ED = EternalDreamer
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Strength, wisdom, and a soft heart
- Thread starter DeathIsNotTheEnd
- Start date
Something to consider: You are not the cause of their pain, except in a coincidental sense. The forces of our culture that created the bad programming that led to false beliefs are the true cause of that pain. You're the doctor that comes along after the fact and has to rebreak and reset the bone that was broken and then healed incorrectly.
This is an existential threat, like reaching late middle-age and having your first attention-getting major health crisis, and all of a sudden your mortality is a Real Thing, something you thought you understood before but now you realize you didn't understand at all. Churchgoers blather on all the time about sacrifice and 'leaving everything to be His disciple' and dying daily and all that, but most of them don't really mean it, not because they're bad people, but because they've been raised in a system that favors pleasant abstractions over unpleasant concrete realities.
And that goes times a million for any pleasant abstract ideas about 'male headship'....
I didn't realize what male headship was until I realized that God was showing me that taking Ginny and Ann into my family wasn't up to Cheryl. And I was 100% sincere when I told her it would break my heart if she didn't follow me into this, but that I couldn't leave the burden of the final decision up to her (a classic modern male copout), and was going to proceed believing that's what God wanted and trusting Him for the outcome.
(Important Disclaimer to Readers: I'm saying this to ED (I'm pretty lazy about names when I'm typing, and even refer to myself in private correspondence as just A) based on what he's said so far about where he is. I've have seen other men try plural marriage "whether she's happy with it or not, she can just deal with it", but I haven't seen any succeed. Don't take this as general advice to just run over your wife. Each marriage is unique.)
So all of that to say: How the women feel about it is important data that needs to be taken into account with respect to how you manage your relationships with them, but the real key here is your relationship with Him. All of those relationships are about to be tested, refined, and strengthened. The results are worth it.
This is an existential threat, like reaching late middle-age and having your first attention-getting major health crisis, and all of a sudden your mortality is a Real Thing, something you thought you understood before but now you realize you didn't understand at all. Churchgoers blather on all the time about sacrifice and 'leaving everything to be His disciple' and dying daily and all that, but most of them don't really mean it, not because they're bad people, but because they've been raised in a system that favors pleasant abstractions over unpleasant concrete realities.
And that goes times a million for any pleasant abstract ideas about 'male headship'....
I didn't realize what male headship was until I realized that God was showing me that taking Ginny and Ann into my family wasn't up to Cheryl. And I was 100% sincere when I told her it would break my heart if she didn't follow me into this, but that I couldn't leave the burden of the final decision up to her (a classic modern male copout), and was going to proceed believing that's what God wanted and trusting Him for the outcome.
(Important Disclaimer to Readers: I'm saying this to ED (I'm pretty lazy about names when I'm typing, and even refer to myself in private correspondence as just A) based on what he's said so far about where he is. I've have seen other men try plural marriage "whether she's happy with it or not, she can just deal with it", but I haven't seen any succeed. Don't take this as general advice to just run over your wife. Each marriage is unique.)
So all of that to say: How the women feel about it is important data that needs to be taken into account with respect to how you manage your relationships with them, but the real key here is your relationship with Him. All of those relationships are about to be tested, refined, and strengthened. The results are worth it.
Thank you, 'A'
Please, to anyone who prays for me: I know you don't know me from Adam, but I am sincerely trying to be honest when I say that I truly love my wife with all my heart. I am not perfect. I make mistakes. When I do, I correct them immediately. But my wife would tell you, and has told me, that there is nothing I have done to cause her to doubt me or my love and devotion. I have no desire to hurt her at all. The question I arrive at, though, is what do I do when no matter what decision I make, one of the people I love will be hurt, and the other won't benefit (even if I never try PM, my wife will still have those insecurities in just daily friendship interactions even with the SAME gender). In which case I feel God has led me to the point that, 'worst come to worst', I have to make my choices based off something OTHER than 'not causing pain to my woman'. Because that's not always possible
As much as it pains me.
I hate to break it to you, but the moment you mentioned plural marriage, those insecurities will forever be there as long as she lets them be there. Even if this other gal is completely out of the picture, your wife will feel insecure about the hypothetical woman too (ahem, I know from experience). Key words though, AS LONG AS SHE LETS THEM. It’s a heart and mind thing. And, I can say that the majority of us women have been there or are there now. Encourage her to talk with other women who have walked this path already. There is something so comforting talking to other women that have cried the same tears and understand this crazy journey that our culture doesn’t understand.
