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Matthew 19:9 Adultery in unjustified divorce and remarriage

I can think of several topics where information is lacking. For instance,

  1. a Melchizedek priesthood: how to define it, what it looks like, boundaries and expectations, who is qualified to participate and officiate. The differences between it and the Levitical system
  2. Paul’s letter to the Laodiceans
  3. The doctrine of laying on of hands Heb.6
  4. Mentions of Polygamy in the New Testament
  5. Who were the Nicolaitans and the Jezebel in Revelations
  6. What was in the other book Daniel wrote
  7. What was in the other book John wrote
  8. What were the silent Apostle’s perspectives on the life and death of Christ and why do we have nothing written by them.
  9. How did James the brother of Jesus come to have such a prominent position in the Jerusalem church hierarchy when prior to Christs death he is always presented as antagonistic to Christ’s ministry.
  10. Who did Adam and Eve’s sons marry?
  11. Where did Christ spend his silent years and what was he doing?
  12. What happened to Joseph
  13. What did all of the other prophets books referred to in the Old Testament as scripture have to say and why aren’t they still included in the canon?
  14. What are the tribal affiliations of all of the Apostles and why don’t we have this knowledge? (I realize that we have about half)
Some of these aren’t all that important, Some of them I believe to be incredibly important. All of them are lacking in the Canon. I’m sure if I put my mind to it I could think of more.
They're not important. God didn't see the need to tell us then it's not important. What would it mean if He left out stuff we needed? That we have a flawed incomplete scripture? I can't believe that. All of those things might be interesting but they're not important.
 
I do agree with the solution mentioned, most of the time. I’ll just point out that the metaphor that I used with the shepherds is predicated upon the man He entrusted her to failing to or refusing to care for her as God intended. It is further predicated that the succeeding shepherd is not culpable in the separation between them and that God as Master can replace a horrible shepherd with one according to his heart (Jer 3:15) because they had transgressed against God (Jer 2:8) and become brutish and scattered their flocks, and destroyed the vineyard, trodden God’s portion underfoot and made His pleasant portion a desolate wilderness. (Jer 10:21 & 12:10). In some cases this may be visible by God physically removing him permanently as in the case of Nabal. In most cases, however, He has ordained a method that doesnt require the death of the man thats worse than an infidel.

There are three fundamental problems here though.

First, your citation is about priests and the Hebrew nation and not marriage. God wasn't bashful about making laws about marriage yet the scriptures never make that rule for it.

Second, every divorced woman is going to claim the man was a bad husband. If she didn't, she wouldn't have left (which is a scattering and hence self-made proof of a bad shepherd). So in practice this is just a get out of jail free card that justifies all divorces and is the opposite of what Paul commanded in 1 Cor 7:10-11.

Third, that's not the solution God taught. Not only did He not teach that, but when dealing with the worst case (an unbeliever who does not the will of God), the advice is the opposite: stay (1 Cor 7) and set a good example by your behavior (1 Peter 3).
 
They're not important. God didn't see the need to tell us then it's not important. . . . . . . All of those things might be interesting but they're not important.

How do you know they’re not important? Why would you think they are not important? God saw fit to give this information to His people once upon a time. He wouldn’t have done so if it weren’t important. None of us know what information they have (in most cases). This reminds me of the guy on the roof of the house that was waiting on God to save him from the flood. He sent a helicopter, and two boats to save him but the guy defined “God saving him” as something supernatural and so he rejected what God gave because he wasn’t willing to open his eyes and see God’s provision outside of his preconceived ideas.

As to how God makes information available, Scripture says that he uses even the heavens and nature and foolish men and donkeys to teach us things through observation. To say that he doesnt use anything other than a compilation of certain “authorized” texts to teach us IMO is extremely limiting to who He is and what He is capable of. It also borders on the fringe of making God in OUR own image, for instance the phrases I’ve heard you use often, “if God cant do it this way (fill in the blanks) then He cant save my soul, be my God” etc. God can reveal information through any medium, the Canon is just the most trustworthy but even that requires the leading of the Holy Spirit and discernment and study.
 
There are three fundamental problems here though.

First, your citation is about priests and the Hebrew nation and not marriage. God wasn't bashful about making laws about marriage yet the scriptures never make that rule for it.

