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Where are the women?

EternalDreamer said:
Thanks guys.

I am glad for you.

Going through a hard time with my first wife right now... not sure how it will end up. I cherish my second who is happy in and wants poly, but seeing my first fall apart has jaded me about ever finding someone else.
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Praying for you brother! This is a boat that many are in or have been in! Stand strong and follow The Lord no matter the tantrums!
 
@Slumberfreeze, are you speaking from the perspective of his wife or in your own perspective? Not sure I understand your post. It's probably just me, and the way I read it.
 
EternalDreamer said:
You seem to hold to what I'd consider frankly to be a very feminist-tinged and encultured 'feel good being strict'-focused black-and-white understanding of the Bible and these matters. I find it distressingly similar to what is taught in our corrupt western church and I want nothing to do with it.
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FWIW, I’ve met @Slumberfreeze in person and spent a fair amount of time with him on a few occasions over the last year. Our wives are even closer and correspond/visit fairly often. Because of such, I can assure you that your consideration here is laughable and very far from the truth. IMO, you’re too quick to take offense and thus missing a very valuable point he is making. It’s yours to take or leave, but you’d be worse off for leaving it.
 
@EternalDreamer, we care greatly about you and your whole family.
In fact, families is what Biblical Families is all about. It’s a lot more than just having multiple wives.
When a man asks Where are the women while his family is falling apart, we can see big cracks in the foundation of what his patriarchy should be. We can only go by what we can observe in what you have written, but we have seen some real messes and this has all of the earmarks.
I encourage you to draw from your brothers, as opposed to defending yourself from every slight that you feel.
 
steve said:
When a man asks [I][B]Where are the women [/B][/I]while his family is falling apart, we can see big cracks in the foundation of what his patriarchy should be.
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[USER=2236]

I trust Steve when he takes the time to ADDRESS that which would be easier to gloss over. My experience has been that it is one of the most firm truism about being on the plural family path that it will inspire the true testing of one's ability to be the leader his family needs. I don't know if I'll ever have another wife, but I have no doubt whatsoever that seeking to have one has put me through some version of the Lake of Fire, requiring of me that I confront the many manners in which I have failed as a patriarch. Finding someone else, finding ANYTHING else to blame for why I hadn't been able to find another wife or convince my first wife to join me in that pursuit was always highly tempting, but the bottom line was that I will not be ready until I am to the point of taking 100% responsibility for EVERYTHING that occurs in my family, in my marriage, with my children. In like manner, the pursuit of plural marriage when one has been monogamous cannot help but challenge the foundations of the original partnership. That which has been swept under the rug will come out of hiding. Yes, the culture has brainwashed people (which includes women) to reject polygamy, but railing about how hard it is will not change whatever it is that each of us needs to do in our individual families to batten up the hatches.

Sorry for all the cliches.

Lastly, I want to remind anyone reading of something that Julie B. very eloquently wrote about a year or so ago: it is far too easy to forget when contemplating the difficulties and frequent failures associated with forming plural families that monogamous marriages are light years away from being free of difficulties and failures. The expectation that everything work like a well-oiled machine before we can be willing to grant it legitimacy is unrealistic and unfair. Instead, we should probably look at cracks in the foundation that come about as true blessings that point us in the direction of what we need to do to maximize wonderfulness in the relationships we already have in place.[/user]
 
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Keith Martin said:
[USER=2236]
......... My experience has been that it is one of the most firm truism about being on the plural family path that it will inspire the true testing of one's ability to be the leader his family needs. I don't know if I'll ever have another wife, but I have no doubt whatsoever that seeking to have one has put me through some version of the Lake of Fire, requiring of me that I confront the many manners in which I have failed as a patriarch. Finding someone else, finding ANYTHING else to blame for why I hadn't been able to find another wife or convince my first wife to join me in that pursuit was always highly tempting, but the bottom line was that I will not be ready until I am to the point of taking 100% responsibility for EVERYTHING that occurs in my family, in my marriage, with my children. In like manner, the pursuit of plural marriage when one has been monogamous cannot help but challenge the foundations of the original partnership. That which has been swept under the rug will come out of hiding. Yes, the culture has brainwashed people (which includes women) to reject polygamy, but railing about how hard it is will not change whatever it is that each of us needs to do in our individual families to batten up the hatches.

