Women, how do you feel about the forum?

[Cap]

Sooo derailed. I think boys have squirrels in their heads more then women do, lol.
@julieb, I think it would be beneficial for the women who are struggling or trying to accept certain things for the men to restrict harsh comments towards women. I really would like to participate in deeper discussions.... I would like to learn, converse and grow. I’ve resorted to PM or ladies only. NOT because I have personally been treated harshly, but because I choose not to put myself out there. I don’t join in on much of the men’s discussions because some topics are best left to the men who know what they’re talking about. And really my husband has all the answers, so I ask him for clarity, as it seems most wives trust their husband’s opinion and leadership on doctrine.
I was told by a lady, that a woman deserved her harsh counter attack here because it’s a man’s forum.
It’s a Family Forum. Grrrr.

Chivalry is not dead. Most men here I think would stand up if a lady walked up to a table. I think your post @Well loved wife is a good one. Let's call it eChivalry.

 

[FollowingHim2]

I do think the men should practice more restraint when a woman posts. Consider it practice at talking and communicating with your wife which I suspect can always use some improvement at home.

I agree.

So, is that really a bad thing? Are we sitting at home wishing we could post on a certain subject? I am sure there are times but for the most part I think us women are good to read and ask our husbands. Tell me if I am off on this.

Yes, frequently that is that case with me, I read and then speak to Samuel about it, and I'm comfortable doing that. The main thing is that I don't want women being scared away from the entire forum because of how men are treating them or other women on here.
I know for a fact that at least one women has messaged me recently to tell me she will not be returning to the forum because of the atmosphere on here. That's what I want to prevent.

 

[FollowingHim]

This thread is a really good illustration of the whole point of this discussion, so I'm going to use it as an example :

https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/just-an-observation.14453/page-12

In the discussion with Jennifer, the men generally believed they were debating with Jennifer and her husband (I'm not going into the specifics of the discussion, that's not the point).

But the other women reading it saw it as "how I'll be treated if I speak my mind and the men disagree". This discussion did not just affect Jennifer. It dissuaded ALL of the ladies from speaking. That was not the intention of the men - but it was the result. Multiple ladies have expressed this to me and Sarah over the months since that discussion, I know very well that this had deep, serious, and wide-ranging impacts well beyond what the men involved intended.

We must consider the wider context, not just the one comment we are responding to.

 

[FollowingHim]

I was told by a lady, that a woman deserved her harsh counter attack here because it’s a man’s forum.
It’s a Family Forum. Grrrr.

This is true. This is not a man's forum, it is a family forum. Because it's a marriage ministry.

And I would be open to any suggestion to make things "safer" for the ladies but personalities and gender seem to just naturally keep us away. So, is that really a bad thing? Are we sitting at home wishing we could post on a certain subject? I am sure there are times but for the most part I think us women are good to read and ask our husbands. Tell me if I am off on this.

While this is also true. It is natural that the majority of posts will be by men - the ladies tend to talk to each other in other settings (e.g. the ladies chat). And that's ok.

But that doesn't change the fact that the women need to feel safe to speak when they need to. We need a friendly atmosphere so a woman in need will be comfortable baring her soul to us and asking for help, without fear of being attacked because she said something wrong.

 

[PeteR]

A coulle of my thoughts in the Jennifer thread were, 'would I want another man addressing my wife that way?' And, 'do I, as a man, have the right to address another man's wife in the way she was spoken to?' In both cases the answer was/is a resounding 'NO!'

Nowhere in scripture do I have the right address another's servant ( I think the context is addressing one who answers to Messiah as I do, therefore, Messiah is to address/correct etc. The illustration breaks down, but we get the point.)

As a man, I try to remind myself that a married woman is under another man's authority, therefore I have to respect his authority whether I respect her or not.. if a wife is way off the rails, best course of action is to speak to her husband...

 

[Joleneakamama]

As a man, I try to remind myself that a married woman is under another man's authority, therefore I have to respect his authority whether I respect her or not.. if a wife is way off the rails, best course of action is to speak to her husband...

Good point!
Here on the forum a secondary option exists if perhaps the woman's husband is unknown of reporting concerns to a mod or admin.

 

[Cap]

A coulle of my thoughts in the Jennifer thread were, 'would I want another man addressing my wife that way?' And, 'do I, as a man, have the right to address another man's wife in the way she was spoken to?' In both cases the answer was/is a resounding 'NO!'

Nowhere in scripture do I have the right address another's servant ( I think the context is addressing one who answers to Messiah as I do, therefore, Messiah is to address/correct etc. The illustration breaks down, but we get the point.)