Second, every divorced woman is going to claim the man was a bad husband. If she didn't, she wouldn't have left (which is a scattering and hence self-made proof of a bad shepherd). So in practice this is just a get out of jail free card that justifies all divorces and is the opposite of what Paul commanded in 1 Cor 7:10-11.

Third, that's not the solution God taught. Not only did He not teach that, but when dealing with the worst case (an unbeliever who does not the will of God), the advice is the opposite: stay (1 Cor 7) and set a good example by your behavior (1 Peter 3).

To the first point, I do agree that contextually the passage is about the Levites as shepherds and pastors and the sheep are the representing the nation or people of Israel. However, the metaphor is equally applicable to multiple types of relationships such as stewards or husbands or even kings. The shepherd/sheep metaphor is utilized by Nathan when he confronts David re: Uriah and Bathsheba.
Also to the last half of the first point, to say that the metaphor I used is a rule is probably setting the bar a bit high, however, the example of a covenant breaking man’s wife serving another as a result of that CB has existed pre Canon apparently (per Job 31) and I ran across a passage in Acts 1:20 that would indicate or support the same principle. “For it is written in the book of Psalms, (69:25) Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. (Judas, an apostate? Unbeliever? Definitely a covenant breaker. Also dead so maybe not applicable though the Psalms account seems to indicate this sentence before Judas’ death)

To the second point, I also agree with the assessment because if she thought she had a good husband she wouldn’t have left, however to categorize all woman initiated divorce under this heading is not accurate and indicates a bias that all husbands are good husbands, neither of which is accurate or reflect reality. There are good women who initiate divorce for IMO Scripturally justifiable reasons against bad husbands. IMO, it is their right to do so if he is a covenant breaker (adulterer) either by physical adultery with another mans wife or for the Exodus 21:11 covenant breaking. IMO the purpose of the Exodus 21 passage is not so that the woman can be “free” forever, as a woman without covering is an unenviable position, but so that she is free to covenant with someone who will perform those three duties and will provide covering.

To the third point, “thats not the solution God taught”, I’d have to disagree for multiple reasons and passages listed here and elsewhere through the thread. Regarding the Ezekiel 34 passage with Israel and their shepherds the Levites, God specifically “officiated” their covenant, but because of their abuse of their position, God specifically states that He will gather the scattered, wounded, lost, driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen or heal that which was sick. He will also place them under a different shepherd (verse 23) that will act according to God’s will and desire. Verse 27 says that they will know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. This passage is succinctly fulfilled in the person of Christ. The Levites weren’t dead at the time of Christ, they were still as abusive if not more so than at the time of Ezekiel’s writings. Because of their covenant breaking and their abuse of their “office”, God removed them from their position and supplied another Shepherd for His flock.

To Pauls “advice”, I’ll just point out that that is the extent of the authority of that “advice”. He doesnt claim any additional authority for his opinion, rather he gives good reasons for why he believes and advises that way. She still has the right to leave the unbelieving husband, it just may be better for the kingdom and her husband if she doesnt. To address the commandment of the Lord mentioned in verse 10 of the same passage, the commandment is regarding believing husbands as Paul differentiates between believing and unbelieving in verse 12, “to the rest speak I not the Lord” and deals with unbelieving spouses. A believing husband will be providing and protecting etc. Any husband who is not doing these cannot be considered to be a believing husband but rather worse than an infidel and as such has no right to claim this commandment of verse 10. If the wife chooses to stay with the covenant breaker anyway that’s her choice. Obviously a woman who divorces a covenant keeping husband (believer or not) is at fault and is not justified in the divorce. She should obviously be reconciled to her husband. A woman who divorces from a covenant breaking “professing” believer IMO should allow the opportunity for him to repent and change so that she can reconcile with him, but not forever (IMO). At some point, she will figure out that he’s not who he claims he is and will move on to find a true believing husband who will provide the covering.

I think that the example given in Ezra of the men putting away their ”unbelieving” wives is something to be considered in this discussion. Ezra interprets the marriage to non Jewish women to be unequally yoked and the cause of God’s judgement. Paul allows it to continue for the purpose of conversion while Ezra it seems has a much more rigid interpretation.
 
