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Violating Her Conscience
- Thread starter DaPastor
- Start date
Actually, you can have it both ways. If a loving husband is a good spiritual leader then he can guide his wife to a place of willingness and acceptance. Love not force should be a process. Yes a husband needs to be kind and loving and thoughtful. But a devious wife could very well use the "love not force" policy to make it so that a man is never allowed to have a second wife. This makes the woman the head of the man and that is unscriptural. So love not force needs to be a process of leadership where the husband uses God's authority to bring his wife to a thorough understanding. I don't believe that Abraham asked his wife's permission before taking their son to be a living sacrifice before God. I am certain that she would have objected wholeheartedly.
SweetLissa
SweetLissa
I have read the Gospels and find that Christ grieved his disciples on a regular basis. I think the distinction is between when a wife is grieved at something her husband is doing that is truly wrong and she is grieved because she doesn't want him to do what he is doing.
A woman has the responsibility to follow her husband. If where he goes "grieves" you then you have the responsibility to get to a place where you can follow him. God never said it would be easy. He only said it would be worth it.
SweetLissa
A woman has the responsibility to follow her husband. If where he goes "grieves" you then you have the responsibility to get to a place where you can follow him. God never said it would be easy. He only said it would be worth it.
SweetLissa
Nikismom
Member
sweetlissa said:
I think in these types of situations if the wife is truly listening to her husband and God then she WILL see the truth. The issue is acceptance. I have always believed that God doesn't just call one person in a couple to something. Whether it be ministry or plural marriage, He reveals to each spouse His plan, path and will. It is up to each person to follow his will in obedience.
Now if a wife is unwilling to be obedient, learn, pray, seek truth.. that is something she will ultimately have to answer to God for. Unfortunately it makes for a difficult home life when she is unwilling to see the truth.
If you are trying to live according to God's will as the husband and your wife cannot accept PM or refuses to, you have some choices...
you can pray and ask God if this is a command that He is setting down in your life... ( You HAVE to have more than one wife) ,,,or is this about you KNOWING a biblical truth?
If it's the latter why disrupt a happy marriage?
However if it is the first then Pray for God's guidance on how to be loving enough to you wife that she can be accepting... and yes it can take time. I'm sure for an older woman who has been married for many years and is used to having her husband all to herself it must be very hard to see him spending time with another/other women.
Patients and understanding are a very necessary thing. I do understand that there could be time restraints.. However you mentioned that you were "new" to the whole PM "thing". So since this is new to you AND your wife... maybe time is really what you need! IMHO
I agree with donnag, it seems that force has to be applied otherwise the woman is assumed to be devious if, after constant prodding she is still anti.
It seems to me that this is a useful way to put the onus on women to step into line rather than the onus being on men to love their wives and not try to force them into accepting what YOU want above all else?
I have asked this before and it was ignored but....who says that you have the right to seek additional wives anyway? As Nikismom says, do you 'have to have' another wife or is it just something you want? Since when was it obligatory> It is different if you encounter someone whom you know you can love as a wife and she has feelings for you too, but this idea that you HAVE to have another wife is ludicrous, it is this culture of seeking, this culture of desire of a lifestyle to the point where your life doesn't seem complete any more until you get your hearts desire of yet another wife that I feel is one of the reasons why this is so wrong, why so many men are looking for a way to persuade their recalcitrant wives and the reason why so many of the relationships go belly up, it is because everything is focused towards this end goal of acquiring another wife, it becomes a fetish rather than a continual process of fellowship, friendship and building community.
B
It seems to me that this is a useful way to put the onus on women to step into line rather than the onus being on men to love their wives and not try to force them into accepting what YOU want above all else?
I have asked this before and it was ignored but....who says that you have the right to seek additional wives anyway? As Nikismom says, do you 'have to have' another wife or is it just something you want? Since when was it obligatory> It is different if you encounter someone whom you know you can love as a wife and she has feelings for you too, but this idea that you HAVE to have another wife is ludicrous, it is this culture of seeking, this culture of desire of a lifestyle to the point where your life doesn't seem complete any more until you get your hearts desire of yet another wife that I feel is one of the reasons why this is so wrong, why so many men are looking for a way to persuade their recalcitrant wives and the reason why so many of the relationships go belly up, it is because everything is focused towards this end goal of acquiring another wife, it becomes a fetish rather than a continual process of fellowship, friendship and building community.
