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Supply and Demand

Dr. K.R. Allen said:
Courage yes but more so than that, courage along with wisdom and maturity.

Much of the issues people see and hear about where unions split is because of either unbelief on one or both partners or because of severe immaturity that was never dealt with prior to the union.


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Woah Dr. Allen, presume much? No one, not even Christians, live in a vacuum, unless you live and are raised on a cultish compound you will have to deal with society and I will say that no matter how much you believe your marriage to be valid, you try living with people calling you or assuming you are a w*ore, everytime you leave your house! That takes a certain kind of strength to deal with and not everyone is cut out to do it, no matter how strong their faith. We don't live in any other world so it is no good saying "If people stopped being in the system...."

Straw poll here...how many people on here are legally married to one other person?

And how many are you going to get a divorce on principle?

B
 
Isabella said:
PolyDoc said:
And, of course, a believer should never enter into a Biblical Covenant Union (what the world would call by the pagan-Greco-Roman-Catholic word "marriage") with a non-believer.

Yes of course but how long will a believer wait before getting a bit desperate and taking the first woman who will say yes, hoping to influence her to his way of thinking later?

The problem here is treating Polygamy as a goal in itself, rather than a valid form of family which may be on the cards for you.

B
I agree, It's like that with finding a first wife too. I think it's best to focus on making new frinds, then who knows, maybe that woman will find you. Come to think about it, that's how I found my woman. :D
 
I can understand the man's perspective in finding a mate, whether it be the 1st or 2nd etc...
Understanding that I am talking about a biblical union, being an unattached woman I can give you mine. My life is under the microscope and rightly so. The abandonment by my husband needed to be look at according to the scripture and even though it hurt me to be questioned about it, I was relieved to know I was truly a free woman.
I can see why the key word in finding your mate is patience. Sometimes I
really hate that word, but it is the wise that do it.
In my search I have been on sites that practically market the women. That definetely gives one power to control the whole deal. Many of these sites
do not delineate between biblical and/or secular unions. Also different
reasons for wanting pleural unions.
For myself, I have not found all this power I'm supposed to have. Maybe because the reason I am here is that it was an answer to prayer. I am yearning for a reason to live again, to love and be loved. To be productive
to be where God wants me to be. Why would any sane person that is born-again put this on themselves except that it be from God. ( meaning recognizing polygyny as sanctioned by God and understanding that not all
men are called to do this) I also know I bring to the union a broken life, and medical problems, that thankfully are taken care of insurance wise.
Maybe you are mainly talking about young women. Yep,, good luck with that one :lol: I am only kidding, okay,, I'm done.
 
I find this thread a little bit insulting to single women and second/subsequent wives. It is harder for these kinds of women than most people on here are aware of or acknowledge. We are not comodities or family surfers! I always wanted to do the right thing and be the "good soil" and all that-NOT take advantage of my scarcity and beauty ( :lol: ). I didn't care much about licenses/appearances. Unfortunately my family did and that almost tore us apart. Fortunately, they are good lasting soil and his love for me is the miraculous lifelong kind! (that was something else that was a total surprise about all this, at least for me)

This is one time when I am leaning towards siding with B's opinion. We don't live in a vacumm and while i never cared about licenses/social approval at large, if those who have the privelege of both choose to exercise it and enjoy it while not remediating it for the ones in the family who don't have it then that can mess up the best soil! The greater burden wrongfully falls on the new members of the family and if the already established members don't take on some of it then it can crush the new members. You don't expect a new baby/adopted child in a family to have to do all the adjusting themselves. The reason some of these women even want to be a part of an established family is to draw strenght and spiritual edification that they haven't found out in the world alone. It might be hard for them to even know how to accept all the adjusting after being alone for a long time.
The burden should fall on the already established family to help new members adjust-after all she joined your party, not the other way around! Be good hosts and don't false advertise!
 
mo.nurse said:
Maybe you are mainly talking about young women. Yep,, good luck with that one :lol: I am only kidding, okay,, I'm done.
young woman, who wants to raise one... oh no that one make me sound old :o
 
Thank you B, and itainteasy, I tend to rabbit trail. you guys are right on.
 
It has recently become possible to select the gender of a baby by sorting sperm under a microscope. Insemination has to be artificial with this method, but it would allow polygamous families to have more girls than boys. The problem of supply would be eased if done on a large enough scale.
 
EnchantedLife said:
It has recently become possible to select the gender of a baby by sorting sperm under a microscope. Insemination has to be artificial with this method, but it would allow polygamous families to have more girls than boys. The problem of supply would be eased if done on a large enough scale.


:) Perhaps it is a cultural dissonance or something but IVF is incredibly expensive with any sort of gender selection treatment adding thousands (literally) to the costs of treatment. Perhaps you don't know much about IVF but it is incredibly stressful on the body and the mind and isn't really designed to be used to supply Polygamists with enough future wives. It is for women suffering from infertility.