As a man, I try to remind myself that a married woman is under another man's authority, therefore I have to respect his authority whether I respect her or not.. if a wife is way off the rails, best course of action is to speak to her husband...

One thing to be careful with though is when women directly confronts a man on the forum or in a public setting. (Not saying Jennifer did) She may understand her place with her husband but feel that a forum like this is fare game.

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

I'm a INTJ/ENTJ according to the results of the 3 test I took, because once could be wrong, twice a coincidence, three times a pattern forms. all three said both.

The trick is to take it like you were a child. Alot of our natural traits can be trained out. Like naturally I am not a prompt person in the slightest but my time in the military has got me showing up on time.

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

So I just read some of the comments and examples in the past and man.... Were a bunch of jerks. As men we should prob real it in a good 50% and that should put us on par with sailors.

 

[julieb]

As a man, I try to remind myself that a married woman is under another man's authority, therefore I have to respect his authority whether I respect her or not.. if a wife is way off the rails, best course of action is to speak to her husband...

How is this walked out? Do the men try to stick with "If it was my wife asking this question then I would...."? Do we not let married women post if their husband's aren't members? Or do we direct ladies to post only in the Ladies Only section? That doesn't seem fair, they might really want to hear what other men have to say. But then you are back to not stepping on her husband's authority and what he might be telling her that she doesn't agree with. It is less complicated for single ladies but restraint and kindness are best used if you disagree with what the single lady is saying. Unfortunately, we tend to have hurt and angry ladies post here which requires all of us to think about how we can post challenges with compassion along with show the love of Christ. Also, I have thought it wonderful that several men have asked ladies to limit what they say in a negative way about their husbands. I think this is a good policy, though it might seem odd to ask them to "watch their tongue", I believe it is the right thing to say.

In my opinion, the men (who are main posters) have to take responsibility for setting the tone for this Forum.

Edit: This is not a dating site but it certainly can lead to meeting a potential at a retreat. What kind of character would you desire her to see in your postings to other ladies?

 

[Slumberfreeze]

How is this walked out? Do the men try to stick with "If it was my wife asking this question then I would...."?

For me it means that I stop discussing/debating a given doctrine with a woman if I know her husband is the one teaching it, because there are so many doctrines that are not salvation issues. Cases are rare where I'd think it was my place to arm a lady with my (obviously superior) logic against her own husband.

That doesn't seem fair, they might really want to hear what other men have to say. But then you are back to not stepping on her husband's authority and what he might be telling her that she doesn't agree with.

You know, I haven't really thought of it like that before, but that gives me a new level of appreciation for the privileged of having dust-ups with the fellas. So much less complicated!

What kind of character would you desire her to see in your postings to other ladies?

I don't know for sure if that could be a motivator for me. If a girl sees me going full retard on the forums but still likes me in person, I see that as an absolute win!

I do take your point though. Unfortunately I don't know what can be done to curb the overall tone, aside from everyone simply growing in christ-like meekness and gentleness like we were supposed to have been doing all along.

 

[PeteR]

How is this walked out? Do the men try to stick with "If it was my wife asking this question then I would...."? Do we not let married women post if their husband's aren't members? Or do we direct ladies to post only in the Ladies Only section? That doesn't seem fair, they might really want to hear what other men have to say. But then you are back to not stepping on her husband's authority and what he might be telling her that she doesn't agree with. It is less complicated for single ladies but restraint and kindness are best used if you disagree with what the single lady is saying. Unfortunately, we tend to have hurt and angry ladies post here which requires all of us to think about how we can post challenges with compassion along with show the love of Christ. Also, I have thought it wonderful that several men have asked ladies to limit what they say in a negative way about their husbands. I think this is a good policy, though it might seem odd to ask them to "watch their tongue", I believe it is the right thing to say.

In my opinion, the men (who are main posters) have to take responsibility for setting the tone for this Forum.

Edit: This is not a dating site but it certainly can lead to meeting a potential at a retreat. What kind of character would you desire her to see in your postings to other ladies?

Agree with your main point! Compassion and respect! Even with @Judgemenot , I try to take a kinder gentler tone and approach when discussing, debating. She's just not rough and tumble like the guys. I'll go full guns in person, on the phone or forum with any of the guts here. They rarely get 'butt-hurt', but its how we roll.

Ladies, in general, are different. I've had a few rare close friends over the years that I could get verbally aggressive with in debate and they didn't mind or even enjoyed, but those arevrare and the foundational relationship has to be much closer than crossing swords with a guy.

