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Where are the women?
- Thread starter DeathIsNotTheEnd
- Start date
(Derailed and continuing) I would like to add a comment about the rash vow some have made to "forsake all others." I never made that vow or said anything like that when I took my first wife. She on the other hand vowed to "submit joyfully" to me in everything. In spite of the vows we made, everyone opposed to PM has used the excuse that we made our vows in a monogamous culture so 'forsaking all others' still applies. I'm not joking, that's what I've been told. In this anti-bible environment in which we all live, you're dammed if you did and you're dammed if you didn't so just work through the issues one at a time and never lose sight of God's hand providentialy working all things together for good. And btw, neither I nor my first wife had any understanding of PM when we married so it was God's hand of providential blessing I never made a rash vow then. And for that I've thanked Him many times. (ok, get this thread back on its rails!)
That is a good illustration of a key point: it's not about the vow.
The vow is just a self justification so no amount of logic around it will matter. If the vow accords with what they want, it will be held up. If it is contrary to that, it will be disregarded.
Now if what they want is to follow you, then a monogamy vow is no hurdle. Getting to the point where they joyfully follow you and not their own will; now that is the trick.
Just a quick one: I think ED is being overly 'fair' to his first wife, and as an outside observer I would offer that the way it went down it looked like FW was on board ("I agree this is God's will for us") and trying to get there ("God told me to stay, I need to time to sort this out"), and acknowledging that ED and second wife were supposed to 'be together' and 'married in God's eyes'. Then after the fact, she's decided that none of that matters and she's just [all you ladies know what she's 'just'...] exhausted, frustrated, scared, angry, upset with herself, upset with her husband, upset with God, upset with SW, hurting, broken, confused, and lashing out.
If we were midwives, this would be birth time. If we were firefighters, it's time to roll. If we were ER docs, we have an incoming trauma patient. Weigh your counsel accordingly.
"This is what you did wrong" is for the 20/20 hindsight debriefing we're going to have (or not). What matters now is what to do now.
Props to NurseMo for an eloqnent response (@NurseMo, please say hi to that DH of yours). Not the only well-stated response, but one very much on point for @EternalDreamer's situation. ED's FW could learn a lot from NurseMo, but oh yeah, that's right, she doesn't want to talk with anyone who could actually help her work this out, she only wants to talk with people who will validate her desire to leave....
Do not under-estimate the influence of people outside your family when the you-know-what hits the you-know-where. In fact, in light of the FW's relatively sudden about face, the odds are very high that the main problem here is that someone is in her ear telling her 'she doesn't have to put up with this'. Can't prove it yet, but it's a more likely explanation than anything else given the evidence we have so far.
If we were midwives, this would be birth time. If we were firefighters, it's time to roll. If we were ER docs, we have an incoming trauma patient. Weigh your counsel accordingly.
"This is what you did wrong" is for the 20/20 hindsight debriefing we're going to have (or not). What matters now is what to do now.
Props to NurseMo for an eloqnent response (@NurseMo, please say hi to that DH of yours). Not the only well-stated response, but one very much on point for @EternalDreamer's situation. ED's FW could learn a lot from NurseMo, but oh yeah, that's right, she doesn't want to talk with anyone who could actually help her work this out, she only wants to talk with people who will validate her desire to leave....
Do not under-estimate the influence of people outside your family when the you-know-what hits the you-know-where. In fact, in light of the FW's relatively sudden about face, the odds are very high that the main problem here is that someone is in her ear telling her 'she doesn't have to put up with this'. Can't prove it yet, but it's a more likely explanation than anything else given the evidence we have so far.
@andrew you are too kind. I couldn't have done it without your support and especially your ladies. All of them. And I'd certainly be willing to pay it forward to anyone who needs it. I remember what a blessing your family and @julieb were (and are) to me, even when all I did was argue, blame, justify my feelings/fears, and complain. Thank you all for not giving up on me, even when I was bent on giving up on myself.
@EternalDreamer
@EternalDreamer
that's when I ran. I ran as hard and as fast as I could. But on the inside, I knew that what I was doing was dangerous. I was on dangerous ground. I literally felt that if I stepped to the right or the left, the ground would fall beneath my feet and swallow me up. The decision to officially GO or STAY was dangerous. So I stood still. I didn't make a choice. For 3 whole months. All my crying, all my prayers, tears, anger. Oh how I raged inside (and to others)! Not a word from above. Then one day, I woke up to go to work and had my answer. Go home. No if's, and's, or but's. I was "gone" for a total of 6 months. Was it all sunshine and rainbows after I came back? Absolutely not. Did I try to leave after that....once. Have I "gotten over" my fears, jealousies, insecurities, anger/bitterness and become the perfect wife? Not even close. But you know what? I'm still here. I have a good marriage with an excellent father. My point is, hang in there. This isn't to give false hope. You know your situation more than I, I'm just saying, not all is lost. It may take time, or she may be gone, idk. Whatever it is, there's a whole 'lotta stuff going on inside her. The audacity! the outrage! I was there....I got through it. It's possible.