Bels
 
ylop wrote:
Seriously now, polygamy stands against the tide of 80 or more years of feminism.
And 900 or more years of false teaching by the Church.

EnchantedLife wrote:
It has recently become possible to select the gender of a baby by sorting sperm under a microscope. Insemination has to be artificial with this method, but it would allow polygamous families to have more girls than boys. The problem of supply would be eased if done on a large enough scale.
Maybe man does not have to artificially adjust the male/female birth ratio to increase the supply of available women. Maybe all we have to do is for the Church as a whole to be obedient to Him and teach/practice His design for families.

I have often wondered if God adjusted the ratio of male/female births in response to man's rebellion against His ordained family order. In other words, if everyone who truly loved and served Him had, for the past 1,000 years, been living according to His design (patriarchy as discussed in this forum) rather than living by the false TFV-MOP as taught by the Church, maybe there would be three or four females born for every male.

Very weak support for this idea (it's not even a theory yet, just the idea from which a theory might develop) might be found in Genesis. It is hard to believe that Adam and Eve, the most physically-perfect man and woman who ever lived, would have only three children in 130 years. (Cain, Abel, and Seth. And maybe Eve was not the mother of Seth?) If the number of children they had were anything like the averages I found for families throughout the OT, they should have had 10-20 children in their first 130 years of being in a union. And don't forget - Adam lived for 800 years after the birth of Seth, and so would have had many more children. Maybe, in a patriarchal society (one that follows God's rules for families) God will allow His perfect design to function as He designed it. But in a rebellious society ("I am the lord thy wife..." and most men go along with that idol worship) He makes adjustments, partly as judgment for that rebellion and/or partly to keep a workable balance in spite of man's sin.

If there were significantly more women than men, and we still practiced monogamy-only in spite of that unbalanced condition, many women would have no man. Oops - that is pretty much the condition of the Church!!! (The actual ratio in evangelical churches, according to my research, is three women for every two men, or 1.5:1. It's much higher, as much as 4 or 5:1, in the RCC and some other non-evangelical churches.) Which is why so many of our young ladies go outside the fellowship of believers and marry unbelievers, and is also why we have so many unwed mothers in our churches. (The widows and orphans of James 1:27.) And those orphans leave the church, never to return, after graduating (or dropping out) from high school, because there is no father in their lives who can follow God's command in Ephesians 6:4. Josh McDowell says 91% of kids leave church after high school. And his numbers on that include children who have two parents - the rate for single-parent kids is near 100%.

The birth ratio thing is just an idea that's been rattling around in my skull for a few months. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Who knows? Maybe together, we can make it into a workable theory.

Or discard it as a bad idea...

But the condition of our churches with regard to the ratio of women:men, unwed mothers, and children leaving church after high school is not just an idea or even a theory - it is reality, and I have done the research to prove it.
 
ylop said:
Some thoughts I have been contemplating, using the field of economics this time:
ylop


And I argue that economics, specific supply and demand, is at the root of almost everything.
Once again my point is rather proved.
Though as others have noted there are . . . extenuating circumstances.
 
Gender selection is not IVF, Isabella. Sperm is sorted under a microscope, and then the sorted sperm is inserted into the womb. Insemination is in vivo, not in vitro. There is no strain on the woman's body, the cost is far less, and there is no delay. The obstacle is not cost, but regulatory. If polygamists used gender selection on a large scale, the government might move against it.
 
The sperm selection method I described is the Ericsson method, which is restricted in the US but legal in Mexico. A company called Microsort operates in Mexico and will sort and implant the sorted sperm into the uterus for a fee of US$1000. Average conception rate is 15%, apparently comparable to natural conception, so I accept that the cost could be thousands per successful conception. There will be travel costs to and from Mexico.

Also try Wikipedia, sex selection. Sorry, should have got more detail before posting, but the method does work and is available - in Mexico.
 
Hi there. Thought I would return to my thread as it has taken a radical turn off track. Personally I find the concept of sperm selection offensive and not what I am about at all. You only have to look at China to see the effects of man's wisdom on the boy versus girl relationship. Nevertheless I respect others rights to hold an opinion but it would be better suited in a different thread.

The reason I posted this thread was to comment on the gap between the theory of biblical patriarchy and marriage; and the reality of very few willing women.

And how the willing women may well be in the drivers seat as far as personal negotiations go.

ylop
 
Isabella said:
The problem here is treating Polygamy as a goal in itself, rather than a valid form of family which may be on the cards for you.

Totally agree. I view polygamy as a useful in certain situations, but not as a goal in and of itself. If I were to find myself in love with two women then polygamy would be an honorable way to handle the situation.

