The problem is that it is more spiritual and ubiquitous than you realize.
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Meat Complementarianism vs. Biblical Patriarchy
- Thread starter HomesteadWife
- Start date
I don’t think I’m far off to say that those of us who have been run through the family court system have emerged with a form of shell shock that will stay with us for the rest of our lives.
It’s been 17 years since I went through it all and it’s still having a material effect on my financial and personal life daily. I have a grandchild I’ve never met because my daughter thinks I’m a raging misogynist because her mother told her so. Maybe it’s only a small minority of women but they do so much damage and they have so much power that you have to defend yourself and the rest of your family from them once you’ve ever met one. You can’t just go back to being who you were and doing what you did before.
I'm not disregarding your bad experiences, particularly with the court system which so adamantly favors women. I understand what y'all are saying to an extent, I also agree with @rockfox sentiment when it comes to warning of the possibilities. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still only a possibility.
I'm sure this seemingly comes across as a prideful from my side but it's not, it's more of a concern. I'll have plenty of my own issues and f*ck ups to answer for with my future husband without him placing the additional burden from prior bad experiences onto my plate as well.
I'm sure this seemingly comes across as a prideful from my side but it's not, it's more of a concern. I'll have plenty of my own issues and f*ck ups to answer for with my future husband without him placing the additional burden from prior bad experiences onto my plate as well.
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That could certainly be a possibility.
There are good women and there are bad women. There are Godly men and there are s***y men. Real important that you get to know deeply the person you are about to marry, casue you can't go back and re-do. Bottom line, don't rush into anything. Yeah I know people can put on fronts and lie and then change after marriage to this other person. I just believe in kindness. It helps my wife to follow and obey if I am kind, generous, and loving. Does she still have to obey anyways if I am mean, yes. But why not make it easier for her to do so by not going around being an @ss.
That is a no brainer and so basic the question shouldn't even have to be asked. Yet there are some men who seem to delight in being an @ss to their wife or wives (and to other people generally). Whether it's wives, children, employees or whoever, we should be making obedience simple and something they want to accomplish.
Now you're setting up a straw man.
I will ask my wife opinions on things. Funny thing though, when she finally fully embraced submission she suddenly no longer felt the huge need to make suggestions, be consulted on every little thing, or correct me all the time. Instead she had learned to trust my judgement and realized that I would, and always had, consulted her when appropriate.
But that is not the same as...
Funny thing one learns in leadership: rarely are decisions black and white, right and wrong. Very often its a judgment call based on impartial information where there is no clear right answer. A woman who sit's in judgement of her husbands decisions is a recipe for trouble.
We are called to dwell with women in an understanding nature. Every woman is different yes, but most women are similar. You ain't special. 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man." These men are warning against situations which have been found to frequently cause trouble.
You act like it's rare. It's not.
50% of all marriages fail and 96% of the time the wife killed it.
The other 50%? Most men in long term marriages are shocked to find out my wife and I still regularly have passionate sex.
There will always be crap people.
If laws were good, such people would be tiny minority. Regretfully, the the more laws are bad more crap people exist.
Definitely not, nor did I ever mention unicorns. That seems to be your hang up, not mine. It is however pretty apparent why you have so many bad interactions with other people.
And I'm warning that treating women in such a manner may cause you to miss out on some good ones who see that type of behavior as a huge red flag. Another possibility is that you could cause a good one to eventually just get tired of your sh*t.
To see if I'm following the analogy correctly, are you suggesting that not seeking a wife's input is comparable in some ways to killing a man you've never seen before and isn't interacting with you in any way on the street?
I ask because the gravity seems extremely escalated, the type of reaction is different (inaction in the first vs action in the second), and the type of cause/motivation is also different (maintenance of order in the first vs unprovoked fear in the second).
If this is how you wanted your analogy to be understood, then I imagine you're attempting to draw attention primarily to the parallel of treating someone in a certain way because of how others have been treated by people of that person's type. This is a good thing to keep in mind, but I don't think it's applicable.
The scenario might be more accurate if it was described as killing a man who came up to you with a knife. Or, even more accurate, if you were to carry a weapon and practice vigilance, as you've described you do.
Really, that is what seems to be described here: practice vigilance. Some men can be violent on the street, so carry a weapon and know how to use it, and don't let them get too close to you. Some women can be judgemental and destructive in the marriage, so keep an eye on it and don't let them get too close to casting judgement.
Shooting a random man just because you see him would be more like divorcing a woman just because she stated her opinion.
