Probably not, since Christ was in the verse used, means NT and a lesser life span. Lol
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It is shameful for a woman to be uncovered
- Thread starter PeteR
- Start date
mi-tzalotav litteraly one of his sides
I've heard this before, and that Eve was made from Adam's Angular Apendege bone, why men don't have bones in our penises.
Origins of the hermaphrodite Adam teachings that I found
In the Haggadah
...In all the parallel passages in the Talmud, the opinion of Samuel b. Naḥman alone prevails, for we find regularly Adam(bifrons, double-fronted), as, for example: 'Er. 18a, Ber. 61a, etc. (Jastrow, "Dict." s.v., p. 304, 1)....
I won't get into the Gnostic teachings, I'll just focus on the midrash.
I'm aware of it; it was in my mind as I wrote about the Greek legend because they are the same story. It's one of those perspectives that usually is more of an "oh interesting" midrash than a "oh this has some effect on the biblical interpretation" midrash.
There's a midrash that a Rabbi was running along Israel and he couldn't find the end of a long bone, and it was allegedly Og's Femor. This is the same kind of midrash that Kev mentinioned. The way I learned this midrash was that Adam was asexual, not that he was a "hermaphrodite".
It's one of the examples of Greek helenistic thought affecting Judaism (as you mentioned gnosticism).... So the source is STILL Greece....That's why I didn't bother to bring up his midrash; it's a Greek midrash adopted by Helenistic Judaism.
The one point of departure is that one would think we'd be happy to be hermaphroditic; the Greeks claim the gods were jealous and that's why they split us up; not sure why Hashem would say "it's not good for man to be alone" if we weren't really "alone" having our partner stitched in our angular organ with us.
Note for others: the words copied (the image that looks like Hebrew) aren't Hebrew words; they're Aramaic; there's no relation to the tsela' of which the bible discusses, in Hebrew (his quotation from Jastrow was appropriate since he was dealing with Aramaic material).
I'm very interested if anyone has any kind of linguistic evidence, however, for this bizarre "angular organ" translation since none of the Hebrew Lexicons even hint at this.
So basically, all those Hebrew resources I listed for you guys the other day.
None of them say "angular organ". none
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@IshChayil a shift in topic... your translation is very interesting as it prompts a question. I have heard several teach that the Genesis 1 creation account of man is different than the Genesis 2 account and that it actually hints at Chavah being a second bride. One teacher I heard speculated that the first was Lilith.... Care to expound on 'this time...this one will be called...'
Shabbat shalom!
I think Adam is referring to the animals which Hashem brought to him to name. We have a midrash that teaches that Adam cuddled with many of the animals which he named and none were found endearing to him.
Now, from Adam's juvenile perspective, it seems to him as if Hashem has brought him another potential mate, hence "ah this time...." a match!
The Lillith she-demon midrash I find less plausible than the animal-cuddling midrash. Ibn-Ezra's got my back on this one; he discounts the Lilith story as "just a midrash" while seemingly accepting the one I shared as "common knowledge"
Shabbat shalom!
In other words, it was a late interpretation.
It is useful to note here that hermaphrodites are an obsession of the occult. I don't know enough to accurately summarize it but I get the sense that their god and their ideal are hermaphroditic.
You could take that as an indication of the satanic origin of this. Or as another example of the occult seeking to undue what God has done.
@IshChayil, generally speaking I am eager to read your postings, because it is clear that you do a lot of research. I have addressed the above comment to you in a private conversation, but I believe it is also important to do so within the context of this forum thread, because otherwise this end comment of yours that I have quoted from 10:01am will just stand here as if it is entirely legitimate. I do recognize that you have worded it as a request as opposed to a demand, but it simply isn't your place to manage how your fellow Biblical Families members speak about our Father. While I myself respect your right to engage in actualizing whatever your own religious beliefs and practices are, it is not within your rights on a forum open to all members of the Body of Christ to expect anyone else to adhere to your beliefs or practices -- or even to make public requests that others do so. Making a request like that smacks of shaming.
I too have heard of asexual Adam, never hermaphrodite Adam. That was a new one.
I have no linguistic evidence to offer. I have trouble just with English (American).
Was it addressed to everyone, or just Kevin? I will let @IshChayil speak for himself, but it seemed to me like he was asking a person (Kevin) who seems to be of a similar mind and committed to study of Torah to follow a certain code, not others. I may be wrong, but we shall see.
Nobody meant to shame you Keith; I thought i was polite in my request.
I nicely you asked you to please consider not spelling out G-d's name. I didn't know that was so hard to not do. I make cultural accommodations for Koreans, Chinese, and Filippinos all the time. When I was in the states I did the same for Vietnamese, Mexicans, and Russians. I just assumed most Americans were used to minor accomodations and no biggie; especially christians.
Anyway, it's recorded in Shamayim that your brother asked you to not do it and you refused b/c you felt "shamed".
Sorry if I made you feel bad though, I didn't think it would make you feel that way and was utterly not my intent to embaress you (look at me I can't even spell embaress ! If anyone should be ashamed it's me).
Anyway, I'm quite sorry for any public embaressment (look at me again, can't even spell at all!).
