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Stages of accepting PM

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I take that back. Well there is that, but there is something deeper, more spiritual at work:

"one and only everything-in-one worshiped and adored wife"

There is only room for 1 on the pedestal.
Six of one, half dozen of t’other.
I agree with both of your statements.
Nothing more clearly shows the lie of matriarchy that is embedded in a “50/50 marriage” than having more than one wife. Either the husband becomes a total tag-a-long, or he steps into leadership (with the caveat that all to often he goes into the opposite ditch and becomes overly controlling).
Slewfoot fights the idea of husband headship and uses either or both of your scenarios to keep it out of balance.
 
Nope, not for me. He was (potentially going to be) breaking a promise, a vow we made. That’s where I was. It’s interesting that soooo many men have this idea that a woman is upset about PM because of matriarchy. That she’s being dethroned, that she’s in rebellion. It’s not about rebellion men- it’s about trust and being able to trust your leader.The bottom line was a broken vow. If I couldn’t trust my head to keep that vow how could I follow and trust ANY OTHER WORDS or vows that he made in the future. Because of this issue God dealt with my heart about releasing VV76 from ungodly vows, not for me- but so God could use him, so he could use us!!! I realized that vow was potentially going to be a stumbling block in my heart and must be permanently removed. This is what I dealt with, not rebellion. It has been about trust. Period.
I submit that possibly it was a form of rebellion that was based on the justified righteousness of him breaking the vow
 
Nope, not for me. He was (potentially going to be) breaking a promise, a vow we made. That’s where I was. It’s interesting that soooo many men have this idea that a woman is upset about PM because of matriarchy. That she’s being dethroned, that she’s in rebellion. It’s not about rebellion men- it’s about trust and being able to trust your leader.The bottom line was a broken vow. If I couldn’t trust my head to keep that vow how could I follow and trust ANY OTHER WORDS or vows that he made in the future. Because of this issue God dealt with my heart about releasing VV76 from ungodly vows, not for me- but so God could use him, so he could use us!!! I realized that vow was potentially going to be a stumbling block in my heart and must be permanently removed. This is what I dealt with, not rebellion. It has been about trust. Period.

Generally speaking (since I don't know you) I see how what you say could be it or part of it. But the problem is the average women doesn't take their vows seriously at all. Though maybe they still take HIS vows seriously.
 
Generally speaking (since I don't know you) I see how what you say could be it or part of it. But the problem is the average women doesn't take their vows seriously at all. Though maybe they still take HIS vows seriously.
I don't see this. I think average women do take their vows seriously. If you have any actual reason to say this generalization please share it.

Note that the average woman never vowed to "obey" her husband, because she didn't want to. To choose not to follow her side of the scriptural order for marriage is not dismissing her vows. Rather, it's upholding what she actually vowed and holding the vows to such a high level that they trump scripture.
 
Nope, not for me. He was (potentially going to be) breaking a promise, a vow we made. That’s where I was. It’s interesting that soooo many men have this idea that a woman is upset about PM because of matriarchy. That she’s being dethroned, that she’s in rebellion. It’s not about rebellion men- it’s about trust and being able to trust your leader.The bottom line was a broken vow. If I couldn’t trust my head to keep that vow how could I follow and trust ANY OTHER WORDS or vows that he made in the future. Because of this issue God dealt with my heart about releasing VV76 from ungodly vows, not for me- but so God could use him, so he could use us!!! I realized that vow was potentially going to be a stumbling block in my heart and must be permanently removed. This is what I dealt with, not rebellion. It has been about trust. Period.
Excellent explanation and a summation of discussions in my home over the last six months. haven't gotten to the willingness to let go... yet. May Abba provide!
 