God saw fit to give this information to His people once upon a time.
And so He was incapable of delivering it to us? Has He lost some power of the years? Maybe missing a step? A little long in the tooth perhaps? Maybe He just doesn't like us. He doesn't really care if we know or not. Or maybe He's changed. Maybe that's it. Maybe He just doesn't care about the things He used to care about. Whatever it is I hate it that now I have to trust spiritual specialists again to tell me what God really wants of me if He weren't just so darn busy, or unconcerned or doubleminded to tell me Himself.

They're not important because God didn't tell us about them. If they were then He would have. We can trust His Word. We don't need anything else. He wrote it down for a reason. He wrote it down the way He wanted us to have it and He has delivered it to us accurately and completely. Anything less than that is not acceptable to me.
 
Accurately? I can go there for autographia. I’ve seen too much in the way of translator bias to think its 100% accurate in any of the English translations though I think there are a few that come really close.
Completely? No way. Even scripture says it isn’t complete as in every word that God ever gave. Complete for us or for a specific season in history? Sure I can go there.

Whatever His reasons are for not giving us everything in one concise “Canon” I don’t know and wont speculate on but the facts are that the Canon we have today are lacking info on specific topics. The somewhat funny/somewhat frustrating aspect is when trying to converse on a subject with someone who thinks its all there and then has to try to make a complex subject reconcile using only a fraction of the available material on the subject because the rest of it is not in the “Canon” generated by a Roman Catholic council.
 
To the first point, I do agree that contextually the passage is about the Levites as shepherds and pastors and the sheep are the representing the nation or people of Israel. However, the metaphor is equally applicable to multiple types of relationships such as stewards or husbands or even kings. The shepherd/sheep metaphor is utilized by Nathan when he confronts David re: Uriah and Bathsheba.
Also to the last half of the first point, to say that the metaphor I used is a rule is probably setting the bar a bit high, however, the example of a covenant breaking man’s wife serving another as a result of that CB has existed pre Canon apparently (per Job 31) and I ran across a passage in Acts 1:20 that would indicate or support the same principle. “For it is written in the book of Psalms, (69:25) Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. (Judas, an apostate? Unbeliever? Definitely a covenant breaker. Also dead so maybe not applicable though the Psalms account seems to indicate this sentence before Judas’ death)

To the second point, I also agree with the assessment because if she thought she had a good husband she wouldn’t have left, however to categorize all woman initiated divorce under this heading is not accurate and indicates a bias that all husbands are good husbands, neither of which is accurate or reflect reality. There are good women who initiate divorce for IMO Scripturally justifiable reasons against bad husbands. IMO, it is their right to do so if he is a covenant breaker (adulterer) either by physical adultery with another mans wife or for the Exodus 21:11 covenant breaking. IMO the purpose of the Exodus 21 passage is not so that the woman can be “free” forever, as a woman without covering is an unenviable position, but so that she is free to covenant with someone who will perform those three duties and will provide covering.

To the third point, “thats not the solution God taught”, I’d have to disagree for multiple reasons and passages listed here and elsewhere through the thread. Regarding the Ezekiel 34 passage with Israel and their shepherds the Levites, God specifically “officiated” their covenant, but because of their abuse of their position, God specifically states that He will gather the scattered, wounded, lost, driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen or heal that which was sick. He will also place them under a different shepherd (verse 23) that will act according to God’s will and desire. Verse 27 says that they will know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. This passage is succinctly fulfilled in the person of Christ. The Levites weren’t dead at the time of Christ, they were still as abusive if not more so than at the time of Ezekiel’s writings. Because of their covenant breaking and their abuse of their “office”, God removed them from their position and supplied another Shepherd for His flock.

To Pauls “advice”, I’ll just point out that that is the extent of the authority of that “advice”. He doesnt claim any additional authority for his opinion, rather he gives good reasons for why he believes and advises that way. She still has the right to leave the unbelieving husband, it just may be better for the kingdom and her husband if she doesnt. To address the commandment of the Lord mentioned in verse 10 of the same passage, the commandment is regarding believing husbands as Paul differentiates between believing and unbelieving in verse 12, “to the rest speak I not the Lord” and deals with unbelieving spouses. A believing husband will be providing and protecting etc. Any husband who is not doing these cannot be considered to be a believing husband but rather worse than an infidel and as such has no right to claim this commandment of verse 10. If the wife chooses to stay with the covenant breaker anyway that’s her choice. Obviously a woman who divorces a covenant keeping husband (believer or not) is at fault and is not justified in the divorce. She should obviously be reconciled to her husband. A woman who divorces from a covenant breaking “professing” believer IMO should allow the opportunity for him to repent and change so that she can reconcile with him, but not forever (IMO). At some point, she will figure out that he’s not who he claims he is and will move on to find a true believing husband who will provide the covering.