umm....I said something like that.....rashly
Well, if I was to be back when I was when Samuel and I were engaged, and he brought up poly (seriously... we had joked about it), then I'd totally be out. Because who I was back then, was someone who'd been through a pretty difficult time, and who was just new to the Christian faith. I knew I needed a decent, strong, Christian man leading me, not someone who was going to drag me into PM/cult like stuff, and someone who didn't think that I was enough for him. That's what I would have thought, I would've been gone.
But I'm not that person now. I'm a new person. I'm all for PM. We can't go back to where we were before, we have to be where we are now and move forward from that.
So, why is your wife jumping backwards? Is it because she's right on the edge, and afraid of moving forwards and actually making the jump to PM being good?
There was some discussion in here about vows, and I just wanted to touch on that briefly. Samuel said forsake all others in his vows. He did promise only to be with me only for the rest of our lives. When we started talking about PM I was dead keen on it. YHWH basically told me this was happening so I thought I might as well be all in and find out everything I need to know. But there was a moment about 6 months in, when Samuel asked if I would release him of those vows. Now, whether or not you agree that a woman can actually do that is beside the point, because it was a huge thing for me. I was so keen on PM, yet the idea of actually releasing him of those vows, and not truly having them there as back up, was terrifying! It took me a good minute to respond, and I responded yes. Yes because it was the right thing to do. Yes because I wanted to stand by my word. Yes because I needed to be submissive to him. It was a huge turning point for me, it released something inside of me that I'd been holding onto, and for me it was the ultimate act of submission. So whether or not you agree with vows, a woman truly releasing her husband of them can have a huge affect on her mental ability to be following her husband and involved in PM.
But I'm not that person now. I'm a new person. I'm all for PM. We can't go back to where we were before, we have to be where we are now and move forward from that.
So, why is your wife jumping backwards? Is it because she's right on the edge, and afraid of moving forwards and actually making the jump to PM being good?
There was some discussion in here about vows, and I just wanted to touch on that briefly. Samuel said forsake all others in his vows. He did promise only to be with me only for the rest of our lives. When we started talking about PM I was dead keen on it. YHWH basically told me this was happening so I thought I might as well be all in and find out everything I need to know. But there was a moment about 6 months in, when Samuel asked if I would release him of those vows. Now, whether or not you agree that a woman can actually do that is beside the point, because it was a huge thing for me. I was so keen on PM, yet the idea of actually releasing him of those vows, and not truly having them there as back up, was terrifying! It took me a good minute to respond, and I responded yes. Yes because it was the right thing to do. Yes because I wanted to stand by my word. Yes because I needed to be submissive to him. It was a huge turning point for me, it released something inside of me that I'd been holding onto, and for me it was the ultimate act of submission. So whether or not you agree with vows, a woman truly releasing her husband of them can have a huge affect on her mental ability to be following her husband and involved in PM.
@andrew you are too kind. I couldn't have done it without your support and especially your ladies. All of them. And I'd certainly be willing to pay it forward to anyone who needs it. I remember what a blessing your family and @julieb were (and are) to me, even when all I did was argue, blame, justify my feelings/fears, and complain. Thank you all for not giving up on me, even when I was bent on giving up on myself.
@EternalDreamer
that's when I ran. I ran as hard and as fast as I could. But on the inside, I knew that what I was doing was dangerous. I was on dangerous ground. I literally felt that if I stepped to the right or the left, the ground would fall beneath my feet and swallow me up. The decision to officially GO or STAY was dangerous. So I stood still. I didn't make a choice. For 3 whole months. All my crying, all my prayers, tears, anger. Oh how I raged inside (and to others)! Not a word from above. Then one day, I woke up to go to work and had my answer. Go home. No if's, and's, or but's. I was "gone" for a total of 6 months. Was it all sunshine and rainbows after I came back? Absolutely not. Did I try to leave after that....once. Have I "gotten over" my fears, jealousies, insecurities, anger/bitterness and become the perfect wife? Not even close. But you know what? I'm still here. I have a good marriage with an excellent father. My point is, hang in there. This isn't to give false hope. You know your situation more than I, I'm just saying, not all is lost. It may take time, or she may be gone, idk. Whatever it is, there's a whole 'lotta stuff going on inside her. The audacity! the outrage! I was there....I got through it. It's possible.