The moderator has moved any discussion (including my responses to you Keith about this issue which I didn't think would be moved) to the Why Jews don't say the sacred name of G-d and neither did the disciples and its not in the entire New Testament thread so if you want to have that discussion guys it's over there. THere's already a lot of thought that's been put into it by me and many others (on both sides of the fence). Good discussion over there, aging nicely.
Many neat tidbits including taht the creatures in Revelation don't even say G-d's name they call him El Shadai!
shalom, sorry for ruffled feathers.
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Without reading every single post reply. I will say this and this is from my personal experience. I didn't have a father who took the role as head for whatever reason. Nor did I have a brother who took that role.
So as a single woman without a head I looked to Yeshua as my head. Building a relationship with Him, listening to His guidance and direction I was lead to cover with cloth my head in reverence and a symbol of my submission to Him, my head.
So since this is a board about single issues I say this in response to @PeteR thought "it is shameful for a woman not to be covered" If the woman has no father or brother it is her responsibility to learn to submit to the Heavenly Father Yahweh. Yahweh appointed Yeshua to guide the flock did He not? A woman is a part of the flock so there is my Father and my Brother as my head. The flesh wants flesh there is no replacement for Yahs design. So it is the job of Yahweh to supply for the needs of his daughters.
In this day and age, the condition of the world it is harder for many not just women to submit to His authority and design.
The woman without a flesh and blood head is not evil, but what has kept her from obtaining that headship may be evil.
So as a single woman without a head I looked to Yeshua as my head. Building a relationship with Him, listening to His guidance and direction I was lead to cover with cloth my head in reverence and a symbol of my submission to Him, my head.
So since this is a board about single issues I say this in response to @PeteR thought "it is shameful for a woman not to be covered" If the woman has no father or brother it is her responsibility to learn to submit to the Heavenly Father Yahweh. Yahweh appointed Yeshua to guide the flock did He not? A woman is a part of the flock so there is my Father and my Brother as my head. The flesh wants flesh there is no replacement for Yahs design. So it is the job of Yahweh to supply for the needs of his daughters.
In this day and age, the condition of the world it is harder for many not just women to submit to His authority and design.
The woman without a flesh and blood head is not evil, but what has kept her from obtaining that headship may be evil.
Thank you, and I agree with your post.. I fully acknowledged in the OP that in our time and culture, it may not be the woman's fault. And, yes, the Father has to be that covering, but as we come to a more Biblical understanding, we should realize more and more the plight of the single lady and how we should view it such that we seek to cover her so that she no longer be in that state.
I'm not saying single women should feel shame (though that was the case in Israel), rather I believe because men, largely, have created that situtation through false monogamy only teaching and sugar-daddy gubment, we need to recognize it and remedy it because I would guess the Father transfers the shame onto us, the guilty parties.
BF is in the business of seeking change, one heart and mind at a time, but the Body at large needs to understand this dynamic and truth from the Word. WE have created a bad situation through adding a false monogamy only standard of righteousness.
M
MontanaDaniel
Guest
Firstly, I am in awe and hold high praise for so much of the thoughtful, genuine biblical knowledge and consideration found (pretty much everywhere) on this site, which far exceeds my own, and this thread is not exception. I learn so much everytime I log in and read, thank you all for the frank discussions and theological dissemination. And while I could quote and requote many passages I agreed with and wanted to reiterate on, in this case I figured I would give my own practical "two cents" on the matter from a man who has had recent "boots on the ground" experience in this matter.
Currently in the Seattle area for the last 11 odd years and having grown up in the SF Bay Area (I would NOT have grown up or lived in these liberal cities had I been able to choose for myself, but that is where God chose to place the start of my life so I defer to His plan for me, while also grateful to free will since I am in the process of preparing a permanent move to Montana), I can thus speak somewhat authoritatively to where the mind of modern woman is at, atheist or even Christian, at least as far as mainstream America has become, by having intently observed it and experienced it all around me for so long (and this is also a big part of why I've chosen this biblical poly way of life and am moving a couple redder states over, away from WA...).
The biblical truth is, absolute yes, a woman should NEVER be "uncovered" (in the sense of being under a male headship of one kind or another, I dont think most of you have been talking about literal head-scarves here) which goes quadruply true if that female is at all youthful with any marriageable/child-bearing years left in her. Biblically, and especially with a polygynous perspective as well, any young woman should (all the while giving her heart to God's keeping) always be in the direct care, keep, service, and submission to a male headship, whether while she and her father prepare her for marriage or while she is already married and securely residing in her husband's home where she belongs and to where/whom she is mortally bound, whereupon thereafter she should stay domestically bound in order to serve and please her man happily alongside her sisterwives, tend home and husband, reproduce fruitfully and tend children. There is no doubt this is the proper Christian female role and purpose in life, and she should always be glad to accept it and meet it as best she can, focusing on her feminine skills, beauty and preparations for wifehood and motherhood.