Sorry for all the cliches.

Lastly, I want to remind anyone reading of something that Julie B. very eloquently wrote about a year or so ago: it is far too easy to forget when contemplating the difficulties and frequent failures associated with forming plural families that monogamous marriages are light years away from being free of difficulties and failures. The expectation that everything work like a well-oiled machine before we can be willing to grant it legitimacy is unrealistic and unfair. Instead, we should probably look at cracks in the foundation that come about as true blessings that point us in the direction of what we need to do to maximize wonderfulness in the relationships we already have in place.[/user]
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Pure awesomeness, brother.
 
EternalDreamer said:
Now here we are right back to the beginning :(
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If that is where you are then that is where you are. So get to work.

The bottom line is that you never quit. You have to continue to priortize and show your wife that you love her and that you are in it until the end of time. Talking about finding other women when your wife is still struggling with the way you handled your vow and your second wife is a mistake. Be a good steward of what God has already blessed you with and work on creating peace and harmony in your home.

Why is your first wife upset? What are her concerns? What is she really afraid of? How are you going to make those things ok, and how are you going to communicate that to her in a way that she will understand? Can you do it with patience and love?

The best way to become a polygamist is not to lose your first wife when you take a second wife.

EternalDreamer said:
And lastly, for the record, it really doesnt matter, even according to my first wife, because the reality is my second and I ARE married now in every way. So, lets stop discussing this and move on.
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I do not think anyone is advising you to leave your second wife either. But imagining that there is no connection between the two relationships is probably a mistake.

I imagine it may be difficult and even painful to read, but I think you are getting some good advice here.
 
cnystrom said:
If that is where you are then that is where you are. So get to work.

The bottom line is that you never quit. You have to continue to priortize and show your wife that you love her and that you are in it until the end of time. Talking about finding other women when your wife is still struggling with the way you handled your vow and your second wife is a mistake. Be a good steward of what God has already blessed you with and work on creating peace and harmony in your home.

Why is your first wife upset? What are her concerns? What is she really afraid of? How are you going to make those things ok, and how are you going to communicate that to her in a way that she will understand? Can you do it with patience and love?

The best way to become a polygamist is not to lose your first wife when you take a second wife.



I do not think anyone is advising you to leave your second wife either. But imagining that there is no connection between the two relationships is probably a mistake.

I imagine it may be difficult and even painful to read, but I think you are getting some good advice here.
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Gold
 
I have been away for a while due to being very busy but here are my 2 cents. I am going to give you a woman's point of view and please do not think that this is an attack on you. We as women tend to hold on to every word, action etc... We, for many years can throw it in our husband's faces every offense, action that has hurt us. I can admit that I have done that, sad to say, with my own husband. Does it gain anything? No. But it helps us to feel better when we remember that offense and we can use it to try over and over to gain the upper hand when needed. You gave an oath to your wife and she has grounded herself in that oath. Now she feels disrespected, hurt, and I am sure deep down, some hate for you that you broke that oath to her. You can quote bible verses plenty of times to her to open her eyes but she will not do it. You cannot not and I repeat cannot make her change her mind when her mind is truly made it when the anger and mistrust are present. My husband and I did NOT start looking for a second wife until he knew I was on board. Yes, there are men that jump the gun and get one anyway and you are the example of this. Again, I am not speaking against you. Your first wife is suffering and if I were you, I would be on my hands and knees praying for your first wife that God opens her eyes and remove all the anger and hurt that she has towards you and ultimately forgives you. I will pray for you that everything will eventually turn out.
 
And I forgot to add that this. You have to ask yourself this question. If you feel that you and your first wife were God ordained and you feel that it was God who placed it on your heart to get another wife, is it God's will for your first wife to leave? Think about that one. I would say no but it would take a lot of prayer and humbling on your part.
 