It was the same with the first wife. I never set out to get married, but when I found a women that I could not live without I married her.
 
ylop said:
Seriously now, polygamy stands against the tide of 80 or more years of feminism. As they say in sharetrading, the trend is your friend. Or put another way, it is courageous to believe that suddenly society will embrace patriarchy. Still, courage is a good thing.

I believe God works in history today as he did yesterday and I view the rise in Christian polygamy as God's answer to feminism, homosexual marriage, etc.

P.S. You want to buy shares at the bottom, not at the top. :)
 
P.S. Lastly, economically there seem to be more attractive women available for polygamy than I am able to support, house, and take care of, so it seems to me that the problem (in my case anyway) is (in both polygamy and financial investing) my own lack of resources and not the overall market itself.
 
cnystrom wrote:
P.S. Lastly, economically there seem to be more attractive women available for polygamy than I am able to support, house, and take care of, so it seems to me that the problem (in my case anyway) is (in both polygamy and financial investing) my own lack of resources and not the overall market itself.
DITTO! :lol:
 
All this takes time, a-lot of grace from God and lots of patience. We are at the point that we don't fret anymore whether we have a family like this or not, we know it's scriptural but we are tired of compromise, I just want peace in my family.
I want to see my girls grow and be the best dad I can for them. Also as I get older, sex is less important but companionship and love are. So, I guess there is not much to loose one way or another. lol
I just want to live God's good will and have a family that will please him.

Sometimes when you have nothing to loose and don't fret, you find what God has for you. Only he knows what's best for each one of us at the time of life.
 
Hi cubanito. That is an excellent relaxed attitude and should result in a good outcome, whatever that may be. The saying 'Act in haste and repent in leisure' comes to mind. On the other hand, most worthwhile things that I have achieved in life have been after considerable focus and personal effort. So for me there is a balance between a relaxed attitude and input = output. Regards, ylop
 
ylop said:
Some thoughts I have been contemplating, using the field of economics this time:

1. Polygamy is Biblical.
2. Biblical marriage is patriarchal - the man is in charge, leads, sets direction.
3. Demand for additional wives is high.
4. Western society denigrates patriarchy.
5. As a result of #4 and religious pressure, very few women will consider a Biblical marriage as in #1 and #2 above.
6. Supply of additional wives is very low. I mean, compare the number of posts where you see the old "Hi, we are new here, we have just discovered PM and are looking for someone to join our family" versus the number of posts saying "I am a single woman who has just discovered PM and would like to join a family" - actually writing that last bit almost has me rolling on the floor laughing at its ridiculous scarcity.
7. High demand and low supply means high price as in the seller can dictate the conditions of sale.
8. The seller dictating the terms of sale means in practical terms that the woman controls when, where, who with, how long; and she can also end the transaction knowing she can easily find another buyer.
9. The buyer has to drop many buying conditions that would normally be standard, and indeed are routinely used when selecting first wives.
10. Items 8 and 9 undermine item 2.
11. Add to this equation the social pressures pulling apart such relationships, and I struggle to see how this will work.

ylop

I think I can sum up your 11 points in 3 or less points. Point 1 is that patriarchal marriage is denigrated by society. Point 2 is that there's high demand for women. Point 3 is that when women know that they're high in demand then they're likely not to follow marriage in a biblical way (or in a patriarchal way, at least).

Your points make it sound like people are getting into relationships based only on availability (supply/demand) when that is not the case. If I'm with someone, I hope it is not just because she was an available women but also because I found something in and out of her that I loved and likewise for her towards me. So we have love and choosing someone you really want. If those 2 things did not matter then I'd be satisfied with taking ANY single woman out there just because she's available but of course that is not the case. That's how I've found relationships work which also explains why you have women who actually are attracted to MARRIED guys eventhough there are plenty of single guys out there and some polygamous marriages have started like that. Watch this video here. So in a sense, married couples are a supply to single women rather than the married couples just being the demanders.

From watching documentaries of women who actually wanted polygamy (rather than being pressured or forced into it) they chose polygamy based on how they liked the preexisting wife. So it wasn't a matter of wanting to join a marriage just for the husband or how the husband does with the women. In fact, in some cases, some wives have actually help to get the potential 2nd or 3rd wives. So if poly is practiced with these factors at play then I actually think the exact opposite of what you're saying would happen. A woman would be more UNLIKELY to leave not only a husband she can love but also the other wife who she has also bonded with. You can watch these documentaries which help explain my points. They're each about 1 minute long. Video 1 and Video 2.

I would also say that a husband should be looking for a 2nd wife who would follow biblical marriage NO MATTER WHAT. This is a woman who would not give up good biblical standards just because she knows she's wanted by many men or couples. You're only assuming that there are no women out there like that. And even if a woman would compromise her biblical standards just because she knows she's in high demand then that is the type of women you should probably stay away from, and if it means not being in polygamy then there's nothing wrong with that. Polygamy is not a must.
 
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