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Meat Patriarchs' Journal 3.21, 'Which traditional marriage..?'

PeteR

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What an excellent short article by attorney Rick Knuth!! Titled So Which "Traditional Marriage" do People want to save?, he nails a topic I had never considered! 'Traditional marriage' has changed considerably, just in the last 200 years!

I recommend the whole article, but here is a pithy quote worth discussing! Great ammo against the naysayers out there....

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"Until the passage of Married Women’s Acts in 1898, a married woman’s property was controlled by her husband, even property she brought into the marriage. Married women were legally incompetent to transfer assets or make binding contracts for themselves.
This was preceded by an even older tradition, “coveture,” under which a woman, once married, lost her separate identity. The wife was considered to be her husband’s property, and all she owned was under his control. He could dispose of his wife’s property and could command her labor, even her body itself."
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Frankly, I wish he had written more as there is much usefulness to better understanding the history of marriage, particularly in the more recent ceturies.
 
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I was surprised at how Biblical, minus poly, marriage was just 150 or 200 years ago.

The 'traditional marriage' guys really hold a two edged sword when they utter those words.
 
Coverture is basically the legal application of Gen 2:24 and Num 31. It is the only way to have unity in marriage or society. The moment married women were made separate legal entities they began to have interests separate and against their husbands and the gender wars and divorce epidemics were inevitable. As will be the downfall of our society as the family can no longer be maintained.
 
Well, I for one, can't be too unhappy with the fact that there is some recourse for women whose husbands molest their children or engage in other harmful behaviors. Now granted, having spoken to the perpetrator of such a crime, I know that polygamy would have quite likely prevented that from occurring in his case, in the first place.

This became an argument about poly and molestation. But it started as an objection to coverture. So I just want to make clear, protecting the innocent is a rightful function of the law, regardless of the relative legal status of men and women or what rights a woman has in marriage. What you bring up has exactly nothing to do with coverture.

More precisely around the time of Christ. Women did not have a vote at that time or previously to my knowledge, but they did have control over their own property whether it’s source was by inheritance or estate.

And marriage in the Roman empire at that time was an absolute mess, a lot like it is today (both in legal organization and horrible outcome). But this isn't how property and inheritance was done in the OT. With the possible exception of dowry, so far as I can tell all property was in the man's name and inheritance went from him to his son. And she certainly couldn't run off with the man's children and property like today (which gives huge incentive for women to divorce). That stayed with him, just as under the common law tradition of coverture.
 
And marriage in the Roman empire at that time was an absolute mess, a lot like it is today (both in legal organization and horrible outcome). But this isn't how property and inheritance was done in the OT. With the possible exception of dowry, so far as I can tell all property was in the man's name and inheritance went from him to his son. And she certainly couldn't run off with the man's children and property like today (which gives huge incentive for women to divorce). That stayed with him, just as under the common law tradition of coverture.
I wasn’t referring at all to Roman family culture.

And regarding OT customs, Hagar left with Ishmael, as did Zipporah with her sons and presumably her dowry. Gideon had a concubine that raised one of his sons in another town. These are the instances I’m aware of in OT instances. I’m open to other instances but am not aware of instances like you’re quoting.

As far as property, the Proverbs 31 woman bought property on her own, and at least around the time of Christ, women could buy property, were encouraged to buy property, and managed their own property received as inheritance for their children. (Per Talmud Kethuboth)
 
I was surprised at how Biblical, minus poly, marriage was just 150 or 200 years ago.

It seems like people are always surprised how much culture has changed. It is one of the reasons why I love history.

The 'traditional marriage' guys really hold a two edged sword when they utter those words.

Yea it is a marketing term. It has little true meaning.
 
I wasn’t referring at all to Roman family culture.

You spoke of the time of Christ. Roman law and Greek culture were very influential if not in full force. Things were different than when the OT was given.

Hagar left with Ishmael

per the customs of concubinage. And they was sent away, not left. Ishmael was no longer desired now that Sarah had a true born son. pre-law

as did Zipporah with her sons and presumably her dowry

That is Ex 18. She didn't leave, he sent her away. It's not even written like divorce, as likely sent to safety. And her father later brought them back to Moses after they had escaped Egypt. And some associate her with Num 12:1; so she was still there later.

Gideon had a concubine that raised one of his sons in another town.

...

He also had a concubine in Shechem, who gave birth to a son, whom he named Abimelech.

That's not talking about her leaving. That's talking about a concubine he had which happened to live elsewhere. The only such case I know of in scripture where the concubine didn't live in the same household.

managed their own property received as inheritance for their children.

That's usually the dowry.
 
You spoke of the time of Christ. Roman law and Greek culture were very influential if not in full force. Things were different than when the OT was given.
We do not know how different. There is not enough information given other than a few instances to determine how different it was. And though the Romans and the Greeks were the prominent culture, very few instances are recorded where those cultures tried to force them from living their Hebrew culture. Antiochus Epiphanes being one of those, and that failed miserably. The Talmud Ketuboth (written and compiled around/after the time of Christ) very distinctly shows ownership and management of property and the resulting rents and money by the wife. The book of Judith (Pre Christ) describes a rich widow who was apparently in full ownership and management of her own money and property.


per the customs of concubinage. And they was sent away, not left. Ishmael was no longer desired now that Sarah had a true born son. pre-law
. I’m not sure this response helps your point. “Per the customs of concubinage”. Them being sent away, as opposed to one leaving, seems to me to be a distinction without a noticeable difference.



