His sacrifice. And like a slave we no longer do our own will but the will of Christ:

Take Up Your Cross
(Matthew 10:37-39; Matthew 16:24-28; Mark 8:34-38)

23And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose or forfeit his own self? 26For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in his own glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels. 27But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
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All who wear the name of Christ are chatel of God. How He directs us is His business. And when we obey those God has put in authority over us it is as if we are obeying God. The same holds true whether that is to an employer, a parent, or a husband. There is no option to rule ourselves, God merely directs that obedience owed Him towards others. As Paul explained to the Colossians:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only to please them while they are watching, but with sincerity of heart and fear of the Lord.

23Whatever you do, work at it with your whole being, for the Lord and not for men, 24because you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as your reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.
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southernphotini said:
I’m down with the crud so I asked friends for help.

“The Hebrew word is "Negedo" which Fr. Dr. Eugene Pentiuc, OT professor at Holy Cross GO Seminary, says has a meaning something to the effect of "one who can withstand you to your face", i.e. a counterpart or ally who can also confront you when warranted. He also has a very good book in this vein "Jesus the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible"”

Also: The Language of Creation | Matthieu Pageau | EP 292 - Jordan B. Peterson

I’m under the influence of NyQuil but I feel like these are correct. Both Pageau brothers are brilliant.
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kenegdo means counterpart, and is talking about the woman having a different body from the man.
 
southernphotini said:
I’m down with the crud so I asked friends for help.

“The Hebrew word is "Negedo" which Fr. Dr. Eugene Pentiuc, OT professor at Holy Cross GO Seminary, says has a meaning something to the effect of "one who can withstand you to your face", i.e. a counterpart or ally who can also confront you when warranted. He also has a very good book in this vein "Jesus the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible"”

Also: The Language of Creation | Matthieu Pageau | EP 292 - Jordan B. Peterson

I’m under the influence of NyQuil but I feel like these are correct. Both Pageau brothers are brilliant.
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Get better soon then come back, definitely want to get to the core of what we’re discussing. There’s so much room to talk past one another on forums like this. I feel like half the “arguments” here can be avoided with an actual face to face discussion and establishing terms.

I’m on the mend but now behind a full week in my responsibilities with work. Will touch base in a week or so.
 
southernphotini said:
“The Hebrew word is "Negedo" which Fr. Dr. Eugene Pentiuc, OT professor at Holy Cross GO Seminary, says has a meaning something to the effect of "one who can withstand you to your face", i.e. a counterpart or ally who can also confront you when warranted. He also has a very good book in this vein "Jesus the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible"”
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I'm just a little lost here. Where does the word "Negedo" fit into what we are talking about? What is the verse it appears in? We've covered a few verses and topics here and I'm not sure what this is referring to.
 
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NickF said:
There’s so much room to talk past one another on forums like this. I feel like half the “arguments” here can be avoided with an actual face to face discussion and establishing terms.
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Which is why the heart of this ministry is the in-person retreats. The forum is a very poor substitute in-between times, and can give a terrible impression of people as text is a limited medium. You cannot see the body language or hear the tone of the speaker when all you have is text, and the words themselves are only a fraction of how we communicate.

@southernphotini I would highly recommend going to a retreat, either a main retreat or a ladies retreat, regardless of your impression of people from this forum, to meet people you can have deeper in-person conversations with about anything.
 
FollowingHim said:
I'm just a little lost here. Where does the word "Negedo" fit into what we are talking about? What is the verse it appears in? We've covered a few verses and topics here and I'm not sure what this is referring to.
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I was referring to Genesis, the creation of Eve. I'm not digging into the multiplicity of verses people are throwing around. The original issue I was addressing was whether women were created as chattel. The Hebrew doesn't support that, and this is the same Hebrew word which is translated as Paraclete in the Greek, the NT word for the Holy Spirit.

For a woman to not be chattel is not remotely feminist and deeply scriptural. There is a liberation and elevation of women in Judaism that is expanded and brought to the Gentiles via Christianity. For a woman to be created as a counterpart to be contended with is not a negation of patriarchy but the purpose of it. It's why polygyny is essentially hypergamy.

Women were created from man's side, also the Hebrew word for stumbling block, when he was unconcious and without agency to show him his weaknesses in order that he may grow into greatness. Paul makes this very clear in his views on marriage, that the man and woman belong to each other, and so they have responsibility for each other. This does not negate any natural hierarchy.

If you own a business and your staff isn't acting as a supportive corrective for you, then your business will suffer. Patriarchy is the opposite of tyranny. It's a hierarchical order that mirrors creation itself by conquering chaos.

I may consider a retreat. I find conversations around tables and bonfires are usually preferable.
 
Ah, you mean in Genesis 2:18, the word translated "for him"?
www.blueletterbible.org

H5048 - neḡeḏ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

H5048 - נֶגֶד neged, neh'-ghed; from ; a front, i.e. part opposite; specifically a counterpart, or mate; usually (adverbial, especially with preposition) over against or before:—about, (over) against, aloof, far (off), from, over, presence, other side, sight, to view.
www.blueletterbible.org www.blueletterbible.org
I think your friend is reading far too much into this word. We need to use scripture to interpret scripture. Scroll down at that reference and look at how it is used in the rest of scripture. It's just used as a preposition - it is used to mean "before". The vast majority of the time it is simply describing that something is located in front of a person. All Israel shall appear before the Lord. Thou shalt see the land before thee. The people came before the city. The captain fell on his knees before Elijah. And so forth.