umm....I said something like that.....rashly
I wish I could believe that that may happen
She has surrounded herself now with family and friends who are all encouraging her to leave. I tried talking to her again today and was told that she absolutely refuses to discuss the situation or our marriage anymore. And then I was informed that she had already begun drawing up documents with her lawyer
It's scary. Im really scared. Scared of losing her, of course. Scared of losing my son. My life. But I am just dumbfounded by how completely she has not just thrown away everything she's heard from God over the past year, but how dead set on pursuing this destructive choice she has been. She is totally walled off from me, and while I have been taking some steps to try and protect myself, it is still really scary
“For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.”
II Timothy 1:7
Praying for you brother @EternalDreamer !!!
Stand strong in YHWH and after you’ve done all you can do.. STAND STRONG!
II Timothy 1:7
Praying for you brother @EternalDreamer !!!
Stand strong in YHWH and after you’ve done all you can do.. STAND STRONG!
So sorry for everything you're going through @EternalDreamer . I do hope and pray that your wife reconciles with you.
I just had to post after reading this. For what it's worth I went through a similar experience 3 years ago. My advice to you is to do what you have to in order to protect yourself and fight for your son. Ask your second wife to have patience while you are going through a really hard time in your life right now. Your first wife has a choice to stay or go, plain and simple. I'm not saying which one is right, I'm just saying it's her choice. Do the best you can to be strong during this weakened time. I really never thought (probably due to arrogance, who could leave such a wonderful man as myself ) my first wife would leave and take the kids, but she did after about 2 years of living plural. Hindsight... forget about it, we all make mistakes, we can't fix the past, move on from here. Hold tight to your second if she is willing to follow. Get GOOD legal advice to deal with your first wife (man up). That's not saying reconciliation can't happen in future (mine divorced me 3 years ago but I still hope she returns some day with the right heart, however I'm not holding my breath) but right now you need to really protect yourself.
@EternalDreamer The best advice in the world may be wrong for you.
Remember the young prophet who listened to the old prophet instead of what God had told him personally?
I experienced anxiety once approaching the birth of our 8th. I also had fear/worry get a hold of me way early in our marriage when my hubby was late coming home from work and didn't call me. Tree service is dangerous, and my mind imagined worst case scenarios. He came home tired and beat, but fine and uninjured from cleaning up a lot of storm damage. I remember praying then and telling God that I knew He loved my husband more then I did, that I knew (from stories ) that He had protected him many times in his life, and asked Him to please continue to take care of my hubby. I never worried like that again.
With the baby I have no idea what possible other outcome we may have had if we had gotten medical professionals involved....we didn't. We trusted Him and he gave us peace....and a healthy baby. When labor arrived I had no fear, and it was a neat birth. Over 5 weeks late....super short cord....what water?...(hubby asked when did the water break?...there really wasn't much).
Does my story mean others should ignore worries and just trust God for a good outcome? Ummm I don't think so. But I do think they should worry first and most about what He wants them to do. With the baby.....my hubby wasn't worried.
I have seen God work miracles in answer to prayer.....even with heathens! I pray that He will open your wife's eyes to the spirit behind the advice she is being given, and help her heart understand yours. That He will make those trying to break up your family show her their true colors. This can actually be a super good thing for your wife that makes her stronger.....knowlege of good and evil both help us gain wisdom and discernment. (What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.) I pray for all involved that this is a valley of the shadow of death that YHWH walks you all through.....and you are all still family on the other side.
Remember the young prophet who listened to the old prophet instead of what God had told him personally?
I experienced anxiety once approaching the birth of our 8th. I also had fear/worry get a hold of me way early in our marriage when my hubby was late coming home from work and didn't call me. Tree service is dangerous, and my mind imagined worst case scenarios. He came home tired and beat, but fine and uninjured from cleaning up a lot of storm damage. I remember praying then and telling God that I knew He loved my husband more then I did, that I knew (from stories ) that He had protected him many times in his life, and asked Him to please continue to take care of my hubby. I never worried like that again.
With the baby I have no idea what possible other outcome we may have had if we had gotten medical professionals involved....we didn't. We trusted Him and he gave us peace....and a healthy baby. When labor arrived I had no fear, and it was a neat birth. Over 5 weeks late....super short cord....what water?...(hubby asked when did the water break?...there really wasn't much).
Does my story mean others should ignore worries and just trust God for a good outcome? Ummm I don't think so. But I do think they should worry first and most about what He wants them to do. With the baby.....my hubby wasn't worried.