I think that the example given in Ezra of the men putting away their ”unbelieving” wives is something to be considered in this discussion. Ezra interprets the marriage to non Jewish women to be unequally yoked and the cause of God’s judgement. Paul allows it to continue for the purpose of conversion while Ezra it seems has a much more rigid interpretation.
I'm not discussing this with you anymore VV76. I don't believe you are debating in good faith. I just went and reviewed all of the scripture for this and there is no way to come up with the idea that divorce is ever "righteous" or that there are any justified reasons for it. You can't read any of those verses and come up with a way for a woman (and probably even a man) to divorce and be in the right. A woman is bound to her husband for life. If she leaves she must remain single or be reconciled to him. You can't get anything else out of the scripture.

All of your musings, and complex reasonings are only a ruse to get around the clear scripture. You talk about shepherds, priests, Judas, Levites, and everyone else but you just want to gloss over the clear truth; if she leaves him then her only "righteous" option is to remain single. And yes I know that's hard but a lot of things in the faith are hard. We're called to die if need be. This is the great danger with your obsession with extra-biblical sources. Eventually you will find something that says what you want to hear and the temptation to elevate that above Scripture will be overwhelming. You're already far down that road now by trying to use indirect ideas and principles to come up with a path to your goal. You construct a covenant out of whole cloth, then you torture a "violation" of the fictional covenant and voila you have a woman who can divorce her husband and remarry, in clear violation of the Bible. This is dangerous and it will backfire on you.
 
Accurately? I can go there for autographia. I’ve seen too much in the way of translator bias to think its 100% accurate in any of the English translations though I think there are a few that come really close.
Completely? No way. Even scripture says it isn’t complete as in every word that God ever gave. Complete for us or for a specific season in history? Sure I can go there.

Whatever His reasons are for not giving us everything in one concise “Canon” I don’t know and wont speculate on but the facts are that the Canon we have today are lacking info on specific topics. The somewhat funny/somewhat frustrating aspect is when trying to converse on a subject with someone who thinks its all there and then has to try to make a complex subject reconcile using only a fraction of the available material on the subject because the rest of it is not in the “Canon” generated by a Roman Catholic council.
Then you and I are very far apart and indeed and there is no need for us to waste each other's time with discussions. I look forward to fellowshipping with you at the next retreat but I can't imagine that anything I have to say about spiritual matters would be of any interest to you.
 
I'm not discussing this with you anymore VV76. I don't believe you are debating in good faith. I just went and reviewed all of the scripture for this and there is no way to come up with the idea that divorce is ever "righteous" or that there are any justified reasons for it. You can't read any of those verses and come up with a way for a woman (and probably even a man) to divorce and be in the right. A woman is bound to her husband for life. If she leaves she must remain single or be reconciled to him. You can't get anything else out of the scripture.

All of your musings, and complex reasonings are only a ruse to get around the clear scripture. You talk about shepherds, priests, Judas, Levites, and everyone else but you just want to gloss over the clear truth; if she leaves him then her only "righteous" option is to remain single. And yes I know that's hard but a lot of things in the faith are hard. We're called to die if need be. This is the great danger with your obsession with extra-biblical sources. Eventually you will find something that says what you want to hear and the temptation to elevate that above Scripture will be overwhelming. You're already far down that road now by trying to use indirect ideas and principles to come up with a path to your goal. You construct a covenant out of whole cloth, then you torture a "violation" of the fictional covenant and voila you have a woman who can divorce her husband and remarry, in clear violation of the Bible. This is dangerous and it will backfire on you.

For the record, my only goal is to have the mind of Christ on this or any subject. Though at times I am prone to playing Devil’s Advocate this is not one of those times or subjects. I am simply presenting perspectives that have been brought to my attention. It is possible that I am wrong on this perspective. IF that is the case then I will no doubt give an account for being wrong if I ever choose to be “that” man. OTOH if I am right and you fail to provide covering for one that God brings you, then you will be the one giving account. In either situation, each of us will give account individually for what we’ve done with what He’s given.