That is Ex 18. She didn't leave, he sent her away. It's not even written like divorce, as likely sent to safety. And her father later brought them back to Moses after they had escaped Egypt. And some associate her with Num 12:1; so she was still there later.
. Its written different because Zipporah was not guilty of adultery. As such, she was entitled to leave with everything she came into the marriage with. That she left with the children also serves to reinforce my point and discredit yours.



This seems to be a case where both the concubine and her son were excluded and not considered part of the family. The reasons and specifics aren’t given, but the attitude of the family, and the anger of the estranged son, seem to support a concubine who was in disfavor.



That's not talking about her leaving. That's talking about a concubine he had which happened to live elsewhere. The only such case I know of in scripture where the concubine didn't live in the same household.
Probably the same scenario as Hagar.


That's usually the dowry.
But not exclusively. There are other factors and scenarios whereby a woman would have her own money. Point being there are and were exceptions to the norm, and those exceptions were recognized and facilitated with certain presumed boundaries. Presumed because there is not enough evidence to say they were allowed to vote, though I’d guess that they weren’t from the principle of the woman keeping silent in the assembly.

There’s also the example of Lydia, who was a merchant and owned her own home. And she was most likely from the Roman or Greek culture.
 
The only people I know who consider Zipporah to be the woman in Numbers 12:1, are folks who are desperate to believe that Moses only had one wife.
 
Its written different because Zipporah was not guilty of adultery. As such, she was entitled to leave with everything she came into the marriage with. That she left with the children also serves to reinforce my point and discredit yours.
I think that the fact she left with the children reinforces the idea that they were sent to safety. Who needs to be kept safe more than the children?

I would not be dogmatic about this one way or the other, as it can be read either way. But that uncertainty means that we cannot use this passage to build theology upon, because we know it is uncertain. However long we debate whether she was sent away as in divorced vs sent away as in sent to safety, and figure out which is more probable, the fact will still remain that both options are possibilities and this is still not firm ground to use to support theology around either perspective.
 
The safety argument is a hard one to make at this point. God has already told Moses that all the men who had sought to kill him are dead, and the angel has already been pacified. To our knowledge, Moses does not know that he will be the bringer of the plagues, (aside from turning the river to blood, which shouldn’t have been cause for concern for the family’s safety) just that he is to tell Pharoah to let God’s people go. And, Moses’ intent to take his family with him to Egypt is established in verse 18 to see if his brethren are still alive and presumably to introduce his children and wife to the family, much like when Jacob left Laban.
 
In contrast, Zipporah has made a very unusual comment to Moses, “Surely a bloody husband art thou to me” and then again, “A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision”.


The Rabbinic Period
As soon as codified Jewish law was recorded, there was the develop- ment (which might have biblical origins) of the notion of dower (ketubah) for all brides, and this became, by rabbinic decree, a pre-condition to any marriage (first or not, virgin bride or not). Thus while the right to divorce remained unilateral for the husband, with no right of consent by the wife, it was now restricted by a clear financial obligation imposed on the husband to compensate his wife if he exercised his right to engage in unilateral divorce absent judi- cially declared fault on her part. The Talmud even records views that if the husband cannot pay the financial obligation, he is prohibited from divorcing his wife. Indeed, the wife, as a precondition to marriage could insist on a dower higher than the minimum promulgated by the rabbis. In the case of divorce for provable fault by the wife, the obligation to pay dower was removed. In addition, there is the clear enunciation of the wife’s right to sue for divorce where there is fault by the husband, including such grounds as provable repugnancy, impotence, and other such grounds. In such a case, the husband must divorce his wife (and in most cases pay the dower too). Of course, divorce could be by mutual consent, subject to whatever agreement the parties wished. (Page 18)

Maimonides (Rambam) ruled that Jewish law did not possess any annulment power, but that the obligation upon a husband to divorce his wife for fault included her assertion (even if unproven) that “he was repugnant to her.” In such a circumstance, the hus- band must divorce his wife, and a Jewish law court should compel such a divorce under the threat of court sanction, including physical coercion if the husband would not give the get of his own free will. (Page 20)

From Marriage, Divorce and the Abandoned Wife in Jewish Law, by Michael J. Broyd

What’s Zipporah talking about? Obviously she’s not happy that she had to circumcise her son, and her throwing the foreskin at Moses’ feet appears to be quite out of the ordinary. Couple that with the statement “bloody husband” (dam S1818 chathan S2860) and its one of those statements that is easy to read right past without understanding what it means. Dam is the word for blood (as that which when shed causes death) of man or animal. It is first used in Genesis 4:10 in an anthromophorpic analogy by God in his conversation with Cain about Abel. What hast thou done? The voice of thy brothers blood crieth unto me from the ground.