I have seen God work miracles in answer to prayer.....even with heathens! I pray that He will open your wife's eyes to the spirit behind the advice she is being given, and help her heart understand yours. That He will make those trying to break up your family show her their true colors. This can actually be a super good thing for your wife that makes her stronger.....knowlege of good and evil both help us gain wisdom and discernment. (What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.) I pray for all involved that this is a valley of the shadow of death that YHWH walks you all through.....and you are all still family on the other side.
@EternalDreamer very sorry to hear your wife has chosen to "run". Praying the Lord will work mightily in her heart and that you will continue to stand strong in the Lord's purposes for you and your family.
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@Searcher welcome to the forums!
That was an amazing first post!
I love your perspective that sees the benefit in not hindering a husband in doing his job.
I hope you write an introduction, and keep participating here!
Ditto to what @Joleneakamama wrote about an amazing first post, @Searcher. It reminded me that I had failed to include something in my earlier post in this thread: that I myself have on more than one occasion been in somewhat of @EternalDreamer's shoes in his first post, crying out to our Father: "Where are the women, Lord? Do they exist? Or have you written on my heart something you know will not be fulfilled?" I do my best to live in the assurance that everything is God's Will and that everything that does or doesn't occur is all part of a Plan that will consummate (no pun intended) in the complete fulfillment of His Intentions. In moments of despair and/or frustration, though, I've been guilty of unconsciously turning my back on God by pushing the envelope with what I think is best at that juncture, demonstrating more impatience than wisdom.
I loved that, @andrew (wondering, of course, how any one in particular might be able to manage escaping the 20/20 hindsight debriefing!). @EternalDreamer, if I were you (and, believe me, I know I'm not), I would have been highly grateful to read his take/summary on your situation. As I mentioned in an earlier post, @julieb has previously struck gold with insight about how perfection expectations are unfairly placed on polygamous relationships when such standards are rarely applied to monogamous marriages. Flawlessness is simply unavailable in our human tool boxes, and when we look from the outside in we would always do well to acknowledge that we're constricted in our judgment capacities by being limited to whatever slivers of the Whole Story to which we've been privy . . .
. . . and, Andrew hit the nail on the head here. He properly recognizes that we all lack proof, but anyone who pays attention to the human race knows the wisdom of suspecting that someone is in her ear propagandizing to beat the band. And their messages may pay lip service to the Bible, but one can be relatively certain that what they're really doing is elevating the concerns of the world above those of Scripture.
@EternalDreamer, I may be delusional, but I believe my earlier-expressed perspective in support of @steve's post is not incongruent with @andrew's sentiments; one can simultaneously reject judgmentalism while encouraging being tough about analyzing one's approach.
Having said that, what you've written above very much resonated with me. Should any of you forward what I'm about to write to my wife, it may inspire a repeat bout, but I believe this perspective is potentially valuable enough to sufficient numbers of people reading this that I'm willing to compromise on protecting Kristin's pride (or mine):
Recently, I've come to recognize that, through the course of our marriage, especially in the recent years during which I've been verbal about my intention to form a plural family, Kristin has demonstrated a pattern that amounts to two-steps-forward-one-step-back. Actually, it would be more accurate to describe it as one-step-back-two-steps-forward. She knew 32 years ago when she asked me to marry her that I wanted more than one wife. A few years after that, we entered into a relationship with a woman, but when Kristin got pregnant with our first child, she tossed the other woman aside and declared that she wouldn't raise her children in a polygamous environment. I failed miserably by knuckling under, and -- long story short -- spent 15 years in total acquiescence to Kristin's demands in the matter. Needless to say, she was 'good' with that. About a decade ago, though, I began the process of reasserting my leadership. Also needless to say, this didn't go over well. Sound and fury ensued, and I'm not infrequently amazed that our marriage is still standing. But it is.
Here's the pattern that it took me many years to recognize, because it's been so incremental; I hope it can give you some hope and comfort:
Every so often, sometimes inspired by real life events, more often inspired by polluted 'support' for Kristin from others, most often I suspect inspired by internal emotional/hormonal events within Kristin, she goes on the warpath. This has manifested itself in everything from shouting to threats of divorce to pulling out all the stops in regard to demeaning my character and worth as a human being. Feel free to send me a private message if you want a more fleshed-out description of what this has been like, but suffice it to say that, in the early years of this, I would get totally hooked by it, thinking each time that we were on the brink of dissolution. Eventually, though, I met threats of divorce with a combination of asserting in no uncertain terms that that was not what I wanted but that she should just go for it instead of making threats. Paradoxically (?), this seriously decreased the incidence of such threats (in one of the last instances, Kristin declared that she had already set up an appointment with an attorney to draw up divorce papers, so I steeled myself for whatever sh**storm of turmoil, loss and grief was ahead [much like what you're going through now], but 3 days later she came back to me to declare that she couldn't imagine life without me). More and more, as I combined not reacting with becoming more of an assertive leader in my household, the episodes diminished in intensity and/or became less frequent.