EternalDreamer said:
ARE there any women out there who genuinely want polygyny? Who do well in an want that lifestyle and will be a good wife for a man with multiple wives?
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My inner cynic says "No" to the first part of the question and a resounding "YES" to the 2nd part, although it takes time. I'm so very sorry regarding your current situation. I remember being in your first wife's shoes. It's hard to go against every cell in your body/psyche that's screaming NO and listen to and obey the still small "yes." I initially angrily and bitterly obeyed and eventually decided to shut my mouth and see what would happen. I was so terrified and angry at Yehovah for 1. what was currently happening, and 2. that I was being asked to obey THIS?!? What the....????

EternalDreamer said:
Bible indicates it is ultimately a matter between God and the person, not the 2 people
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Agreed! I too had the vow issue. I solved it by remembering MY VOW to MY HUSBAND to MY GOD. So, when push came to shove, I ultimately had to say within myself, "He will have to account for his vow. I must account for mine." Which, sometimes, that was the only thing that kept me there, but it kept me obedient. Because honestly, when I said my vows even if rash, ignorant, monogamy believing, whatever, my vow to Yehovah wasn't contingent on my husband's vows. "To have and to hold, love and to cherish, in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, for better or for worse, forsaking all others, for as long as we both shall live" didn't have any clause regarding him and his vows or any clause on how to get out of it. Assuming ya'll said the same type of stuff I said, she promised herself to you. Until death. Period. I just can't see it another way. (per my personal conviction regarding vows). She's accountable for her vows. You're accountable for yours.

To quote other member's comments: "You gave an oath to your wife and she has grounded herself in that oath" and "repenting of your rash vow" will sound a lot like oath breaking to the beneficiary of that vow" is quite literally how I felt, regardless of my vow being to my husband AND my LORD. Per my conviction, I feel as if husbands get around the whole "Forsaking all others" vow by way of Leviticus 5:4 (and their convictions regarding the passage) but it's clear that it is a sin to break your vows, but still can be forgiven and the "guilty" party not banished to hell. ;) I have yet to be convinced that it applies to women, based on my understanding of Numbers 30: 1-16. However, it is very very clear that Leviticus 5:4 was not a license to vow break due to the overwhelming passages to do the contrary. I advise extreme caution and prayer when using this passage to justify vow breaking. I feel @EternalDreamer you approached this in a very respectful, careful, and thoughtful way based on your convictions and situation. I hope she can see that.

Let Yehovah be the ultimate judge because He was the one who was vowed to. Anyhow, idk if this helps, but that's just my story of how I dealt with the whole Vow issue.

In all honesty, she's probably too emotional/hurt to think this rationally. She wants out. Just like I did. But she has a choice, to be obedient, nor not. Just like I did. He blundered, and he did it badly, but you want to know what he did? He stayed steadfast to his commitment to me. He stayed steadfast to his commitment to her. He let us both know he wanted both of us without making me feel bad. He did his best to avoid "favorites." He weathered the storms of my emotional outbursts and kept the same message: "I love you. I want you. No one can replace you. You are the wife of my youth. There will never be anyone who can fulfill in me what you do. Please stay." Regardless of my attitude. It's easy to vent to new wife or go to the one least troublesome, it's just as easy to focus on the "troubled one" and neglect the other. Do your best to balance. And the rest was up to 1st wife and Yehovah. This is an emotional problem. You're right back where you started because of emotions. She's terrified, angry, broken. Be patient, be steadfast. Walk with her through it and pray. There's nothing else you can do and the rest is not up to you.
 
This is my first time to post. I have read the entire thread and decided to post rather than rant and rave about specific postings to my husband who sits by chuckling at my frustrations. Our family has/is still fighting a very like situation. I would like to give you a second wife's perspective.