B
This is what God has been laying on my heart. As others have said elsewhere on BF, unwed mothers and their children are the widows and orphans in 21st century America.
Based on things she has said, and what she has been teaching in the Navajo-language Bible class she teaches, I believe God is laying it on my wife's heart, too. But she does not accept PM as a way to minister to widows and orphans - because she does not accept PM as being Biblical, and it is counter to the culture she was raised in.
And it is almost uncanny how some of you have described what I am going through! Regarding studying what the Bible teaches about PM, my wife "doesn't have time to study that," "too much time required to study for the Navajo-language Bible class she teaches to allow for any other study," "it's low in her priority list," etc. That second one (about the Navajo-language Bible class she teaches) is the only argument she has used that even comes close to being a valid argument. (IMHO...)
And yes, there are ways to minister to the widows and orphans that are way short of PM. I'm trying to steer us in that direction.
PolyDoc said:
REALLY!!?
When the author of James pointed out a need-situation, he seemed pretty clear that we were to meet that need. Specifically.
When someone comes to your door cold and hungry, you're supposed to give them a coat and food. NOT a bible study, followed by a sonorous blessing, and a holy "Go in peace, be warm, fed, dry, and cared for, brother!" Not that the latter are wrong, but they are no substitute for meeting the point of need.
So when he said that pure religion was to visit the husbandless and fatherless in their need, just what do we think he had in mind? Give her a time out by taking the kids to a ball-game? Teaching her to look to Jesus to meet her needs? A box of groceries and a fishing pole for the kids?
The problem is that they are without an all-the-time, rest-of-their-life husband and father in the home.
With all the courtesy and care possible for Bels and donnag, this seems pretty clear to me. It isn't a statement directed at women, as regards their duty. It is directed at the men, specifically, and is our job (read the preceding verses). It would HELP if our wives would encourage us in the execution of our duty. But they don't get to eliminate it via sarcasm or obstruction. Sorry. All that those things accomplish is to isolate and separate themselves which, however sadly, is their right.
And that IS following the pattern of God's dealing with us. If we refuse to be part of His current working, He doesn't reject us and cast us out into outer darkness. But He does keep right on going with what He is doing regardless. It is not given to us to control Him in anything other than the one-to-one relationship between Himself and ourselves. Pisses lots of Christians off, too. And they hurl insults at the new non-conforming members of His body who didn't pass their inspection or obtain their approval on the way in!
Same thing in the family. Blunt as it may be, and as unhappy as it may make her, the wife isn't the hubby. He is.
There are lots of duties laid out for folks in Scripture. Some seem directed towards some, others towards others. I'm certainly unprepared to sit in judgment upon someone who sees their duty differently than I do.
However, neither am I prepared to accept someone else disparaging what I see. So, to answer your question for me, specifically, Yes. Let me be clear. I can remain a monogamist in thought and practice and I believe that God will save me anyway. It isn't a salvation issue, Christ did that.
But it IS an issue of my obedience to His calling on my life. It is what He has placed in front of me, drawn my attention to, and asked me to be involved in. He didn't ask my wife's permission. Didn't even really ask mine. Just said, "This is pure religion before me. I get involved in this. (See Psalms 68:5,6) Please be part of the family business."
To me, that's powerful stuff. His wish is my command. Though I still struggle with the execution. And wifely opposition doesn't help, but that would be her choice, as fidelity to my leader's wishes is mine.
However, neither am I prepared to accept someone else disparaging what I see. So, to answer your question for me, specifically, Yes. Let me be clear. I can remain a monogamist in thought and practice and I believe that God will save me anyway. It isn't a salvation issue, Christ did that.
But it IS an issue of my obedience to His calling on my life. It is what He has placed in front of me, drawn my attention to, and asked me to be involved in. He didn't ask my wife's permission. Didn't even really ask mine. Just said, "This is pure religion before me. I get involved in this. (See Psalms 68:5,6) Please be part of the family business."
