Women, how do you feel about the forum?

[Keith Martin]

It's not a scam. It's a genuine woman, acting in an emotive fashion. We might disagree with her method, but let's not attack her over her method. That sort of thing puts women off posting. Women in difficult and emotive situations talk like emotive women. It's their nature, as @rockfox has pointed out. Or maybe it isn't, and it's just how they've been raised, but either way it's how they are today. Yes, we could argue that they should speak in a different fashion. But that's not actually going to do anything to help them. The woman you speak of is in a genuinely difficult situation (I know more about this from conversations with her in private). I am willing to put up with imperfect expression of this on the forum due to the emotion of the situation. We cannot expect people in emotive situations to express themselves in the way we think is best.

Furthermore, this woman was not coming in to debate with the men, so this is not a case where she needs a thick skin. She's coming with a thin skin, hurting, calling out for help in her own way. This is a hurt woman expressing a point of view. And you're continuing to attack her over it. That is uncalled for, even if there are far better ways she could have stated her piece.

This is a marriage ministry. It is a place for hurting men and women to come and cry out for help. Let's not attack them over precisely how they choose to cry out.

This is why I have added the label system, including "support" and "meat". In the meat threads, let's expect women to have a thick skin. But in support threads, let's not expect that at all.

You have made an excellent point, Samuel. People who need help do not always do so in the most appropriate way, but my point was to distinguish between what is and isn't appropriate, just as you have done. I keep hearing you say that this is a marriage ministry, but is it a marriage ministry that requires that the helpers have thick skin and should expect that helpees will start off by speaking abusively about the helpers? If so, then we could just as likely end up having to worry about whether not just the women but anyone is going to want to stick around.

I believe a solution is going to have to involve ferreting out a lot more nuance than to just blanketly blame men for any instance in which a woman didn't feel comforted, even when she was being antagonistic.

Please also recognize that I wasn't in any way asserting that the woman in question wasn't abused, even though she only eventually made that allegation and we have no way of corroborating that because she didn't identify her husband and we haven't heard from him. The scam to which I referred was her framing her attack on biblical polygamy and arguing against a position without identifying who had taken the position, which would naturally be inferred to mean that the position was held by Biblical Families.

I would be entirely comfortable, though, if you removed the section of my post that you quoted above and also removed your criticism of it. If it's harmful to the purpose of this thread, then please feel free to get rid of it.

 

[Pacman]

Just going over it again. I wouldn’t agree at all that no personal attacks actually happened towards her. For example, her response to multiple comments http://Just an observation and http://Just an observation

Bro I read both links and I understand that she felt that way. What I don’t see is any justification for her to have felt that way. What are the specific things said that caused her to feel attacked? Which posts? I am fully willing to adjust my wording while interacting with the ladies. But I can’t change it for the future if we don’t know what the problem was.

 

[steve]

This is why I have added the label system, including "support" and "meat". In the meat threads, let's expect women to have a thick skin. But in support threads, let's not expect that at all.

While I am sure that this will be helpful, I don’t believe that it will be this simple.
Labeling a meat thread is going to be a red flag to a person who is feeling combative. Pointing out to them that their feelings got hurt in an arena that has a written guarantee for hurt feelings is going to be perceived as further bullying.

 

[FollowingHim2]

Early on I actually felt like I was attacked while sharing something that happened in my life. Since then I have rarely posted.

Yep--I know the feeling. Actually having the courage to share something personal that has happened in my life in a group forum where often you don't even know the people you're interacting with can be very difficult and obviously one takes the risk. The few times I have taken the risk, I honestly felt what I had to share was pertinent to the thread and/or might actually be an encouragement or help to someone who was posting in the thread. That was my motivation to take the risk. The attack at times left me reeling because it came out of left field so to speak and certainly wasn't something I'd expected in the midst of sharing something personal and already difficult. In some cases in was days or weeks before I'd get back on.

These are real women, sharing real situations that happened to them personally. These were not women getting into a debate with the men. These were not MEAT discussions. These weren't pulling apart scripture to it's bare bones discussions.

We're not asking for men to suddenly put on kid gloves or turn the other way if we post something unscriptural, or if we choose to get into one of the heavier debates. There aren't many of us on here that actually want to be involved in those discussions at all. There is so much more to the forum than the ladies only section, and not all of it is solid debates. We should be able to post in other places and share our personal stories and be able to help others without fear of being attacked. Surely this isn't actually asking for much?