And likewise it is the stout duty of all good Christian men, especially polygamous males, to hold all Christian women accountable to this truth and help females to uphold it. Some here have made decent arguments that if an older woman somehow finds herself single (older widow, etc) then if she can maintain her living situation without male stewardship over her to provide, then perhaps it suffices for her to take refuge in the church and service to the Lord and in communion with her remaining family for her remaining years, and that seems valid, however even then in that perfectly excusable situation, is there not a family home of her own tribe that she could ask to rejoin with an established patriarch willing to house her, in order to help younger wives and mothers to assist them in their daily wifely duties, to help teach them how to be better, happier, more productive and more submissive women? Surely also this is the role of older women, even widows or great-grannies left alone. Well ok, perhaps there is some wiggle room in the extreme outliers, considering all possible situations of what may happen in a woman's lifetime, but to be fair, they are few.
But back to modern women, and now with the easier and more comforting biblical truth already disseminated, we spiral down into the grittiness of the matter at hand...
The cold hard truth is modern women in today's America (not 100% maybe but in grossly dominant percentages, and especially in any medium-large city) don't care a mouse's toot for actual femininity, or being good wives and mothers, or being "sweet and endearing", and "kind and charitable". Don't get me wrong, they may often look or sound the part, in glimpses here and there. And no, I'm not biased, I don't have a grudge, I don't resent women... I LOVE women, and I LOVE and ADORE femininity, in its pure divine essence. But this is just the truth, at least as I see it and have experienced. Women today see themselves much as men do, albeit prettier, better-dressed, chattier, more social and smiling men. But still nonetheless possessing far more masculine spirit than a feminine one. They want to work, be independent, have highly evolved careers or academic lives, be able to hop in their own car anytime they want and meet their girlfriends for "cosmos at Applebees" before "going to that new concert in town". They are still women, they care about appearances and not LOOKING rude, but deep down they don't really care about being virtuous, proper, respectful, innocent-hearted old fashioned gals. Are you kidding me?? Nu-uh. MOST girls in today's America go through high school wanting to have fun, socialize, travel, fill their instagrams and facebook walls with amazing pictures of themselves and their friends doing "kewl stuff", have boyfriends and flings, drink, do light drugs (many girls choose heavy drugs and heavy drinking, unfortunately, especially here in the Seattle area but plenty elsewhere around the country) and of course the big one, CASUAL SEX. Are all women sluts nowadays? No. But that is just to say that neither are all men "sluts" either. And that's exactly the point, by being like the boys, more or less, modern girls are committing no sins in the eyes of society, since they are "equal"! They're on birth control, so why not have a little fun. Men are expendable, especially with online dating. Another man is just a wink, right-swipe, or reply away, and there's a never-ending supply of them willing to go on a date.
They they go to college, or they just start working random jobs young while they live in an apartment by themselves and perhaps a couple girlfriend (or even co-ed) roomates, while they continue to plan and indulge in adventures and bar-hopping, doing "fun" random things around the cities they live in, working to pay their way through it, and all the while encouraging each other in a huge socially demographic, generation-wide anthem for all of their peers to do the same. Are all girls nowadays therefore evil and reprehensible? No, not at all, most of them are just average, ordinary girls. But see, that's the concerning part... that all of this has indeed, become the average, ordinary norm. And yes, these habits and trends apply to many outwardly looking "innocent and chaste" Christian girls too. If all of this sounds suspiciously familiarly like the truth of the matter out there today... its probably, intuitively and factually, because it actually is.
So there is the biblical truth of what God calls for, and then there is the practical truth of what is happening around us today all around. I am only 33 but I am also historically aware enough and well studied to know... this ain't your great-grandmomma's backwater Alabama church town generation we're talkin about. Those old-fashioned, feminine, submissive, marriage-minded, male-headship-respecting females may be more numerous in the Midwest and in the South in smaller towns to this day, sure, but unfortunately due to the almost complete infiltration and disruption that digital media has had on society and the youth in the last couple decades even in any of those previously "protected" subculture pockets, these types of biblical girls are becoming increasingly rare. Which I suppose makes our mission as biblical polygamous men all the more important to convert and marry as many "regular" Christian women by showing and revealing to them God's true intent for them as His daughters.
So in conclusion, should all females be living under a male head's roof and authority, whether that be her father preparing her for marriage or already married, afterwhich she may remain at home serving the man and his home and focusing primarily on worshipping God and making babies (and delicious pies) while wearing lipstick, immaculate hair, a high skirt and an inviting warm smile? Absolutely!
Does this truth matter to 98.8% (my scientifically best-estimated number) of all the living females living in America today? Absolutely not.
At least for me, this puts a sobering imperative to my (and the greater "our") mission here...
Currently in the Seattle area for the last 11 odd years and having grown up in the SF Bay Area (I would NOT have grown up or lived in these liberal cities had I been able to choose for myself, but that is where God chose to place the start of my life so I defer to His plan for me, while also grateful to free will since I am in the process of preparing a permanent move to Montana), I can thus speak somewhat authoritatively to where the mind of modern woman is at, atheist or even Christian, at least as far as mainstream America has become, by having intently observed it and experienced it all around me for so long (and this is also a big part of why I've chosen this biblical poly way of life and am moving a couple redder states over, away from WA...).