To me, that's powerful stuff. His wish is my command. Though I still struggle with the execution. And wifely opposition doesn't help, but that would be her choice, as fidelity to my leader's wishes is mine.
One more comment on whether it is compulsory or not. ...
There are clearly other men who are so constituted that God is UN-likely to lay this requirement upon them.
My two younger brothers are cases in point. When I told them what I was questioning and finding way back when, they had identical responses, "Why would you wanna do THAT!!!?" Same parents, same genes (presumably), totally different response.
I assume, therefore, that God has not and is unlikely to lay this specific concern on their hearts. Fair enough. But it IS on mine. And to the charge that it's just because guys get their hormones in a twist ... I've been a diabetic for about 13 years. Do some figuring.
So, well, ... you're talking to men in THIS group. Not to my brothers. If you were, and asked them if it was compulsory, they'd undoubtedly look aghast and say, "Not only No, but ..." If, however, you ask us men on this site, we may wanna sugar coat it and not offend you, but deep within our hearts there is PROBABLY something saying, "Maybe not for everyone, but it is for me."
There are clearly other men who are so constituted that God is UN-likely to lay this requirement upon them.
My two younger brothers are cases in point. When I told them what I was questioning and finding way back when, they had identical responses, "Why would you wanna do THAT!!!?" Same parents, same genes (presumably), totally different response.
I assume, therefore, that God has not and is unlikely to lay this specific concern on their hearts. Fair enough. But it IS on mine. And to the charge that it's just because guys get their hormones in a twist ... I've been a diabetic for about 13 years. Do some figuring.
So, well, ... you're talking to men in THIS group. Not to my brothers. If you were, and asked them if it was compulsory, they'd undoubtedly look aghast and say, "Not only No, but ..." If, however, you ask us men on this site, we may wanna sugar coat it and not offend you, but deep within our hearts there is PROBABLY something saying, "Maybe not for everyone, but it is for me."
CecilW, I love the way you say things sometimes! You said it much better than I ever could.
I'm trying to find that balance between doing what God has called me to do and not losing the wife He already gave me. It's sometimes painful...but at some point, whether or not my wife agrees with me, I will have to do what God called me to do.
Jesus gave His disciples three years, and they still didn't "get it" until His Resurrection - and some, not until Pentecost. Would He expect me to give my wife any less?
A
Anonymous
Guest
This is a good question and for me it is a vital one. Is it a happy marriage for both the husband and the first wife?
If my wife is trying to control the leadership of our family, by giving me ultimatums, threatening me for my possible actions and telling me what God's will for our family is, then it is not a happy family.
I for one, speaking only for myself can not renege on my responsibility as the husband and father in our family (patriarch). In our 43 years together it has never been my practice to force my wife to believe or do something. Her unwilling participation is extremely distasteful as well as odious to me. On the other hand, her trust and loyalty to me is a wonderful gift.
When we come to a conflict in something that is clear to me of God's leading, her reticence may well be a lack of understanding, or fear. But when she has the knowledge and understands the truth and still refuses to come with me or tries to coerce me, THEN it is disloyalty and rebellion. Neither of us can be happy, then. If I capitulate she may be happy for a time, but I have been disobedient to my Lord and unfaithful to my wife. The only way for us to be happy is for her to honestly surrender to God's leadership through me, which is God's calling on a wife's life.
Isabella said:
"Love not Force" was coined by someone in the Christian polygyny movement, and although it has a great deal of merit, it also has a fundamental flaw. At what point is a wife usurping her husband's authority by resisting his desire to add another wife? God established quite clearly that the man is the head of the home. The head of the home is given the responsibility to lead, which implies, establishing the vision for the home.
I have already shared that if a wife does not believe in polygyny, a husband may find that his wife thinks that her husband is practicing sexual immorality which may violate her conscience, so that husband should be aware of the possible consequences of acting too quickly.
However, if a wife already knows that Scripture allows for her husband to practice polygyny, she should not resist his desires. This is rebellion.