I think that both of us grew up with very similar “religious” backgrounds and instruction from what I can tell from conversations and posts. Much of what you post I can relate to in so many ways and I know where you are coming from. My issue is that I have just read and studied too much Biblically and historically to ever be able to accept some of these arguments as valid and absolute. I’m ok with you or anyone walking in the light that you’ve received and would expect nothing less even if it is at odds with where I am because we are all where we are, when we are there due to Leading and Light. I just cannot go against light that has been given to me and will not pretend to just for the sake of conformity.
 
Well it's pretty easy to have the mind of Christ. He told us exactly what He thought.

Not sure I agree here. While I do believe God gave us everything he desired to and also that he has preserved it as he promised. I do not think it's easy to have the mind of Christ. If it were there would be very little for us to be debating on this forum... Just my thoughts on it.
 
Not sure I agree here. While I do believe God gave us everything he desired to and also that he has preserved it as he promised. I do not think it's easy to have the mind of Christ. If it were there would be very little for us to be debating on this forum... Just my thoughts on it.
It's not easy (possible) to conform ourselves to the pattern Christ set. But we can know His mind. He communicated very clearly with us.
 
I found another mention of the non-existent covenant, also provided by the Lord re: Israel. This one has more details about the courting, kiddushin, covenant, betrothal and terms of the covenant.

Hosea 2:14-20
Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.
And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
 
I also see in Hosea where God commands Hosea to take a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms. (A harlot with children) Then he has 3 children with her and she begins to seek out her lovers again. Chapter 2:7 talks about her wanting to return to her first husband and verse 9 talks about Hosea taking away the wool and flax that was given her to cover her nakedness. Chapter 3 talks about how the Lord tells him to go and love an adulteress, and he buys her for some silver and grain and covenants with her that she will abide for him and not have another man.

This is one of those passages that I’d really like for someone to be able to reconcile for me. As best I can tell, it totally throws all the rules out the window. Hosea is commanded to marry a wife of whoredoms that has apparently had a first husband and he either put her away for her covenant breaking or she did it after he put her away or both, then she bears him 3 kids and decides to find her lovers again and when he walls her in she decides she’d rather return to her first husband. The next woman is listed as an adulteress and harlot and Hosea is told to marry her so he pays for her and covenants with her and were not sure if he sleeps with her although it seems to indicate this.

So the long and short of it is that Hosea is married to two women who were previously married and considered whores or harlots or adultresses. By command of God.
 
I found another mention of the non-existent covenant, also provided by the Lord re: Israel. This one has more details about the courting, kiddushin, covenant, betrothal and terms of the covenant.

Hosea 2:14-20
Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.
And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
It doesn't sound like that covenant makes a marriage. He get's betrothed right after that and we know from Deuteronomy that a betrothal isn't a marriage yet. So it's a covenant, but I never said there weren't covenants. I never said that you couldn't make covenants with a woman who you are going to marry. I said covenants don't make marriages. I see nothing to the contrary here.
 
I also see in Hosea where God commands Hosea to take a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms. (A harlot with children) Then he has 3 children with her and she begins to seek out her lovers again. Chapter 2:7 talks about her wanting to return to her first husband and verse 9 talks about Hosea taking away the wool and flax that was given her to cover her nakedness. Chapter 3 talks about how the Lord tells him to go and love an adulteress, and he buys her for some silver and grain and covenants with her that she will abide for him and not have another man.

This is one of those passages that I’d really like for someone to be able to reconcile for me. As best I can tell, it totally throws all the rules out the window. Hosea is commanded to marry a wife of whoredoms that has apparently had a first husband and he either put her away for her covenant breaking or she did it after he put her away or both, then she bears him 3 kids and decides to find her lovers again and when he walls her in she decides she’d rather return to her first husband. The next woman is listed as an adulteress and harlot and Hosea is told to marry her so he pays for her and covenants with her and were not sure if he sleeps with her although it seems to indicate this.

So the long and short of it is that Hosea is married to two women who were previously married and considered whores or harlots or adultresses. By command of God.

It means God is not in the box most believers try to put Him in. Did someone say, monogamy is God's preferred method of relationship?

Wonder what else we get wrong?
 
Just a friendly shoe for whomever it fits: Directly or indirectly insulting the intelligence or character of people who disagree with you dilutes your argument and comes across as self-indulgent. If you don't care, I don't care, but I thought I'd mention it. Carry on!
 
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