There are things we can’t comprehend, and there are things that a man can not explain to us when it comes to plural marriage. We are not wired like you guys.
Throwing @andrew’s gals out there- they are awesome and @julieb is as well.
There are things we can’t comprehend, and there are things that a man can not explain to us when it comes to plural marriage. We are not wired like you guys.
Throwing @andrew’s gals out there- they are awesome and @julieb is as well.
The level of strength and spiritual maturity that my wife (@WifeOfHisYouth) has gained through learning the biblical truth of plural marriage and the process of coming to terms with it, is something I would never have imagined. I believe most American christian women never leave the bottle feeding phase of spiritual maturity in their entire lives. And I do not blame them, I blame their husbands who refuse to lead them and allow them to go through the difficulty that is caused by learning God’s truth. Love gets confused with being nice. Jesus Christ my Lord, has always loved me, in fact, He has never even one time forsaken me, but He has let me go through living hell on earth. The insight and faith that God has granted me through all of that is something I never would have gained otherwise. Love, true love desires what best for that other person, and sometimes what is best for them is adversity. If this isn’t true then God doesn’t love me.
The truth of God’s word, every single bit of it, He gives for a reason. We don’t get to ( as many pastors do ) pick and choose which ones we like and which ones we want to ignore.
@WifeOfHisYouth I love you more than words can say. You are so beautiful, in every possible way!
The truth of God’s word, every single bit of it, He gives for a reason. We don’t get to ( as many pastors do ) pick and choose which ones we like and which ones we want to ignore.
@WifeOfHisYouth I love you more than words can say. You are so beautiful, in every possible way!
Well said
Amen!
Its interesting I was praying in the spirit this morning and God gave me a word of encouragement for someone. I believe it's for you. Please test it and see that it's true before placing any weight on it. I'm giving this word as someone who is receiving it for myself as well. I say it with trembling and excitement at the same time.
The word was that you need to express to your wife that you are a part of the church, the bride of christ, and that your submission to Christ is no dishonor to you but a safeguard. That wherever He goes you too will go, wherever He stays you too will stay, His people will be your people and whatever He wills you shall obey and so you and your family will be safe in His Holy covering.
Gods spirit rest upon your house and give peace to your wife.
The word was that you need to express to your wife that you are a part of the church, the bride of christ, and that your submission to Christ is no dishonor to you but a safeguard. That wherever He goes you too will go, wherever He stays you too will stay, His people will be your people and whatever He wills you shall obey and so you and your family will be safe in His Holy covering.
Gods spirit rest upon your house and give peace to your wife.
Thank you, Paulsen. I will pass that on
I am trying very hard to exercise all discernment in this. I am trying to take myself out of the equation and let Christ's plans shine out. That is what I need wisdom in
UPDATE
Ok so... I hope y'all are still praying because the wire is fast tightening so to speak.
My friend just confessed her feelings for me.
I did not say anything or ask her, so although it wasnt unexpected, I was surprised by her forthrightness.
Feeling a lot of spiritual warfare here. And I dont say that lightly.
The wife needs time before I really approach her about this again.
I asked my friend to go pray about it, study the Word, and I did sit and forewarn her of the stuff I've been going through, and told her of the cost and to count it. I also told her of my wife struggling with this. She loves my wife and doesnt want to hurt her so...thats good.
I am remaining in prayer. But Im feeling very...uncertain? Afraid. Aftaid of my wife's response. If I must, I will choose her, but I dont want to abandon my friend either T.T
Help.
Ok so... I hope y'all are still praying because the wire is fast tightening so to speak.
My friend just confessed her feelings for me.
I did not say anything or ask her, so although it wasnt unexpected, I was surprised by her forthrightness.
Feeling a lot of spiritual warfare here. And I dont say that lightly.
The wife needs time before I really approach her about this again.
I asked my friend to go pray about it, study the Word, and I did sit and forewarn her of the stuff I've been going through, and told her of the cost and to count it. I also told her of my wife struggling with this. She loves my wife and doesnt want to hurt her so...thats good.
I am remaining in prayer. But Im feeling very...uncertain? Afraid. Aftaid of my wife's response. If I must, I will choose her, but I dont want to abandon my friend either T.T
Help.
What do you think God wants you to do? Your feelings, her feelings, other-her's feelings—none of that really matters.