The biblical truth is, absolute yes, a woman should NEVER be "uncovered" (in the sense of being under a male headship of one kind or another, I dont think most of you have been talking about literal head-scarves here) which goes quadruply true if that female is at all youthful with any marriageable/child-bearing years left in her. Biblically, and especially with a polygynous perspective as well, any young woman should (all the while giving her heart to God's keeping) always be in the direct care, keep, service, and submission to a male headship, whether while she and her father prepare her for marriage or while she is already married and securely residing in her husband's home where she belongs and to where/whom she is mortally bound, whereupon thereafter she should stay domestically bound in order to serve and please her man happily alongside her sisterwives, tend home and husband, reproduce fruitfully and tend children. There is no doubt this is the proper Christian female role and purpose in life, and she should always be glad to accept it and meet it as best she can, focusing on her feminine skills, beauty and preparations for wifehood and motherhood.
And likewise it is the stout duty of all good Christian men, especially polygamous males, to hold all Christian women accountable to this truth and help females to uphold it. Some here have made decent arguments that if an older woman somehow finds herself single (older widow, etc) then if she can maintain her living situation without male stewardship over her to provide, then perhaps it suffices for her to take refuge in the church and service to the Lord and in communion with her remaining family for her remaining years, and that seems valid, however even then in that perfectly excusable situation, is there not a family home of her own tribe that she could ask to rejoin with an established patriarch willing to house her, in order to help younger wives and mothers to assist them in their daily wifely duties, to help teach them how to be better, happier, more productive and more submissive women? Surely also this is the role of older women, even widows or great-grannies left alone. Well ok, perhaps there is some wiggle room in the extreme outliers, considering all possible situations of what may happen in a woman's lifetime, but to be fair, they are few.
But back to modern women, and now with the easier and more comforting biblical truth already disseminated, we spiral down into the grittiness of the matter at hand...
The cold hard truth is modern women in today's America (not 100% maybe but in grossly dominant percentages, and especially in any medium-large city) don't care a mouse's toot for actual femininity, or being good wives and mothers, or being "sweet and endearing", and "kind and charitable". Don't get me wrong, they may often look or sound the part, in glimpses here and there. And no, I'm not biased, I don't have a grudge, I don't resent women... I LOVE women, and I LOVE and ADORE femininity, in its pure divine essence. But this is just the truth, at least as I see it and have experienced. Women today see themselves much as men do, albeit prettier, better-dressed, chattier, more social and smiling men. But still nonetheless possessing far more masculine spirit than a feminine one. They want to work, be independent, have highly evolved careers or academic lives, be able to hop in their own car anytime they want and meet their girlfriends for "cosmos at Applebees" before "going to that new concert in town". They are still women, they care about appearances and not LOOKING rude, but deep down they don't really care about being virtuous, proper, respectful, innocent-hearted old fashioned gals. Are you kidding me?? Nu-uh. MOST girls in today's America go through high school wanting to have fun, socialize, travel, fill their instagrams and facebook walls with amazing pictures of themselves and their friends doing "kewl stuff", have boyfriends and flings, drink, do light drugs (many girls choose heavy drugs and heavy drinking, unfortunately, especially here in the Seattle area but plenty elsewhere around the country) and of course the big one, CASUAL SEX. Are all women sluts nowadays? No. But that is just to say that neither are all men "sluts" either. And that's exactly the point, by being like the boys, more or less, modern girls are committing no sins in the eyes of society, since they are "equal"! They're on birth control, so why not have a little fun. Men are expendable, especially with online dating. Another man is just a wink, right-swipe, or reply away, and there's a never-ending supply of them willing to go on a date.
They they go to college, or they just start working random jobs young while they live in an apartment by themselves and perhaps a couple girlfriend (or even co-ed) roomates, while they continue to plan and indulge in adventures and bar-hopping, doing "fun" random things around the cities they live in, working to pay their way through it, and all the while encouraging each other in a huge socially demographic, generation-wide anthem for all of their peers to do the same. Are all girls nowadays therefore evil and reprehensible? No, not at all, most of them are just average, ordinary girls. But see, that's the concerning part... that all of this has indeed, become the average, ordinary norm. And yes, these habits and trends apply to many outwardly looking "innocent and chaste" Christian girls too. If all of this sounds suspiciously familiarly like the truth of the matter out there today... its probably, intuitively and factually, because it actually is.
So there is the biblical truth of what God calls for, and then there is the practical truth of what is happening around us today all around. I am only 33 but I am also historically aware enough and well studied to know... this ain't your great-grandmomma's backwater Alabama church town generation we're talkin about. Those old-fashioned, feminine, submissive, marriage-minded, male-headship-respecting females may be more numerous in the Midwest and in the South in smaller towns to this day, sure, but unfortunately due to the almost complete infiltration and disruption that digital media has had on society and the youth in the last couple decades even in any of those previously "protected" subculture pockets, these types of biblical girls are becoming increasingly rare. Which I suppose makes our mission as biblical polygamous men all the more important to convert and marry as many "regular" Christian women by showing and revealing to them God's true intent for them as His daughters.
So in conclusion, should all females be living under a male head's roof and authority, whether that be her father preparing her for marriage or already married, afterwhich she may remain at home serving the man and his home and focusing primarily on worshipping God and making babies (and delicious pies) while wearing lipstick, immaculate hair, a high skirt and an inviting warm smile? Absolutely!
