From my experiences in South East Asia, Europe, and the USA there are more women than men. There may well be differences in the ratio in other places but that's not my experience anywhere I've travelled.
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Thoughts on Deuteronomy 17:16-17 as pertains David and Solomon
- Thread starter Bartato
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It could be that everything that wasn't in what looks to us like the original plan was still all part of His Original Plan.
But stipulating that how things were at first doesn't dictate what Yah ultimately condoned or promoted has a stark example: it's entirely arbitrary to put on our tunnel-vision blinders to focus on the moment when Adam and Eve were the only two people. What about before that? Originally, Adam (the human being) was an hermaphrodite. If we get sucked into the logic of Adam and Eve setting the only appropriate example for marriage being monogamy, then by that logic we'd have to assume that the only ideal human being is an hermaphrodite, which would consign the vast majority of us to never being able to attain Yah's ideal.
This too is very important to understand.
I seem to remember it being more East European, Byzantium (Orthodox), and African. I'll have to find the data, but I could be wrong.
The stats I saw for America showed that the only church with a surplus of men is the Orthodox. I'm not sure why.
Except no where in the scriptures does God ever actually say that. And the logic to imply that from Adam and Eve proves too much (as in it would also dictate nudism and who knows what all else).
But people do like to read their own beliefs into the scriptures.
Except no where in the scriptures does God ever actually say that. And the logic to imply that from Adam and Eve proves too much (as in it would also dictate nudism and who knows what all else).
But people do like to read their own beliefs into the scriptures.
And that's why he is having such difficulty proving his initial point. But I do remind myself, it was not too many years ago I believed that, so people can and do learn the truth. Shalom
I have for a considerable amount of time felt the Orthodox church simply has a more masculine vibe than much of the rest of Christianity. They have a depth of tradition that just seems solid (whether or not it is theologically correct, it gives a feeling of solidity). They don't emasculate their priesthood by forcing them to be celibate and therefore encouraging homosexuality among them, they have real men as priests. I think that when men are looking for a manly structure to their faith, a certain number will be attracted to the Orthodox church in order to find it. I have read multiple accounts of men who have found meaning for their lives in the Orthodox faith. It does not surprise me that the Orthodox would be the one denomination with a surplus of men.
Note that I have had no first-hand involvement with the Orthodox church ever. This is simply the "vibe" I have perceived over the past decade from a myriad of tiny sources.
There is probably an element of political propaganda to this also. Russia deliberately projects a "manly" vibe in the media (in order to portray the West as a pack of feminised sissies), and the Orthodox church is associated with Russia, so to some degree this propaganda will deliberately aim to portray Orthodoxy as manly in some subconscious fashion.
Actually, your pastor friend is quite wrong on this point. I recently read and saved a short paper by @tom_shipley that directly and nicely addresses this fallacy. A salient quote that he uses from St. Augustine...
2) Secondly, but equally important, the moral and ethical validity of polygyny, multiple wives, is derived immediately and directly from the creation narrative in Genesis. In establishing patriarchy, the headship of the man, the moral and ethical validity of polygyny is thereby also established. Consider what St. Augustine had to say about this:
“For by a secret law of nature, things that stand chief love to be singular; but things that are subject are set under, not only one under one, but…even several under one…For neither has one slave…several masters, in the way that several slaves have one master. Thus we read not that any of the holy women served two or more living husbands; but we read that many females served one husband…for neither is it contrary to the nature of marriage. For several females can conceive from one man: but one female cannot from several men (such is the power of things principal) as many souls are rightly made subject to one God.” —from “A Selected Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church,” Ed. by Philip Schaff, Vol. III, pg. 407-408
All hierarchical structures have this one vs. many characteristic. In a corporation, there is one CEO but many subordinates, and all of the sub-departments of the corporation have the same structure.
The entire short paper is available at the above link, but this quote is the dagger to 'polygyny was never God's plan from the beginning.'“For by a secret law of nature, things that stand chief love to be singular; but things that are subject are set under, not only one under one, but…even several under one…For neither has one slave…several masters, in the way that several slaves have one master. Thus we read not that any of the holy women served two or more living husbands; but we read that many females served one husband…for neither is it contrary to the nature of marriage. For several females can conceive from one man: but one female cannot from several men (such is the power of things principal) as many souls are rightly made subject to one God.” —from “A Selected Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church,” Ed. by Philip Schaff, Vol. III, pg. 407-408
All hierarchical structures have this one vs. many characteristic. In a corporation, there is one CEO but many subordinates, and all of the sub-departments of the corporation have the same structure.
Golden.
I agree.
The Orthodox I have known have a sincere passion and purpose as they practice.
In much a way that Mormonism has developed a mostly unified culture distinct from the dominant culture, the Orthodox seem to have this collective ethos that doesn't ascribe to the Augustinian concept of two kingdoms. The entire family and culture structure exudes a strong dedication to the faith. For the ones I've known, to deny their faith is like trying to deny their humanness.
I say it is definitely the manly option if you want the more traditional approach to worship.
Since it is family and culturally linked, there will likely be more males present. Again , no stats yet, but I'll find time soon.
Edit: I've only known Coptics and Armenian Orthodox. Not sure about those Ruskies.
I've not had any personal dealings with Russian Orthodox men, only Russian Evangelicals so I won't comment. However, the Russian Evangelicals I've got to know seem to be more patriarchal than the American Evangelical Christian men I've dealt with. I wonder if it's a little more of a cultural thing than religious? Has feminism had more influence in the USA?
I believe we have surpassed even European feminist culture. .. we just may be the harlot of Rev exporting our debaseness to the world.
That's a possibility. America has successfully exported the Mormon and Jehovah's Witness religions, and fast foods like KFC and McDonald's to the big wide world. How much worse debased can ya'all go in ya' exporting?
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How much worse debased can ya'all go in ya' exporting?
Not to mention purposefully blockading Japan's harbors to induce starvation and retaliation when Roosevelt couldn't convince the American people to get worked up about going to war with the Japanese.
Oh, I wasn't really being serious enough to actually start talking about facts. I just read what @frederick said and started laughing completely inappropriately. My sense of humour is atrociously offensive, that's all.
Oh, I laughed when I saw the mushroom cloud, too, because it really is a good answer to how much more debased we could go . . .
Although it makes me laugh, each time I look at that mushroom cloud I think of the enormous influence the USA has had globally - and particularly religiously. So much good and bad theology has come out of the USA; it's like the biggest extremes, yet I'm super thankful to the American men God brought me into contact with when He saved me. It's just such a shame all of those same men are pushing the monogamy-only barrow. What an incredible difference there would be if there wasn't so much bad teaching around marriage and family from the guys who have otherwise good theology. Oh well.... .