Go back to that thing about the doctor. Or imagine medicine before the discovery of opiates. You have to do what's right and good even if it hurts. So your word to her is not "I won't do this if you're afraid or if it hurts", it's "I know this is going to hurt like hell, because everything in our culture has conditioned you to be afraid of this, to build up a self-worth and self-image that is not based on God's values, but He has something better in store, and we'll get through this together".
How sure are you that what you believe is true?
How sure are you that God has led you to this point?
You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. It is the uniform testimony of the women in this group that this truth has made them better women and made their husbands better men (see, e.g., WOHY's testimony above).
Imagine Mary watching her son die a horrible, excruciating death. You're about to have a whole new understanding of what that feels like.
Praying for you, brother.
I agree with Andrew’s post above, you can’t give your wife the option to call the shots. She is emotional and fickle (like ALL women). You give her the option to control it and she will either make the choice to put you first and “let” you marry the potential, then when things get hard will decided she was wrong and you need to fix it; OR she will just decided now that you can’t do this and it puts her in authority over you. As a first wife, the process sucks and it hurts and there are thousands of tears she will cry (either way you decide). Follow what God is leading and she will learn what real submission is. It is actually a beautiful thing.
Plural is the closest thing to turning her into a diamond- the pressure is intense, but the beauty will come.
*I am not just saying just jump in, seek God, follow Him and do what He tells you. Not others.
Plural is the closest thing to turning her into a diamond- the pressure is intense, but the beauty will come.
*I am not just saying just jump in, seek God, follow Him and do what He tells you. Not others.
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Nailed it.
A question for all as I deal with this.
As I mentioned to @andrew in a conversation last night, my wife's current position is that in our marriage vows, I promised the typical monogamy clause, and she does not want to release me from that because she does not want PM.
I feel like she has a fair point. For now I am sort of taking the approach that until God gives me a very clear direction of what to do, I need to wait for her to be ready for that. But...I dont know if that is just letting her dictate the change or not. It may be irrational fear, but it is not unnatural fear that she is attempting to protect herself from by 'claiming' our vows
Any thoughts?
As I mentioned to @andrew in a conversation last night, my wife's current position is that in our marriage vows, I promised the typical monogamy clause, and she does not want to release me from that because she does not want PM.
I feel like she has a fair point. For now I am sort of taking the approach that until God gives me a very clear direction of what to do, I need to wait for her to be ready for that. But...I dont know if that is just letting her dictate the change or not. It may be irrational fear, but it is not unnatural fear that she is attempting to protect herself from by 'claiming' our vows
Any thoughts?
Oh she totally has a fair point. A vow is a vow. If we make them, we have to keep them to our own hurt.
Don't think of it like that, is my advice. Think of it as waiting for God to do the work necessary to clean up the mess you made when you made a well meaning vow without complete knowledge of what you would eventually understand.
I don't know what alternative you're thinking of to waiting: Would you go ahead with your desires in spite of your vow, just to make sure your wife didn't have the last say? Would you order her to tell you that she releases you from her vow? Would you pester her about it until you wear her down and she really doesn't care what you do?
There aren't many happy endings down any of those roads. Unless you like your women like I like my beer, ice-cold and bitter.
My approach would be (has been) to tell her that you will not break your vow, and while you think it would be a good idea and quite in-line with scripture for her to release you from the vow, you nevertheless are prepared to go to your grave "forsaking all others". And then just leave it at that, dropping the matter until she brings it up again. If she's ever going to believe in your leadership the way you'll need her to, you'll have to show her that when you say something, you mean it harder than any 10 lesser men can mean anything.
Don't think of it like that, is my advice. Think of it as waiting for God to do the work necessary to clean up the mess you made when you made a well meaning vow without complete knowledge of what you would eventually understand.
I don't know what alternative you're thinking of to waiting: Would you go ahead with your desires in spite of your vow, just to make sure your wife didn't have the last say? Would you order her to tell you that she releases you from her vow? Would you pester her about it until you wear her down and she really doesn't care what you do?
There aren't many happy endings down any of those roads. Unless you like your women like I like my beer, ice-cold and bitter.
My approach would be (has been) to tell her that you will not break your vow, and while you think it would be a good idea and quite in-line with scripture for her to release you from the vow, you nevertheless are prepared to go to your grave "forsaking all others". And then just leave it at that, dropping the matter until she brings it up again. If she's ever going to believe in your leadership the way you'll need her to, you'll have to show her that when you say something, you mean it harder than any 10 lesser men can mean anything.