Ali and I had this conversation this afternoon.
The potential breaking of the vow wasn’t what the big problem was for her.
She just thought that it was wrong Scripturaly. That was her whole focus and she was going to show me the error of my thinking. During those years we knew absolutely no one who held a poly view, her husband was just plain wrong.
We discussed the word rebellion. I hold that there are soft forms of rebellion, but most react to the word as if you are accusing them of witchcraft.
So I brought up the word rebel. A rebel is ok in many circumstances, but rebellion is a much harsher word. Hmmm.
Some forms of resistance are actually mild forms of rebellion. “Even though I am feeling a nudge to give to that homeless-looking person, I won’t because they will probably use it in ways that I don’t agree with.” That resistance is actually rebellion against what YHWH wants you to do.
If we have acquiescence/agreement on one end of the spectrum and resistance/rebellion on the opposite end, the middle ground is going to be”Come, let us reason together,”

Ali felt that she was in “righteous resistance”, but it was a subtle and mild form of rebellion.
Let me hasten to add that we never fought or had hard words about it, we just worked through it slowly and I gave her a lot of space to turn her rig around. She has a degree in Theology and she wasn’t going to take my word for it.
It wasn’t until we found BibFam that things started clicking. “Steve, there are actually others that believe this also!!!!!”
 
I don't see this. I think average women do take their vows seriously. If you have any actual reason to say this generalization please share it.

Around 40% of wives cheat. So no, the average woman doesn't take them seriously. Additionally in some 50% of marriages end and of those 70-90% involve a women who didn't feel the need to hold to the 'till death do us part' vow. Some unknown significant % of those women will nevertheless expect the man to uphold his end of the vows regardless and keep sending cash her way.

And that's just broken marriages. Some additional [likely significant] % above that are yet intact marriages where the wife is willing to leave if they find someone better than their current husband (however much better that need be).

Note that the average woman never vowed to "obey" her husband, because she didn't want to.

The standard vows for hundreds of years has been for her to vow to obey. I have no idea how many pull that out of the vows today. And if the average woman doesn't vow to obey, then the average women is in rebellion against God and can't be expected to hold to her vows anyway.

Really, I think the biggest issue faced in accepting PM is the fear he is replacing them. Because if he was like her, that is what she would do. Men tend to accumulate women, women tend to only be loyal to one at a time. But both sexes tend to think the other thinks, feels and acts they way they do. But it's not true. Just like Christ can love and keep all of us, so can a husband all his wives. But we commensurately can only serve one master; we must choose between serving God or serving sin.
 
Around 40% of wives cheat. So no, the average woman doesn't take them seriously.
I'd call that proof (or at least consonant with the idea) that they do take them seriously: "If what I do with another man is cheating, then you having another woman is cheating, too — our vow says so."
 
Really, I think the biggest issue faced in accepting PM is the fear he is replacing them. Because if he was like her, that is what she would do. Men tend to accumulate women, women tend to only be loyal to one at a time. But both sexes tend to think the other thinks, feels and acts they way they do. But it's not true.

Perfectly stated! At least for me. The husband and I just spoke about this. It takes some time, in this culture especially, to be able to separate my feelings of devotion from his and realize the differences... and that they’re okay.
Great summary.
 
Generally speaking (since I don't know you) I see how what you say could be it or part of it. But the problem is the average women doesn't take their vows seriously at all. Though maybe they still take HIS vows seriously.
That is a HUGE assumption heaped on "the average woman". It's Grand Canyon huge!
How many women have you interviewed and followed on a daily basis?
 
the average women doesn't take their vows seriously at all. Though maybe they still take HIS vows seriously.
Hmm, another thought: A man's vow of monogamy is that he will hold himself to the standards that govern a woman (have no more than one partner). So, yes, the woman holding herself to the standards of a man (being with more than one partner) does not reflect on what he has effectively submitted to. Hence it makes sense that wanton acts by her do not release him.

And of course when a man releases himself from such submission to woman, woman is displeased. Oh well, babe. Things ain't what you thought they was.

If my tone is overly crusty at the moment, please forgive. I just had a conversation with a woman of interest in which I had to lay some things straight.
 