Does this truth matter to 98.8% (my scientifically best-estimated number) of all the living females living in America today? Absolutely not.
At least for me, this puts a sobering imperative to my (and the greater "our") mission here...
Can you please explain to a mature single woman who does cover with cloth what you mean by this?
Welcome again, Mountain Man Dan, from one loquacious individual to another. I just read your entire post here in this thread (twice, in fact). I don't share all of your conclusions but you do make many great points. Again, I would differ on some of your prescriptions, as well as some of your assumptions about what creates what, but I can't argue with your description of much of the dysfunction in our society.
I predict that you will inspire some lively debates here at Biblical Families. I am, however, going to go out on a limb by encouraging you to consider whether formulating lengthy albeit eloquent analyses and advisories will produce what you want to accomplish. Just a suggestion, but keep in mind that there is a tremendous distinction between knowing and being. You clearly know a lot. You've observed a lot. And you've come to potentially useful conclusions. However, our own individual minds can have a tendency to be echo chambers. Things can sound grand bouncing around in our brains, and then if we bring those grand designs to online chat we are effectively depositing an echo chamber inside of another echo chamber, because a great deal of what constitutes the discussions is simply untested thoughts tossed into the intellectual ring. That is why, on your introduction page, I asked you if you'd be attending this month's retreat. Life exists in the living of it, and the retreat s(with real people interacting with other real people) are a tremendous support for living the life to which you aspire or even for the aspiration itself.
I very much enjoy participating on the Biblical Families forums, but they are far removed from what happens at the retreats. Some of the people here at the web site are almost entirely anonymous, so they may be thoroughly 'engaged,' as it were, in raucous discussion, but the question remains if they will ever be there to look you in the eye as you describe your frustrations, heartaches, joys or triumphs. Some here function simply as pot-stirrers. Others have a singular focus on particular sub-issues that matter greatly to them but don't really touch on the day-to-day matters of what it means to be a patriarch or to improve the success of plural families.
My choice of what part of your post to quote (above) was purposeful. I hear you loud and clear that you have a grand master plan to initiate a tribe that will produce increasing numbers of young women who will make great wives for polygynous men. By itself, such a desire is harmless and even perhaps laudable, but prepare yourself for the fact that implementing such a plan is going to be far more difficult, extensive, frustrating and labor intensive than the tasks you've already contemplated -- because, while you adore women in their divine essence, you're unlikely to persuade any angels to participate as sister wives in your proposed scenario. Instead, you're going to continue to cross paths with women who have been affected by the very societal dynamics you've articulated. And, on top of that, besides not being divine, they're going to be just as broken as the rest of us.
Even the daughters you produce will not be immune to being persuaded by the culture outside the walls of your family compound. That horse has left the barn. No amount of suppression is going to prevent your daughters from finding out that there's a whole big world out there.
There's nothing wrong with Thinking Big, @MontanaDaniel, but implementing Big by necessity has to start with Acting Small. Right now it's probably time to prepare yourself for being the leader of just one woman. If you ever end up with a family populated by hundreds of granddaughters intent on becoming sister wives, the practice you received with your first wife will be foundationally crucial.
M
MontanaDaniel
Guest
Well there's a few ways to slice that, but first to give some context from the good book:
Titus 2:1-15
But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. ...
In that one verse there can be seen the clear difference between what Christianity expects of women of different ages. This is a very ancient, long-observed and wizened religion after all, it has since the times the Bible was composed been aware of the human lifecycle and the part that God's nature plays on the changing and morphing loop from birth to death. We all certainly go through stages in our lifetime, just as I am about to leave one and enter another when I move states to start my family.
So I can't be quiiitttte sure whether you're asking that literally for a better explanation, or if you're standing with your scarf and a 6-shooter by the dirt road in front of the saloon at noon haha, but I will stand by what I said originally. God's intent for younger women seems to be somewhat attenuated compared to mature ladies of the faith relative to the practical biology at play at various stages of a woman's life-cycle, for obvious reasons... and reflected by the same sound advice proffered forth in Titus 2.
M
MontanaDaniel
Guest
So much good advice you took the time to write me... I rarely hear from well, nobody in real life, and especially concerning these taboo subjects I have honestly never been able to speak about with anyone until signing up to be a member here. I'm almost a little speechless (I said almost...) at not only the content sir, but just the gesture of it. Thank you. Sure, I have good friends, I have a bit of family here (though mostly spread out everywhere in the US), and Ive always gotten along well with neighbors because the word "neighborly" is not intended as a Cartesian geographic locator... but the point is, my life experience growing up in the West Coast between Cali and WA so far is that most people here don't seem to ever bother to extend a hand of their own wisdom, time, energy and yes neighborly love to impart it to those who need a good perspective, since frankly, color me jaded and disappointed with modern mainstream society (especially on this liberal coast) but I've always gotten the distinct impression people just don't care that much about others. Doesn't mean Im soured on humanity at large, I'm still an optimist and a follower of Christ who apparently had alot in common with the Beatles (all you need is love...). And so advice like yours is a rarity for me, means alot. Just, again, makes me glad to be here with you folks.