I'm saying that men are more prone to specific traits because of how they were created, just as women are. That doesn't mean everyone uses those traits for evil or at all. Rockfox's argument was that women are not special, that we all stem from the curse of Eve. I'm suggesting that quoting scripture to fit your biased narrative in order to excuse you wrongly misjudging someone's character based on your own bad experiences with the opposite sex is going to cause you to miss out on good people in life.
I would agree with your view. But I wonder if Rockfox is describing something a little different from what you describe.
An analogy:
Nowadays, alcohol is often warned against. Someone might say "Alcohol is dangerous!". Some people hear that and think what is being said is "have some alcohol, but do not have too much, however much that is". Others hear that and think what is being said is "do not have any alcohol, because it will harm you". People in the second camp will either heed the warning and abstain from alcohol entirely, or will think that's a ridiculous thing and ignore the warning entirely.
I often find myself in the second camp on various issues, and then take the first path.
I could be wrong, but I think you may be interpreting his statements in a way similar to those in that second camp, whereas he may be meaning it more like the interpretation of the first camp. His warning seems to be that we should be careful, because there is danger.
I have observed some of what he talks about. I've never been married, so I haven't seen it in my own life, but in others. What he talks about is often subtly taught in some churches, even in my own highly-conservative area. So when he mentions these things, he is coming from that perspective. You have your own perspective, which may be the polar opposite to his. Because you are both looking at the issue from different positions, you might be using different words to describe the same thing.
You might hear "Women providing advice is dangerous!" and think he is saying "Women should never speak or give their opinion!", but he may be saying something different. To me, it sounds more like "Do not let women control you, because some will try!". Also, he may not hold the opinion that all women do this, just that it is common enough to be careful about. You carry a gun for the same reason: violence is common enough to be careful about.
An analogy:
Nowadays, alcohol is often warned against. Someone might say "Alcohol is dangerous!". Some people hear that and think what is being said is "have some alcohol, but do not have too much, however much that is". Others hear that and think what is being said is "do not have any alcohol, because it will harm you". People in the second camp will either heed the warning and abstain from alcohol entirely, or will think that's a ridiculous thing and ignore the warning entirely.
I often find myself in the second camp on various issues, and then take the first path.
I could be wrong, but I think you may be interpreting his statements in a way similar to those in that second camp, whereas he may be meaning it more like the interpretation of the first camp. His warning seems to be that we should be careful, because there is danger.
I have observed some of what he talks about. I've never been married, so I haven't seen it in my own life, but in others. What he talks about is often subtly taught in some churches, even in my own highly-conservative area. So when he mentions these things, he is coming from that perspective. You have your own perspective, which may be the polar opposite to his. Because you are both looking at the issue from different positions, you might be using different words to describe the same thing.
You might hear "Women providing advice is dangerous!" and think he is saying "Women should never speak or give their opinion!", but he may be saying something different. To me, it sounds more like "Do not let women control you, because some will try!". Also, he may not hold the opinion that all women do this, just that it is common enough to be careful about. You carry a gun for the same reason: violence is common enough to be careful about.
Exactly.
It’d be great if we all lived sinless, the way that we were created. But we don’t.
There is a flavor that keeps coming out in this thread. It, in some cases, is extremely subtle. But it is often taught in a much more blatant manner.
That teaching is: Men shouldn’t really trust themselves, Yah gave them an helpmate whom they can rely on.
It didn’t work for Adam, Abram nor Jacob, just to name a few off the top of my head.
We want women to be the innocent ones that they can be, but we have to be prepared for the fact that they are human and have the fallen natures the same as the rest of us.
And @rockfox is merely trying to bring the balance.
I think that side is already well spoken for lol
Both have been. I hope you don't think you're not being heard. Possibly why it seems more are sitting on the other side of the seesaw is because they are trying to balance not just what you and a few others have said, but also the enormous and dangerous group they see you all as representing, even though that's not your intention. But, on the other hand, you also see them as representing something they have no intention of. So, there's been some projecting going on that shouldn't have been, and you're feeling the heat of that wrath as well as serving up some heat for things nobody meant to say. There's also the different assumptions of the meanings of words I mentioned earlier in this thread that seems to still be in play, especially about the meaning of the word "advise". You're not wrong, but neither are they, in general and as far as I see it.
This is not to say it is not good to wrestle over these things. This has been a good tug-of-war. All the same, I'm pretty sure this thread has been well-beaten into a smooth object by now. Might be time to get up and shake hands.