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Bro I read both links and I understand that she felt that way. What I don’t see is any justification for her to have felt that way. What are the specific things said that caused her to feel attacked? Which posts? I am fully willing to adjust my wording while interacting with the ladies. But I can’t change it for the future if we don’t know what the problem was.

My opinion on that particular thread is that she was posting an opinion and a particular viewpoint, (which she’s entitled to even if its wrong) and multiple guys jumped on the one or two items that are their own personal trigger, and proceeded to absolutely ruin a thread that had all kinds of upside potential for encouraging discussion with the women about what is probably the largest hurdle most families have in realizing a plural family.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

While I am sure that this will be helpful, I don’t believe that it will be this simple.
Labeling a meat thread is going to be a fed flag to a person who is feeling combative. Pointing out to them that their feelings got hurt in an arena that has a written guarantee for hurt feelings is going to be perceived as further bullying.

I believe it 100% My takeaway about fools from proverbs is there's almost no good solution for dealing with them.

I think this will be a great benefit for those who can already foresee evil coming and get out of the way.

 

[Keith Martin]

My opinion on that particular thread is that she was posting an opinion and a particular viewpoint, (which she’s entitled to even if its wrong) and multiple guys jumped on the one or two items that are their own personal trigger, and proceeded to absolutely ruin a thread that had all kinds of upside potential for encouraging discussion with the women about what is probably the largest hurdle most families have in realizing a plural family.

I predominantly agree with you about what you've just written, @Verifyveritas. Having missed the thread when it was going on due to being off the grid myself at that time, I consider it a shame that the net result is a failure to fully take advantage of what I consider to be great wisdom on Jennifer's part. My only real problem with her was that I consider her responsible for purposefully initiating the discussion, which was not done in a vacuum, given that numerous other threads were simultaneously taking place on which men were voicing the types of comments she criticized. I also thought she was a bit coy with all her sexual innuendo. Had she separated out her three themes (let's argue about the definition of submission; let's talk about how men can improve their lives in the bedroom; and let's talk from a woman's point of view about how to successfully persuade reluctant first wives to welcome plural marriage), I believe the result would have been entirely different. The submission discussion itself may have gone south, but it would have been mostly limited to heavy breathers on either side of the debate. And most who ended up being party to or witnesses of the ultimate wreckage because they got roped in by its other promises would have instead been too enthralled with how to convince their wives to accept polygamy and what to do to improve life in the bedroom!

 

[Keith Martin]

These are real women, sharing real situations that happened to them personally. These were not women getting into a debate with the men. These were not MEAT discussions. These weren't pulling apart scripture to it's bare bones discussions.

We're not asking for men to suddenly put on kid gloves or turn the other way if we post something unscriptural, or if we choose to get into one of the heavier debates. There aren't many of us on here that actually want to be involved in those discussions at all. There is so much more to the forum than the ladies only section, and not all of it is solid debates. We should be able to post in other places and share our personal stories and be able to help others without fear of being attacked. Surely this isn't actually asking for much?

I personally entirely agree with you about the two situations you mentioned, although I must acknowledge that I know nothing about what happened to @MaryandJim, but given her bare bones description and its lack of any accusatory invective leads me to take her completely at face value. It is certainly worthwhile for us to do whatever we can reasonably do (without gagging everyone) to eliminate bullying. I don't even like it at all when I see men doing it to men, but it should go without saying that men bullying women is beyond the pale.

I just disagree that those who behave in a combative manner -- even a stealthy, covertly, indirectly or 'femininely' combative manner -- can cry a bullying foul when it comes back at them. Even a woman who truly needs help is a big enough girl to learn how to properly ask for assistance and empathy. Feeling pushed away enough times can inspire a person to eventually reevaluate hir approach in order to decide which is more important, casting aspersions or asking for help in a way that produces such support in spades.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Here are a few thoughts on the subject, for whatever they are worth.

I think one big factor that fuels the situations we would like to prevent is that many members here
1. Believe in absolute knowable truth.
and
2. Are very willing to defend it at all costs.