C0uldn't agree more, and I appreciate you reminding me of that, it will help me to "slow my roll" just a tad and temper some of the verbose puppy-tail excitement I am guilty of here at finally getting to talk about and discuss these ideas that have literally been bouncing around my head for... more than a decade now, and not infrequently either, but without any outlet whatsoever. So maybe it's all sort of gushing out in a torrent at first. But per your words, I think part of the excitement is that for me I will be living this life very soon, and I will be attending multiple retreats a year as soon as I'm able to integrate with like-minded people. That is my intent, because what you're talking about is hitting the nail on the head: that's a huge motivation for this big personal evolution for me, is I am SO tired of just thinking and simulating these things out in my head yet living in a part of the country where none of it is resonated back and where I would always be swimming disastrously against the current if I tried to make it work for me here. So I have to move to MT, my life (spiritually and mentally) depends on it, and I have to follow biblical polygyny, and along the same vein I therefore have to be part of a good community like this both online and in person, otherwise I and my family will most likely always be far more isolated than we deserve to be. I have tons still to learn but I embrace it, this new life-degree I've applied to study and live out is exactly the medicine I need and want.
haha, loving the angel persuasion sentence there. Gold. I hear ya. No, I'm no armchair romancer, I've had plenty of relationships so far to teach me about real women, and I'm certainly not expecting perfection. What I was trying to say in my post is that I love women because they are female and feminine in every way as intended by their original design but not just in poetic imagination but I love women in their real manifestation, fallen and human as we all are, however it has become a curse of the modern world that its apparently bent on stripping girls of exactly this sanctified and beloved aspect of how God created them, to form them as they grow up in our society from these sweet feminine spirits God originally endows them all with into... something else. Still women, but just not quite the natural/Godly version intended for them, there is definitely plenty of corruption at multiple levels messing with them in drastic ways along the way. But yes, I will have to settle for real, breathing, imperfect girls if I can't woo any of the winged variety to shack up with me, I am aware of that.
One thing though, as much as I appreciate all your good words, is I will stand up for something... Humility goes a long way (and aint gonna lie, I could use more of it) but I will stand firm on my plans and ambitions. As far as the move to MT, the future property and large home there, well we do live in a world where enough money can purchase you what you need, and so long as i can keep plying my trade and working hard that will be no problem to achieve. Finding the right women, yes, definitely a challenge, but I know they are out there and I have unblinking confident faith in the Lord's plan for me that so long as I do my part and put in the time and legwork and effort and love to find them, He will meet me halfway and provide. And it will be tons of hard work with unending challenges along the way, but just as my earlier comment about how I am only too glad to become a forever-student of this new life I'm choosing, any and all problems/challenges/setbacks along the way are for me quite welcome problems to have. But I will always continue to hold true to my plans and vision for my future family, I think they are doable, and biblically sound, honoring not only the women I end up with and the daughters and sons I raise in this way, but most of all honoring the Creator by doing so, and every step along the way I secure will only make me more determined to stick to my guns and proceed with the following steps after to the letter of the word as intended.
I think it's all too easy to compromise in all these little and seemingly innocuous ways as you go- with women, in marriage, in the structure of the home, in raising children in the modern world, etc- that by the time you're years down the road and into the thick of it, maybe a man might realize all those little slips and lazy give-ins and battles chosen not to be fought actually added up to compromising a huge aspect of the original vision and the primary goal to begin with. For example, many men might be enthralled to finally have secured a few wives for himself in reality, and all of them of good worth and quality... but then when it comes to actually implementing order and harmony in daily life and establishing a true biblical vision in their home as the head of the household ought to lay the foundation for early and always maintain, as you mentioned in your reply might be the tough part, that many men might hold back and compromise too much with their wives, owing to their "modern influences" from whatever corner they were raised in. So that's where I say: Not in my home. Yes I will love, I will listen, I will laugh and work the leather off my back for them, I will ensure happiness all around whenever I can... but I will also lead my home and my women strongly and unswervingly from what I know to be right, and my wives and daughters will absolutely know their place to a T living and growing up in my home.
But I dont want to be a tyrant or servant-master so I will also make sure they will be happy and well romanced and appreciated and supported and love life, by getting back in touch with their femininity and realizing that being a biblical sisterwife and being female is an absolute joy, to embrace it, to live it and love it. But I will not yield or compromise even an inch on how I implement the rule and culture of my home just because the real world is messy and "people are people" and the women I'm likely to find have already been "influenced too much" by the outside. In fact that's why I'm seeking my wives to be as young as legally possible, every one of them 18 if I could have my way, and i say that without any shame, literally zero. I know in my soul that if I can find very young girls who are God-fearing and have true fundamental Christian hearts, and whether by pre-existing background or my own successful persuasion can ensure they are also polygamous and agree to the lifestyle, then I know that with God's help and a loving but very strong hand I can mold our marriage and our home and our children's future to follow the proper traditional ways, as they should be, and to have everyone in the home be happy and healthy and proud to boot to be a part of it. I intend to rule with calm wisdom and solid example, not yelling and anger.