My husband said the traditional vows as well. For a long time, I held those in my heart as a way to not let him progress in this because I didn’t want him to. I felt safe in holding that over his head, where if a relationship progressed, I could say, “ah ah ah, but you promised to FORSAKE ALL OTHERS” (even if I knew it was in ignorance). I did NOT want to release him, and that was out of fear and control. It really came down to if I trusted him with my life, and more importantly, if I was willing to be responsible for not allowing God to move in his life. During this time, he wasn’t pushing me to do anything but I knew that was his hope- but I also knew that he wouldn’t let me keep him from where God was leading him, promise or not, God was who he would listen to.
I tearfully released him of his vows.
For me personally, the releasing of vows felt like a loss. I knew our marriage didn’t change and that he was still going to care for me as he had always done, but it’s another breaking of our cultural conditioning.
Keep conversations going, keep showing her she is loved, keep reassuring her that you aren’t trying to replace or upgrade her. Get her talking to other women.
One of the sweetest things my husband has done in the process was creating a new statement of love and commitment that was scriptually sound. It give me a replacement to the wedding vows and was actually more meaningful because they have been tested and have been proven true year after year.
Just because the potential has expressed feelings it doesn’t mean it is time to jump with both feet into a marriage. Time is needed on all sides.
I tearfully released him of his vows.
For me personally, the releasing of vows felt like a loss. I knew our marriage didn’t change and that he was still going to care for me as he had always done, but it’s another breaking of our cultural conditioning.
Keep conversations going, keep showing her she is loved, keep reassuring her that you aren’t trying to replace or upgrade her. Get her talking to other women.
One of the sweetest things my husband has done in the process was creating a new statement of love and commitment that was scriptually sound. It give me a replacement to the wedding vows and was actually more meaningful because they have been tested and have been proven true year after year.
Just because the potential has expressed feelings it doesn’t mean it is time to jump with both feet into a marriage. Time is needed on all sides.
Oh no, not that. I am thinking along the lines of, if I felt like God is giving me clear direction in this, I would simply say that to her. I would let her know that this is what I knew God was asking us to do, yet remind her that I wanted to not break my vows to her, and so I would ask her then to release me from that vow in order to follow God's call on my life.
I realize that fully. Right now I am content just being friends with the 'other'. She is having a harder time of it, and for her sake I am distressed over the situation. My wife has agreed to spend the next month praying about it and working on her insecurities and fears, and I want to at the least, give her that time. So in the meantime, I am simply seeking to remain in prayer and better discern God's direction.
She's actually told me that my attempts to reassure her of those things make her feel worse, not better. I'm not 100% clear why, but she's expressed that it feels a bit like a backhanded compliment, since it's not a 'end result' she desires.
I wish I could get her to talk to another first wife, but I have no idea how to. Every time I mention it (twice so far lol) she sort of shrugs it off and says she doesn't think it would be helpful and/or she's not at the point of needing that yet.
Also, not sure if this means anything (not saying this excuses me from my vows)...
But I distinctly remember, on our wedding day, that when I said that line I felt very uncomfortable with it. In fact I seem to remember we even had a discussion before the wedding about whether to include that line. The wife insisted, of course, and although I felt vaguely uneasy about it I agreed to keep the peace and for fear of losing her. But I do remember standing there in the afternoon, with the pastor asking if I would forsake all others and cleave only to her, and I remember thinking "I shouldn't be doing this", and saying it anyway :/
Too late now, of course, but...the Holy Spirit was poking me even then.
But I distinctly remember, on our wedding day, that when I said that line I felt very uncomfortable with it. In fact I seem to remember we even had a discussion before the wedding about whether to include that line. The wife insisted, of course, and although I felt vaguely uneasy about it I agreed to keep the peace and for fear of losing her. But I do remember standing there in the afternoon, with the pastor asking if I would forsake all others and cleave only to her, and I remember thinking "I shouldn't be doing this", and saying it anyway :/
Too late now, of course, but...the Holy Spirit was poking me even then.
I’ve been there! It’s fear based. What she probably feels is, “You only tell me this, because you want me to agree, then you will abandon me.” BUT should you really stop, it just proves in her mind, you don’t want her. (At least that’s how I felt)
I am still a first and only wife. So, I don’t have as much wisdom or advice when comes to plural living, but I have walked the valleys and peaks and have the emotional scars from this journey. I am happy to just listen to her and share what I have learned. It’s a lonely heartbreaking road. But the sun does come out.
Talking about it makes it real. And that is scary.
Private message me if she wants my number to talk or text.
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