Back to what we've all said for a while: compassion and respect. Problem is that can be pretty subjective. Some guys on this board are much more touchy-feely than the rest of us. What one considers compassion us what another calls harsh... so, no firm answer other than equipping the ladies with chainmail and telling the guys to play nice.

 

[Edward]

I do think the men should practice more restraint when a woman posts.

Maybe the men should try and treat the ladies the way they treat their wives. And I do understand there's a lot differences in each home. I think of how I treat my wife after all she is my Queen. I don't yell at her, I don't belittle her, and I don't make her feel like a nobody. I want her to feel special and well-loved. So I try to treat other men's wives the way I treat mine, of course I won't be calling your wife Queen.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I am a little worried that what we are talking about is a nascent "white knighting", establishing an infantilizing protectorate for women that insulates them from truth and reality. I am completely in agreement with @PeteR on authority and the respect thereof but I am completely against giving any class of person immunity for their ideas. Truth is absolute and sacrosanct and if an idea can't stand up to harsh criticism then it can't stand up. Women should be completely respected and protected in their sphere but if they want to come out of that sphere then they need to be able to stand on their own two feet, as @Joleneakamama does so well. @windblown is an incredibly smart, fierce woman. She could stand up to anyone here intellectually and go toe to toe with you in any debate. She has won against me more than once. She doesn't engage on the men's forum because it's not her sphere, not because she's scared of the men. We don't scare her.

In the Marines Corps we trained with women Marines. We derisively referred to them as WMs. They got to wear the Eagle, Globe and Anchor but they never had to meet the standards the men did. They got longer to accomplish runs. They didn't have to do pull ups. They always ended up in some administrative position. When we could on long field operations they would get taken back to the rear to shower and change their clothes while we would stay out for weeks at a time. They would almost never have to do the long "humps" with full weight. They were never in the infantry or combat arms job fields that we called the "tip of the spear", those areas that epitomized the mission of the Corps and carried the greatest risks and the most hardships. Things are almost certainly different in the other branches of the service but in the Corps those WMs got very little respect and were never counted on. There are very few women who can live up to the standard of the Marines but those that could didn't get the respect they deserved because they were lumped in with the gender normed women who didn't belong.

I freely admit that the old testosterone can get a man's fighting spirit up and an argument can get out of hand or have it's focus shift from the philosophe to the philosopher, but that is a firewall that brings a very important protection. Anyone who cares about the truth should rather have their ideas subjected to that gauntlet than not.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I usually try to be careful not to use ad hominem attacks (I’m not always successful, but i try) especially when I’m responding to a lady. However, simply disagreeing with a woman on this forum is often times taken, by her, to be just that.

I can think of at least one occasion where I disagreed with a woman on here and another guy sent me a pm saying that it could be taken as being sort of attacking. While that was not how I meant it, I could see how it might be taken that way, so I immediately and publicly apologized and clarified. The woman didn’t accept the apology, and then went on to write me a pm essentially telling me to stay in my own lane and not to respond to any of her posts on the forum. I was going to respond and reiterate my apologies and try to smooth things over, and then I realized that when she had sent me the pm, she changed the settings so that I could not respond to her. I lost every ounce of respect i had for her and realized that women can be every bit as much of a bully as any man. They just do it in a more subtle way, like playing the “damsel in distress” card and getting other men to carry their water for them.

Forgive me if it feels disingenuous to me for ladies to say the only reason they don’t post much on the forums is out of fear that men will attack them, when they have section of the forum where they can post anything they want without any man being able to say a word, and they rarely post there.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, ad hominem attacks shouldn’t be used against anyone, man or woman, but if your fear is that someone might disagree with you, then you probably shouldn’t post. If nobody is allowed to disagree with you, you are the bully.

 

[PeteR]

@Asforme&myhouse and @ZecAustin , thanks for solid articulate responses. I totally connect with Zec's illustration. A sad, sad day for me was when two women graduated Ranger School under lowered standards thus reducing the value of the Tab for every man who has earned it....

I do very much value the vigorous interaction and iron sharpening on this forum. The key is compassion and respect, but maybe thicker skin, too....

 

[windblown]

I get offended when y'all WON'T argue with me.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I get offended when y'all WON'T argue with me.

I apologize. There have been times that I disagreed with you, but held my tongue because you’re a woman.

 

[Pacman]

I honestly don’t know what in that thread could even be viewed as an attack against Jennifer. Once her husband got involved the discussion got heated but none of that was directed towards her. Disagreement with false doctrine is not a personal attack it’s defending the faith.

 

[HisSilver]

I did the personality test at the site FH2 listed, and it said I am ISFJ as well. Kind of interesting.