As for my future daughters... I will show them enough of the world as it really is as they are growing up and explain it to them in enough detail to effectively lead them to inescapably love the country life and horses and babies and men, the thought of starting their own plural families when they reach their late teens, and enthusiastically so. And the reason for that is simple, actually: they will have grown up full of joy, love, companionship and family, and most importantly unabashed Godly feminine appreciation for being female, and in building such a home culture will be a never-ending labor for me, i realize that. And when I show them, without even trying to hide it, what the rest of society lives like, what the modern world has become and goes on in it, what most modern women and families are like and how so many of them are well I won't say unhappy but definitely the distinct lack of jubilant and warm joy in their hearts and daily lives... I believe they will nearly all choose a good old-fashioned, biblical female life as a polygamous helpmeet to a lucky man rather than that dreary alternative being out on their own in the stark, uncaring, unhappy workaday world. And if an especially strong-headed daughter happens to rebel... well, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
I am honored, @MontanaDaniel, by the respect with which you treated my message. Thank you for that.
For my part, my cautions remain, but I have to acknowledge that I am also intrigued and impressed by the confidence you exhibit in your plan.
I'm going to be transparent here: I have multiple, and somewhat incongruent, reactions to your writing this. The cynic in me jumped out first: "Yeah; good luck on that one, dude!" But that pretty quickly gave way to me reminding myself that, coincidentally, I was 33 then as you are now when I married my current wife -- and she was 18. The age difference has its challenges, but we have consistently promoted it to others as an overall advantage. Kristin was far more ready for marriage at 18 than I was at 28, and I don't think that is an unusual dynamic between women and men.
So you have me thinking about a great many things relating to what an advantage it would have been to me had I been at 33 as determined as you are to create my world in support of what I then already knew to be true. Here's a major example: 5 years after getting married, Kristin and I entered into what was supposed to be a permanent relationship with another woman. She may now regret this even more than I do, but when Kristin got pregnant with our first child, she demanded that the other woman be cut off from us. The woman and I both capitulated, hoping Kristin would change her mind. Kristin and I both acknowledge that what I should have done at the time was simply stand up to her and keep Claire in our lives.
Clearly, my failure to be the man in the situation and stand firm in what I knew to be right resulted in a great many negative long-term ramifications.
My prayer is that you will continue to take advantage of brothers (and sisters) here who can help you navigate many things that at this point live in the realm of knowledge and theory for you but may confound you as you actualize them.
And, at some point, I suspect you and I will end up discussing what, if you don't have predominantly daughters but a more balanced mixture of boys and girls, you're going to do with all the sons you're going to have. I only introduce this issue, because it was the dilemma of the Mormons when they promoted polygyny for their children as well as for themselves (and remains for the current fundamentalist Mormons): the human surroundings quickly run out of enough wives for all the sons when the daughters of like-minded families are all encouraged to be sister wives, partially because those daughters primarily attach themselves to the highest-status, and generally older, men in the community.
Welcome again, though. I am confident that you're going to make life more interesting around here.
Keith
M
MontanaDaniel
Guest
@Keith Martin
Thanks for your honesty in describing your previous history and struggles with your first and second wife!! I wouldnt blame you at all for capitulating to your first wife since i did the same thing: in my last relationship of nearly 5 years with a monogamous woman, now dissolved thankfully (for the best, for both of us) i actually brought up polygamy very early on. So i was.... 27? I wanna say. Too young to know some things i know now, as well as a much reinforced backbone hah. Basically she freaked out, threatened to leave, i conceded, we worked it out... and spent another 4 years with a very nice and charming but ultimately wrong woman for me in yet another monogamy that didnt pan out. Who knows where i would be on my path today if i had stuck to my guns then (or broke up with her and then done what im doing now alot sooner). All that said, i have zero regrets, life is what it is for a reason which is mostly for God to know and for us to find out as we live it. Im happy im at this junction now and not later, at least.
Yes, you speak about the “lost boys” conundrum of polygamy’s “unwanted sons problem”. To this i have given a lot of thought.
My plan is to keep acquiring land in Montana locally to where i end up owning (perhaps even abutting or adjacent to my own future property there, luckily in MT its plentiful and affordable owing to how massive the state is with only 1.2 million people, plus all other things being equal its actually quite a permissive state for polygamy so long as you play it smart and stay well under the radar). Luckily i have plenty of time, since its not like the first sons will be marrying at 18, probably later like early to mid 20s, maybe even later for some if they have a more interesting and storied life arc before settling down.
It will be homeschooling all the way for both sons and daughters, although with drastically different materials and course-loads depending on sex. But lets focus on the sons. I want to teach them the Bible and Christian principles and beliefs as my number one priority (ideally we could actually build a nice little white church on the property, im sure the wives would love that), but i also believe its unfair to children of religious homes to under-prepare them for the real world. After all, God gave us His word codified and sealed in the Holy Book, but He also created reality. All of reality. Atheism? Ironically, God either conceived it or merely created the world allowing atheism to happen and knowing ahead of time it would. Capitalism? Science? The stars and cosmos? Cellphones? Computers? All God.
So i would also teach my sons history, english lit, math and science (basic stuff at first but keep ramping it up), add in machinery and agricultural tech up to pre-teens, and then when they turned around 15-16, depending on aptitude thus far, i would scrap the curriculum and teach them nothing but comp-sci and programming. This would allow them like me to make good money eventually working from home.