Note that the average woman never vowed to "obey" her husband, because she didn't want to. To choose not to follow her side of the scriptural order for marriage is not dismissing her vows. Rather, it's upholding what she actually vowed and holding the vows to such a high level that they trump scripture.

No you are missing the point. It is entirely arbitrary. When it comes to 'till death do us part' they don't take them seriously either. Only when it suits them. God's requirement she obey her husband trumps her vows if she wishes to claim to be a Christian.

I'd call that proof (or at least consonant with the idea) that they do take them seriously

If I said the average airline pilot was careless and causing crashes and you retorted, "No, only 40% of planes that take off crash due to pilot error.", we would all rightfully say ithat you are pedantically missing the point. 40% is close enough to average that the difference is of little importance. But even more important: infidelity is but one way women disregard their vows.

That is a HUGE assumption heaped on "the average woman". It's Grand Canyon huge!
How many women have you interviewed and followed on a daily basis?

Pft. I watch what people do, not what they say.

The average person lies. The average woman cheats as often as the man. The average Christian marriage fails as often as the secular one. The average marriage ends in divorce. The average divorce is initiated by the woman. The average divorced man ends up still providing for his wife despite dissolution of her obligations in the marriage (so far as I can tell). Folks can quibble about numbers all they want; the stats are more often far worse than falling short.

Sorry, I'm just not going to engage in the usual churchian approach that treats women like innocent angels and blames men for everything. Why would you trust anything said in a marriage vow at face value? They're neither legally nor socially enforced. They are effectively meaningless and largely treated that way. People may feel like they take their vows seriously, especially in that moment. But in the grand scheme of how they act, not even close.

We've heard of several cases here of women divorcing their husbands (or churches encouraging them to) because the husband simply believes polygamy isn't sinful. Theological belief is not a violation of anything regarding vows. Juxtapose that against the number of divorces rejected court because the woman vowed 'to death do us part' at the wedding. Or against the approach the church takes about women obeying their husband. Or contrast the strong teachings against divorce in the scripture with the completely lackadaisical behavior of Christians (who divorce at rates equal to the godless pagans).

It ought to be abundantly clear how seriously folks take wedding vows.
 
If I said the average airline pilot was careless and causing crashes and you retorted, "No, only 40% of planes that take off crash due to pilot error.", we would all rightfully say ithat you are pedantically missing the point. 40% is close enough to average that the difference is of little importance. But even more important: infidelity is but one way women disregard their vows.
My point wasn't about the number but rather something more subtle. The very framing of the acts of adulterous wives as "cheating" (and the reinforcing of that framing through repetition) is effective at keeping our attention on the egalitarian social order of which those vows are part rather than on deeper patriarchal tradition which has no such vows.

In the world that has concepts of cheating, male prerogative doesn't exist.

If you're tossing a ball around with friends and one says, "Oops, I fouled," the implication is that a game with certain rules is being played, rules that apply as well to your own actions. Women embrace the language of vows and violation of vows when it's applied to them so that they can then apply it to men, as an alternative to checking their jealousy and submitting. This shows how deeply they believe in the value of vows — as a tool for achieving the real objective, which is to limit not their own sphere of action but that of men. Or at least that's a way of describing what I was getting at.

I haven't been reading the thread closely, so my remarks are intended as no further agreement or disagreement with your general thrust, rockfox. I just saw your comment about whether women take vows seriously, got an idea about some of the language we use around these things, and took the opportunity to share it.
 
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Sorry, I'm just not going to engage in the usual churchian approach that treats women like innocent angels and blames men for everything.
.
Once again, extreme statements to prove your point...

Just because some guys like me choose to acknowledge the error on both sides, it doesn't mean we think women are innocent angels. It doesn't mean we blame all men either. Sin is universal. We all come short. Men don't get a pass. Sorry.
 
Here are the stats in my immediate family.
I am divorced from my first wife. Communication failure, nobody messed around.
Married a divorced woman, her husband had been unfaithful multiple times.
Second wife divorced from an unfaithful husband. But she has been MIA for two years and I am not counting her.
Current second wife was a widow, but her husband had been grossly unfaithful.