My mom was that kind...but I have seen the "dark side" of those kind of good intentions.
I am more of the belief that the truth doesn't need to be defended because it is self evident (to those willing or with eyes to 'see') and will stand no matter what. The doctrinal battles that are waged here can at times be a poor witness, not because people maintain a position, but because they treat those on the other "side" like the enemy.

My mom once argued her belief that horse shoers bought precast shoes from different makers using a slightly different mold so that they had shoes that were closer to fitting various horses hooves before shaping. I never went to school for shoeing, but had learned enough to shoe my own horses. That bit of knowlege gained from experience made me far more the authority on the subject then my mom. I quit arguing when it became apparent she would never concede, and was not listening to my logic. It didn't make her look smart, or wise....and in reality she wasn't either in this matter.

A recent gem in the quote page said
"We don't really know anything, we just believe beyond doubt."

Given that our best efforts will likely fall short of perfect knowlege, maybe we could all focus on using what we have to bless and build others up. Look at their worldview and show them how the piece of knowledge you have that they are missing would help them, instead of putting them on the defensive by pulling apart their current understanding.
I believe it would be more evident we are believers if we share more fruit!

On the fruit forum I visit those who are successful growers are sought out, their knowledge is valued, and their harvests prove their wisdom. The fruit forum doesn't experience the kind of issue being faced here because members would never tell someone that they are WRONG for how they grow their blueberries or trim their peach tree.

There is another factor that belongs in the above list.
3. They believe they already know the truth (see point 1 above) and are justified in handing out hard truths (bitter and sour fruit?) that are believed to be good for the one on the receiving end.

Now this may be true, but if it is not sweetened with love is not likely to be accepted (consumed). Then too at some point the one so confident today may realize they were ignorant of some aspect of either their own understanding, or the recipients situation. The more forceful you are, the bigger fool you will feel (and be) should that happen.
I remember a plaque on a wall that read

"Make the words you speak today tender warm and sweet, for tomorrow they may well be, words you'll have to EAT!"

The scripture is to help the man of God be fully fitted for every good work.
The works of the devil (false accuser traducer, slanderer) are too often accomplished by believers who forget who's kingdom they want to build, and how its done.

 

[The Revolting Man]

These are real women, sharing real situations that happened to them personally. These were not women getting into a debate with the men. These were not MEAT discussions. These weren't pulling apart scripture to it's bare bones discussions.

We're not asking for men to suddenly put on kid gloves or turn the other way if we post something unscriptural, or if we choose to get into one of the heavier debates. There aren't many of us on here that actually want to be involved in those discussions at all. There is so much more to the forum than the ladies only section, and not all of it is solid debates. We should be able to post in other places and share our personal stories and be able to help others without fear of being attacked. Surely this isn't actually asking for much?

I think most of us don’t think women get attacked on the forum simply for engaging. We don’t see what was inappropriately combative in the situations brought to us so far. @Pacman has said it several times now and it’s the right point. How do you want us to change a problem we can’t identify. We can’t adjust for anyone’s feelings. It’s not possible and it’s not advisable. We keep hearing on some women feel some of the time and there’s not an honest man on here that can say that is actionable intelligence for him.

 

[MrB]

So Zec
What was the justification for labeling Her as Poison?
In not inappropriately combative
How did you get to that point of her being labeled by you?

I get frustrated when there is a glimmer of hope that there will be a new point or perspective
And then the same old people jump in defending the same points they have made many times over the last ten years
Effectively sucking the oxygen out of the room and killing any possibility of a fresh perspective
How do we encourage new people with a different perspective if when they turn up they get smashed because they are new and different .

 

[Pacman]

So Zec
What was the justification for labeling Her as Poison?

There is information you may not be privy to. I’m not defending his statement @ZecAustin is more than capable of that but you should be careful wading into something you may not have all the information about.

 

[FollowingHim]

@MrB, I'm not justifying @ZecAustin's statement either, but @Pacman is correct that this is the tip of a massive and extremely complicated iceberg. The answer to that specific question (right or wrong) would not be appropriate here, and would simply drag this conversation in an unprofitable direction. I'm trying to get rid of such inappropriate public statements from this thread. If you wish to understand this further, contact whoever you'd like to discuss it with in private. But I will point out that there are several very frank discussions actively underway by people who already know what's going on, so there is no real need for further people to get involved.

But I do agree with your general observations in the second half of your post.