We women would do good to always remember exactly how marriage works, whether mono or poly. In a Godly Kingdom marriage, our husbands are king of our home. I don't remember any of our patriarch fathers asking their first wives permission to take number 2 or 3 or whatever. That is because those women had a different perspective than what we modern women seem to hold. Somehow, we tend to think we own our husbands to some degree. And when multiple wives come into the equation, we see it as slicing up the pie, and our piece is getting smaller and smaller. This simply just not the case... or rather, is not the way we should be looking at it. Nowhere in MY vows have I seen the words: "I now own you."

I agree with our brother Eternal Dreamer that each and every commitment is separate and should be able to stand alone. I personally like the idea of my husband being a king. A king is one who will give his life if needed for his subjects. A dictator will sacrifice his subjects for his own gain. I have a king. Never, never would I assume to try to dictate his decisions, knowing and trusting his decisions are always weighed carefully as to what is the best for us all. I have free will. I sometimes have exercised that free will. I have the free will to leave this union if I choose. But knowing I am loved and cared for and knowing I am in God's will helps me with that choice. I agree with NurseMo in that your best course of action is to love and reassure to the best of your ability. Then, the rest is in God's hands. But yes, there is a least one of us... and I am sure there are many more... that is trying to be a good 'plural' wife.
 
(Derailed and continuing) I would like to add a comment about the rash vow some have made to "forsake all others." I never made that vow or said anything like that when I took my first wife. She on the other hand vowed to "submit joyfully" to me in everything. In spite of the vows we made, everyone opposed to PM has used the excuse that we made our vows in a monogamous culture so 'forsaking all others' still applies. I'm not joking, that's what I've been told. In this anti-bible environment in which we all live, you're dammed if you did and you're dammed if you didn't so just work through the issues one at a time and never lose sight of God's hand providentialy working all things together for good. And btw, neither I nor my first wife had any understanding of PM when we married so it was God's hand of providential blessing I never made a rash vow then. And for that I've thanked Him many times. (ok, get this thread back on its rails! :D)
 
Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

A "Rash Vow," or a foolish vow, would be one that was made when one should know better... in spite of the facts available that would warrant otherwise. It would not be the same situation as a vow made in Ignorance! ...where the necessary information is absent.

Judges 11: 30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, 31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

When Jephthah made this vow, he might should have thought about it more. He could have considered the possibilities, but didn't. He had enough information to realize that it might not be a dog or a pet lamb that would greet him first.

When most of us vowed "forsaking all others" we did it in good faith based upon the best information and understanding we had at the time. When we come to this greater understanding what do we do then?

As we come to greater revelation and understanding in life, we are obligated to correct errors as we discover them.
There might seem to an exception in the case of the Gibeonites, however. Their error was that they did NOT "enquire of the Lord." Technically, they were NOT making a vow based on ignorance. (They failed to follow proper procedure) Therefore, there was still some consequence to the Gibeonites. Joshua chapter 9 ​

Example: Your teenager askes to go to a friend's house for a birthday party tomorrow night. You tell them they can go. Later, you discover the parents are going to be out of town that evening and there is going to drinking, drugs, and even prostitutes there. Would you not justify any parent to "go back on their word" in such a case?

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

So, it seems not all vows are permanently binding. Ones made in true ignorance or in sin even, can be revoked.
 
@NurseMo thank you for sharing your story! That was beautiful.

I have seen human nature at work. If someone is determined to go a particular way they rarely care about right and wrong.

To answer the question. In the original post. There are women well suited to polygyny, some are single, some are married.
The problem in our modern culture is most have been conditioned to reject the idea, or feel they are losing something rather then gaining.
If women try to be the only wife and mom while living a rural life many will decide they need help, but let there be enough money and they will hire a maid, or hire a nanny.
It is a rare individual that thinks about someone else.
My hubby's nieces tried for a long time to convince me I just wanted a nanny.

Some of these would rather stay single....or like those nieces today, get with some average dude for some benefits of marriage without commitment, then ever be part of a larger team.

So yes, there are some women that want that life.....but most would not even 2ant to admit their need, or consider it.
 
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