Taking that simple meaning back to Genesis 2:18, God created Eve with the intention of placing her before Adam, presenting her to Adam (giving her to Adam).

The idea of it implying something adversarial is extremely obscure. In fact, the idea does not appear at all in Strongs, BDB or Gesenius, the major reputable lexicons, all three of which are quoted in full at the above link. I can't see where it has come from.
 
southernphotini said:
and this is the same Hebrew word which is translated as Paraclete in the Greek, the NT word for the Holy Spirit.
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You're getting your words crossed. There are two Hebrew words of relevance here:
`ezer ("an help meet"), and
neged ("for him").

It is `ezer that might be translated as Paraclete. This word simply means "help". Again it does not have an adversarial connotation.
www.blueletterbible.org

H5828 - ʿēzer - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

H5828 - עֵזֶר ʻêzer, ay'-zer; from ; aid:—help.
www.blueletterbible.org www.blueletterbible.org
Edit: I don't actually see a link between `ezer and paraclete. I can't see any example in the LXX where `ezer is translated as paraclete, it is actually translated as βοηθός - which again simply means helper.
www.blueletterbible.org

G998 - boēthos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G998 - βοηθός boēthós, bo-ay-thos'; from and theo (to run); a succorer:—helper.
www.blueletterbible.org www.blueletterbible.org
 
FollowingHim said:
The idea of it implying something adversarial is extremely obscure. In fact, the idea does not appear at all in Strongs, BDB or Gesenius, the major reputable lexicons, all three of which are quoted in full at the above link. I can't see where it has come from.
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That idea is present in the link you quoted. It’s in the preview, even.

It may be obscure in Western Christianity but it’s been widely accepted in Eastern Christianity, which has had a far more intimate relationship with both Greek and Hebrew for its entire existence.
 
FollowingHim said:
Where? I don't see it anywhere.
Did you misread the word "adverbial"?
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I think the word "adversarial" is the issue and perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.

Your link states "over against or before:—about, (over) against, × aloof, × far (off), × from, over, presence, × other side, sight, × to view."

There's a natural tension, an opposition, that is intentional.

I'm not a theologian. I'm an essayist and an accountant. But there's literally 2,000 years of this understanding in Eastern Christianity alone. That understanding is also present in Orthodox Judaism. I believe I have heard both Dennis Prager and Ben Shapiro discuss it.
 
rockfox said:
That's just a fancy way of saying equality. No man wants a contentious wife.

Proverbs 21:19 "Better to dwell in the wilderness, Than with a contentious and angry woman."
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Moses' wife saved his life.

I never used the word equality or advocated it. Straw man.
 
I understand what you're saying @southernphotini. I just can't see from the Hebrew itself where this idea has come from.

There are a small number of cases where the word is used in an adversarial situation, but they are rare and this connotation is provided by the context. For instance, in Judges 20:34 an army comes "against" Gibeah - but it just means an army came "before" the town of Gibeah, the word "against" is used by the translators simply because we already know from the context that the army intended to attack them.

This understanding may be more consistent with the LXX. The word is translated "kata" in the Greek of Genesis 2:18, and that word is used a reasonable subset of the time to mean "against" - e.g. Matthew 5:11, "shall say all manner of evil against you". But even that is a minority of the time, it is usually translated as "according to" and has a neutral connotation. And the adversarial connotation even in Matthew 5:11 comes from the context, not the word "kata".
 
southernphotini said:
I never used the word equality or advocated it. Straw man.
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No you just don't like the conclusion. A man doesn't want to have to contend with his woman, it is an inherently adversarial relationship. And women don't like men they have to correct instead of looking up to. The relationship should be more teacher-student than iron sharpens iron. He is to be her spiritual leader and she his helper.
 
rockfox said:
No you just don't like the conclusion. A man doesn't want to have to contend with his woman, it is an inherently adversarial relationship. And women don't like men they have to correct instead of looking up to. The relationship should be more teacher-student than iron sharpens iron. He is to be her spiritual leader and she his helper.
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To expand a little.

Why would a man want to have dominance fight in his household? There is no reason from his perspective.

And even if wants such fight, another man is better choice.
 
Berean patriot has an excellent article on the role of women in the household. In that article, he linked to a clip from Star Trek as an illustration of how a wife (executive officer) can offer advice while remaining under the authority of her husband (Captain).
www.bereanpatriot.com

How Crucial are Women to a Biblical Household? Very! - Berean Patriot

This article is sort of a follow-up/spin-off to my article What’s the Best Bible Translation? And More Importantly, Why? In that article, I make the case that the Bible primarily uses masculine language addressed to men. A few days ago, a woman left a comment on that article, and her comment...
www.bereanpatriot.com

 
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