 

[Keith Martin]

How do we encourage new people with a different perspective if when they turn up they get smashed because they are new and different .

I can only answer this one for myself.

Part of what encouraged me to participate with my different perspective was getting smashed for being new and different. But, then again, I'm 65 and gave up on being popular over 4 decades ago, so in addition to being drawn to situations in which I can combine getting grief for being different with still being allowed to participate, I'm so thoroughly convinced that I'm awesome just the way I am in God's eyes that I don't assess what I'm going to do next based on whether someone else is going to fully approve or not.

I recognize that's probably not representative of all men and may be far from representative of most women, but it does mean that being challenged and even wrongly interpreted isn't universally off-putting.

 

[The Revolting Man]

So Zec
What was the justification for labeling Her as Poison?
In not inappropriately combative
How did you get to that point of her being labeled by you?

I get frustrated when there is a glimmer of hope that there will be a new point or perspective
And then the same old people jump in defending the same points they have made many times over the last ten years
Effectively sucking the oxygen out of the room and killing any possibility of a fresh perspective
How do we encourage new people with a different perspective if when they turn up they get smashed because they are new and different .

It’s a fair question and the only answer I will give you at this point is that I did have some inside information but her conversation on the open forum should have been enough to clue anyone that she was at best unserious.

Ultimately it was a judgement call. I identified her as a threat to the community and took action to mitigate it. I have done so before and most likely will again. The great thing about this though is that if you feel that I am a threat to the community then your are almost honor bound to mitigate that threat. This is our calling from God as moral arbiters. We can’t be nice and accomadating after a certain point. As I told Samuel recently about this situation there comes a time to climb up on your high horse and ride. Sometimes I can’t find a reason to get off my high horse!

 

[Dairyfarmer]

We can’t be nice and accomadating after a certain point. As I told Samuel recently about this situation there comes a time to climb up on your high horse and ride. Sometimes I can’t find a reason to get off my high horse!

I thought Christ told us to love and respect everyone, if we can't we are supposed to say nothing just wipe the dust off our feet and walk away. you will never win a person to Christ by holding a iron fist over them.

 

[Keith Martin]

I thought Christ told us to love and respect everyone, if we can't we are supposed to say nothing just wipe the dust off our feet and walk away. you will never win a person to Christ by holding a iron fist over them.

Love is not just unicorns in poppy fields leading up to rainbows that traverse the sky to pots of gold being cradled by cherubim and seraphim. It comes in many forms, some quite snuggly but others fierce and fiery, because sometimes the deepest love is that which is willing to step outside of comfort zones to maximize the likelihood that long-term well-being for not only the person being focused on but others for whom that person may affect is accomplished.

It can be deeply disrespectful to have low expectations for another human being. It can also be the opposite of love to have a rigid strategy of walking away, because it risks being no different from turning one's back.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I thought Christ told us to love and respect everyone, if we can't we are supposed to say nothing just wipe the dust off our feet and walk away. you will never win a person to Christ by holding a iron fist over them.

I wasn’t trying to win her. I was trying to defend against her. You wipe your feet off at the gates of the places you went to. You don’t wipe the dust off your feet at your own door. Christ braided a whip and drove the money changers out of the Temple, up being their tables and scattering their sheep. That was criminal mischief, affray, assault with a deadly, unlawful disturbance, several kinds of theft and all with malice afore thought.

Jesus was no hemp wearing, barefoot hippy. He does not want us to be weak victims but rather defenders of the weak. To defend you have to be strong and aggressive. The mamby-pamby milksop church is dying. The remnant will be those who are willing to engage in civil disobedience and underground resistance.

 

[FollowingHim]

Very true @Keith Martin, but it's half of the picture.
There's an imbalance here because those who are good at dispensing the fierce & fiery forms of love (which are valid) dominate the discussion, and those who are better at dispensing the snuggly forms (also valid) don't turn up much. I'd like to see a lot more of people like @MrB and @Dairyfarmer here to provide that balance.

 

[FollowingHim]

Companion thread now here for discussion of why men may choose not to engage on the forum. This is an important issue, because it could be one of the fundamental causes for why some women are uncomfortable. Please go over there and add your thoughts, particularly if you don't use the forum often so have more of an outside perspective and can tell us how this looks to people turning up from the outside world.