Does this mean that a husband should force his agenda upon his wife? God forbid! What it means is that men were created to make the final decision of the household. Although he should be patient, loving, and kind, while teaching her the truth of polygyny, he cannot allow the wife to usurp his authority. This is a major problem in the Church of America. Too many men have allowed their wives to be the leaders of the home. This problem isn't merely seen with the idea of polygyny, it is also seen in other areas of decision making for the home. I have seen wives fight with their husbands over career changes, becoming a pastor, and going to the mission field. Allow me to show you a scenario that has as many ramifications as polygyny does on a family, but is totally unrelated to plural marriage:
Scene: A seasoned pastor is called to be a long term missionary to some remote village in the heart of Africa. This example is used because there are no specific commands for every man to go to some remote village to preach the gospel. This makes it quite equivalent to polygyny, for neither are specifically commanded, yet, the Holy Spirit may lead a man in either direction sovereignly.
After a season of prayer and fasting, counsel by fellow pastors, and more than a few confirmations from the Holy Spirit, a pastor decides that God is clearly calling him to be a missionary to some remote tribe to preach ths gospel. He begins to share the idea with his wife. His wife listens but is not feeling to comfortable with his plan. However, he continues to share with his wife his general passages that encourage going into all the world to preach the gospel. He shares his confirmations. He shares his counsel. However, the more she hears, the more she doesn't like the idea. She starts thinking about not having her own kitchen, a nice home, running water, her children, etc... What will her family think? What will her friends think? Will they all not say that she would be crazy to uproot the family this way? She comes to the conclusion that "this may be for some, but it is not for us!" Meanwhile, the husband is doing his best to be patient, loving, and kind, but he knows the direction that he should be going. She continues to resist. Should the husband allow her to continue to usurp his authority?
Love not force would imply that the husband should do what the wife wants. When Peter rejected the direction Jesus was planning on going, did Jesus back down and say, "My love for you tells me I should not force my direction upon you?" Absolutely not!
Cecil W, thank you for your response re: whether Polygamy is obligatory.
DaPastor, thanks for your response re: Love not force, personally I think your explanation leaves too much leeway for the 'force' aspect but as it does not pertain to me I suppose it would have to be something Christian women will or will not take umbrage with.
B
DaPastor, thanks for your response re: Love not force, personally I think your explanation leaves too much leeway for the 'force' aspect but as it does not pertain to me I suppose it would have to be something Christian women will or will not take umbrage with.
B
A
Anonymous
Guest
DaPastor said:
This is exactly why I can't accept the "Love Not Force" concept. All "LNF" does is switch who gets to use force. I'm all for husbands loving their wives but my Bible says that wives are to submit to their husbands...not the other way around. I believe there is a big difference between a wife who hasn't yet fully understood Biblical Marriage and a wife who simply refuses to accept it. A husband should be loving & patient in any event but I don't believe he has to cave in to her manipulation as some sort of sign that he loves her.
Blessings,
Fairlight
http://bible.org/seriespage/how-hate-yo ... ke-1425-35
Thought provoking article that bears on the topic at hand.
Thought provoking article that bears on the topic at hand.
I think Pastor John's point about the issue is one of does the woman have a legitimate fear or misunderstanding.
That requires a different response than the one who knows the truth, sees the truth, and yet still rebels against the truth. The first requires more patience. The second requires a different response.
But, back to my point, and singing the same tune again or maybe my cd player is stuck, but I find that it is always a great aid to a lady to find other women that she can become friends with and bond with.
A lot of women when they begin to bond with a lady or several ladies who believe in polygyny it helps to build a bridge for them to move from an anti-position to more of a pro or willingness position. It can go a long ways.
That requires a different response than the one who knows the truth, sees the truth, and yet still rebels against the truth. The first requires more patience. The second requires a different response.
But, back to my point, and singing the same tune again or maybe my cd player is stuck, but I find that it is always a great aid to a lady to find other women that she can become friends with and bond with.
A lot of women when they begin to bond with a lady or several ladies who believe in polygyny it helps to build a bridge for them to move from an anti-position to more of a pro or willingness position. It can go a long ways.
So, who gets to decide when the time of 'prodding and unfruitful teaching' has been enough time? I know that my husband and I have in the past couple of years come to a better understanding on lots of things that caused us much 'paw gnawing' for 20 years or more. Glad he didn't just say 'It's my way or the highway' or 'you're either with me or against me'. That would have sucked- for both of us and our kids.