What I've come to realize, though, is that each setback (especially when related to the issue of polygamy) is in the end only a prelude to a significant breakthrough. The setbacks are of varying intensities, but if I just stand in what I know is right and patiently wait for her to come around (or come back up out of whatever pit she sent herself down into), Kristin not only apologizes but articulates what she did that was mean, wrong, etc. -- and in addition always from that point forward demonstrates that she's made some kind of perhaps small but always significant advance in her approach to the potential of being in a plural family. It is as if the only way she can move forward is to first retreat back into that "Nobody's going to control me" mindset before she can get herself through the bottleneck of the next breakthrough.
Therefore, @EternalDreamer, I'm praying that something like this is in play with your FW -- that you have in writing that she had the previous breakthrough, that yes now she has seemingly turned her back on that, but that what this may be a prelude for is a breakthrough that will mark an advance from the last one. @andrew is on the mark about how others will get in the ears of doubters and attempt to drown them with world-pleasing propaganda, but that's a nearly ubiquitous dynamic in our culture, and everyone has to struggle with gradually climbing on top of that mountain of manure, so my prayer is that your FW is simply in the midst of wrestling with that struggle.
I pray you will be able to comprehensively prevail while demonstrating your allegiance to your marriage and standing your ground.
@EternalDreamer now is not the time to be timid. I was when my first wife did this. You have to fight. Fight for your son. Do not be ashamed. That's going to be her main weapon. She is going to try to shame you in front of everyone. Don't be ashamed. You've done nothing wrong. Go forth in boldness.
I second that. 100%.
Thank you all
Truly, you do not know who your family is until you go through something like this. I have felt so safe and reassured by the support of everyone here. Thank you
@Slumberfreeze, brother, I am sorry for the words I said. I said them because your post came at the same time as my wife messaged me to say she was leaving. I reiterate that right now, as Andrew said, I need support, not backwards critique, but yeah. I apologize.
Truly, you do not know who your family is until you go through something like this. I have felt so safe and reassured by the support of everyone here. Thank you
@Slumberfreeze, brother, I am sorry for the words I said. I said them because your post came at the same time as my wife messaged me to say she was leaving. I reiterate that right now, as Andrew said, I need support, not backwards critique, but yeah. I apologize.
Im trying. I dont want to be foolish so I am watching my words and communications and taking some practical steps to protect myself, like getting my own bank account and post office box and phone and so on. But I also am not going to back down.
@Keith Martin , yeah I definitely hear you. I hope so. She has never gone this steady or harsh in her 'turning back' before though, and so I am trying to prepare as if she is really going through with it
My prayer is for the same thing. I keep reaching out in love but she wont respond I know her parents and her feminist friend are there pushing this in her ear, but I dont know how to approach her to get her to stop listening to them, since she wont even respond to me
Among the MANY mistakes I made in my divorce was that I constantly was trying to talk to her, convince her she was wrong, that I was right/different/ changed. Everything I said was turned against me and used as a weapon. My church appointed a committee to oversee my restoration and assigned one of my friends to be a direct overseer. All of it was a sham. Her mind had been made up for some time and everything was just a tactic to be used.
I don't know you or your wife but I would suggest ceasing any attempts to contact her or communicate with her. It probably won't do anything but work against you. She knows everything you're going to say. She knows what the implications are. She's thought this through. You can't influence her at all in any direction. You need to start expecting the worst while being willing to be surprised.
My sis in law was once determined to marry some sorry wannabe cowboy after knowing him THREE WEEKS!
Her family tried talking to her....she would not listen. Finally because her sisters had very real concerns they prayed and asked God to "Make him tell her the truth....make him show her who he really is" well, he came out point blank and told her "I don't really love you, and I don't want to marry you" her reaction was "Baby we can work this out" but he was adamant!
Truth be told he had a legal wife he was not with, he liked that she wanted to get married without a license (I've got no strings to hold me down.....) he had never been with a virgin and those were his slimy motivations for proposing. He intended to use her...and move on.
Prayer works....and our Father in heaven has power over the Pharaoh's and feminists too!
That sis in law is married to a hard working family minded believer now....and they have a big family of cute kids.
Get where God gets the glory. Gideon wasn't allowed to use human might.
We battle against motivational wickedness....may God expose it in your situation!