So out of six people, two males were the only ones that were unfaithful.
 
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My point wasn't about the number but rather something more subtle. The very framing of the acts of adulterous wives as "cheating" (and the reinforcing of that framing through repetition) is effective at keeping our attention on the egalitarian social order of which those vows are part rather than on deeper patriarchal tradition which has no such vows.

In the world that has concepts of cheating, male prerogative doesn't exist.

If you're tossing a ball around with friends and one says, "Oops, I fouled," the implication is that a game with certain rules is being played, rules that apply as well to your own actions. Women embrace the language of vows and violation of vows when it's applied to them so that they can then apply it to men, as an alternative to checking their jealousy and submitting. This shows how deeply they believe in the value of vows — as a tool for achieving the real objective, which is to limit not their own sphere of action but that of men. Or at least that's a way of describing what I was getting at.

I haven't been reading the thread closely, so my remarks are intended as no further agreement or disagreement with your general thrust, rockfox. I just saw your comment about whether women take vows seriously, got an idea about some of the language we use around these things, and took the opportunity to share it.

I see what you're getting at now mystic. Thats a really good observation.

keeping our attention on the egalitarian social order of which those vows are part rather than on deeper patriarchal tradition which has no such vows.

Do you mean a patriarchal tradition has no vows period or just no vows limiting a man to one woman?
 
Here are the stats in my immediate family.
I am divorced from my first wife. Communication failure, nobody messed around.
Married a divorced woman, her husband had been unfaithful multiple times.
Second wife divorced from an unfaithful husband. But she has been MIA for two years and I am not counting her.
Current second wife was a widow, but her husband had been grossly unfaithful.

So out of six people, two males were the only ones that were unfaithful.

Personal anecdotes are just that. Statistically speaking, women and men commit marital infidelity at about equal rates.

Now, given men are biologically polygamous with a drive to have multiple women, we would actually expect them to cheat at higher rates in a monogamous society. And historically they did. But in recent years rates among females have caught up to men; likely owing to the way marriage is changing and changing social attitudes towards sex and infidelity. Note, a lot of this is based on self reporting surveys; actual behavior may not have changed.

This highlights one of the reasons PM is so important: it channels mans natural drive into healthy, pro-family structures instead of destructive behaviors.
 
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Here are the stats in my immediate family.
I am divorced from my first wife. Communication failure, nobody messed around.
Married a divorced woman, her husband had been unfaithful multiple times.
Second wife divorced from an unfaithful husband. But she has been MIA for two years and I am not counting her.
Current second wife was a widow, but her husband had been grossly unfaithful.

So out of six people, two males were the only ones that were unfaithful.

Thank you @steve it helps to know there are real people out there living a real life and making the best of it, with God's help.
 
Statistically speaking, women and men commit marital infidelity at about equal rates.
I submit that you are looking at the forest, but not looking at the trees. It appears that you are assuming that cheating stats for Christian women are the same as for non-Christians because the divorce stats are equalizing between the groups.
I think that this is a mistake for several reasons.
One reason would be that I don’t think that couples are getting married in equal percentages in both groups.
Be that as it may, Satan hates YHWH’s plan for families and is actively trying to destroy it. What is not recognized is that destroying Christian families is a higher priority to him than destroying non-Christian families.
All this to say that I think that if the stats were dissected it would be found that while the numbers on divorces are close, it cannot be assumed the the reasons are the same. I just haven’t seen the proof that 40% of Christian women are cheating. Agreed that the stats for my family are anecdotal, but they are for six people. Not a huge number, but larger numbers carry more weight than just comparing a couple of people.
Also please understand that the priority to destroy the marriage increases substantially for Christian plural marriages.
 
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This highlights one of the reasons PM is so important: it channels mans natural drive into healthy, pro-family structures instead of destructive behaviors.
I totally agree.
 
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