It seems to me that there are two possible understandings for this phrase.
  1. Either she is saying that he is an unclean, repulsive man to her
  2. Or, she is saying that he is dead to her.
The story basically ends there without any further clarification of the event. We wouldnt even know that she went back to her fathers house except in Exodus 18:2 it states that Jethro, Moses’ father in law, took Zipporah, Moses wife, after he had sent her back.

This bold phrase comes from the word shilluwach S7964 and means: a dismissal,(of a wife), divorce (especially the document); also dower (of a daughter) presents

A. There are other words in Hebrew for sending someone away generically, such as S7971 (which is also used occasionally for sending away as in divorce but is primarily a generic and very common sending away) but S7964 is only used 3 times, and those are exclusively used as sending away with a dower (into marriage 2x) (back to her father 1x)
B. Zipporah was not Moses daughter.
C. Scripture uses the word for sending her back with her dower. Which would be the case if a divorce occurred without fault from the woman. With fault on the woman’s part, the word used elsewhere in scripture is S7971. Shalach.

This is followed by Jethro announcing that he is Moses father in law, [why would he announce himself to Moses that way unless he was making a point?] and has brought his wife and two sons back to him. In effect, Jethro just voided Zipporah’s demand for/statement of divorce and reinstated her back to her husband.

I found it interesting when I was studying the Exodus and the path that the Israelites took once they crossed the Red Sea. They pass very near to Midian, but do not go there. They go around it when it would have been easier to go there. This seems very unusual for a husband and father to ignore his wife and children if he just sent them to her father for their safety. It is not until they are almost to Horeb that Jethro brings them to Moses. It makes me wonder exactly what Zipporah told her father (if anything) when she returned from the inn.
 
Its written different because Zipporah was not guilty of adultery. As such, she was entitled to leave with everything she came into the marriage with. That she left with the children also serves to reinforce my point and discredit yours.

Zipporah didn't divorce him, he didn't divorce her. Nothing in the text says that. She was simply sent to her father, who later brought her back.
 
Zipporah didn't divorce him, he didn't divorce her. Nothing in the text says that. She was simply sent to her father, who later brought her back.
Because you want it to be that way, or because you can explain that from scripture? You’re obviously more than welcome to believe that if you wanna, I don’t buy it.
 
Because it never says he gave her a certificate of divorce, or was ending the relationship, nor does anything in the story point to that possibility. Because after Moses got the people out of Egypt, the father in law brought him his family and was warmly received and then the father went home leaving them with Moses. The whole story fits the idea of a man sending his family to safety when he's about to go into a showdown with the head of a mighty empire and then coming together with them again after the danger has passed. It's exactly what I would have done in his shoes.
 
Nothing in the English translation points to that possibility . . . Except indirectly. The Hebrew is another matter entirely IMO.

And, yes shilluach does say a document of sending away or divorce.
This bold phrase comes from the word shilluwach S7964 and means: a dismissal,(of a wife), divorce (especially the document); also dower (of a daughter) presents

And yet he obviously intended to take them into Egypt with him before he left Midian. At the time of separation, there is no indication that anything has changed regarding either his welcome or his mission in Egypt, therefore no reason to be any more concerned than he’d have been initially.
 
The other issue is that Moses takes the Israelites right past Midian without attempting to contact his family or father in law. I cant think of any reason why a man who’d only sent his family to safety would do something like that.

(I do realize this will open another possible side thread on the route of the Exodus, and I’ll just say that Mt. Sinai is not located where Catherine {Constantine’s mother} said it was located). I don’t have time this morning, but just do a search on Jim and Penny Caldwell and Bob Cornuke about the true location of Sinai in Arabia. Galatians 4:25
 
The other issue is that Moses takes the Israelites right past Midian without attempting to contact his family or father in law. I cant think of any reason why a man who’d only sent his family to safety would do something like that

Yeah... I can see it now.

'Hey, pop!' Just got out of Egypt, thought we'd drop in for a couple days... all 2.5 million of us.'

Nah, reality says a) not reasonable to stop leading and see fil, and b) Scripture is the story of Israel, not Moses.
 
Yeah... I can see it now.

'Hey, pop!' Just got out of Egypt, thought we'd drop in for a couple days... all 2.5 million of us.'

Nah, reality says a) not reasonable to stop leading and see fil, and b) Scripture is the story of Israel, not Moses.
I don’t see why all 2.5 mil of them had to stop in. I’m assuming thats an attempt at levity.

It would be entirely reasonable to collect the wife and kids when you’re passing by within 10 miles or so rather than wait til you’re 30 ish miles away as the crow flies and 80ish the way they went. Especially when you’re encamped within 10ish miles at Elim for at least 3 weeks (per Exodus 16:1) And there’s no indication that Moses was remotely intending to get them.

Disclaimer: I know this isn’t the greatest map, but he’s done a pretty good job of mapping out the route to the real Mt. Sinai.
B1B94536-1E36-4C7A-9EBE-2C47E96EFDD1.png
 
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