Ok, this gives them A LOT to do to keep them busy and learn a profitable (and fun) trade that will serve them well for life. But here’s the kicker, because all my sons would be raised polygamous, strong and masculine young men (at least thats my goal), at a certain point when many had reached their mid teens, i would tell them thus:
“My eldest sons, you are now coming of age, and of course you have siblings of all ages, brothers and sisters going down to the newborns in diapers, but youre at a pivotal time in your lives because very soon youll be men. And i want each of you to have your own homes and your own wives someday and a large happy family of your own, for each of you, and eventually for your younger brothers too when they come of age. And i want to help you achieve that. But it wont be easy, and youll have to earn it. Luckily i have a plan, but YOU are the ones who have to make it happen. I have taught most of you computer skills, and that will take you very far, but youll have to build your own homes, with your own two hands. I will supply a corner of our land for you to build on, the tools and raw building materials. Starting at 18, literally the day after your birthdays, each of you will be assigned to this task. The first home will be of the elsest son, and you will all help him build it, together. Luckily, i have had the eldest son, the second oldest and every 4th son after him (skipping 3 sons inbetween) learn not computer skills, but construction trades. Your eldest brother has spent the last 3 years learning the electricians trade, one of the hardest and most dangerous to do. The second eldest has been learning architecture and CAD. All the other necessary skills you all will need to build an entire home from scratch, and there are many, youll have to learn collectively along the way. Do not question or begrudge this fate i place upon each of you. We have been teaching you Bible stories about men building their own homes your entire lives. This isnt my decree, this is also a test from God to prove your worthiness to Him. Your eldest brother will be the foreman of his own home leading you other boys as each of you becomes 18 to help him build and finish his home, from foundation to chimney. You cant build a palace, but be smart, be savvy and work hard and each of you can have not just a trapper’s cabin but a grand lodge to call your forever home for yourself and your family on some corner of this land. Once you all finish the eldest brothers home, then you all have to build the second-eldests home, where he is foreman of the site, and so on, until each of you has a large home of your own in a corner of our land with many empty acres around you for privacy and peace. You can do this, but you must be humble, smart and work hard, as a team, or else, if you dont want to do this, at 18 you can go out into the world and work on your own and make your own living, make your own path. Ive taught you skills to make money and get by no matter what you choose. And so long as you remain loving faithful and respectful you can always visit home, but at 18 if you want to continue living here, it will have to be in the service of building homes for yourselves and your brothers. Those are your only options, i would say theyre darn good ones, but one is a lot better. At 18 you are free men, you could go travel the world and then go live in Thailand if you truly want and God wishes it, but my advice is this: we love you and we want you to stay locally. The benefits of this are multifold. So bite the bullet, work hard, before you know it with the help of many hands you will each have your own homes here, then you together with all the familys help and using all of our means and connections can also help each of you to find young wives to fill your homes with, one by one starting with the eldest son first. And then when that is achieved, believe me... youll thank God and thank me, in that order, for the bounty youll have earned and get to enjoy......”
I dont know, thats what i got so far. The plan is sort of a rough sketch, im sure itll get better with time. Considering the eldest is still non-existent i would say i have a bit of time to refine it!
Thanks for your honesty in describing your previous history and struggles with your first and second wife!! I wouldnt blame you at all for capitulating to your first wife since i did the same thing: in my last relationship of nearly 5 years with a monogamous woman, now dissolved thankfully (for the best, for both of us) i actually brought up polygamy very early on. So i was.... 27? I wanna say. Too young to know some things i know now, as well as a much reinforced backbone hah. Basically she freaked out, threatened to leave, i conceded, we worked it out... and spent another 4 years with a very nice and charming but ultimately wrong woman for me in yet another monogamy that didnt pan out. Who knows where i would be on my path today if i had stuck to my guns then (or broke up with her and then done what im doing now alot sooner). All that said, i have zero regrets, life is what it is for a reason which is mostly for God to know and for us to find out as we live it. Im happy im at this junction now and not later, at least.
Yes, you speak about the “lost boys” conundrum of polygamy’s “unwanted sons problem”. To this i have given a lot of thought.
My plan is to keep acquiring land in Montana locally to where i end up owning (perhaps even abutting or adjacent to my own future property there, luckily in MT its plentiful and affordable owing to how massive the state is with only 1.2 million people, plus all other things being equal its actually quite a permissive state for polygamy so long as you play it smart and stay well under the radar). Luckily i have plenty of time, since its not like the first sons will be marrying at 18, probably later like early to mid 20s, maybe even later for some if they have a more interesting and storied life arc before settling down.
It will be homeschooling all the way for both sons and daughters, although with drastically different materials and course-loads depending on sex. But lets focus on the sons. I want to teach them the Bible and Christian principles and beliefs as my number one priority (ideally we could actually build a nice little white church on the property, im sure the wives would love that), but i also believe its unfair to children of religious homes to under-prepare them for the real world. After all, God gave us His word codified and sealed in the Holy Book, but He also created reality. All of reality. Atheism? Ironically, God either conceived it or merely created the world allowing atheism to happen and knowing ahead of time it would. Capitalism? Science? The stars and cosmos? Cellphones? Computers? All God.
So i would also teach my sons history, english lit, math and science (basic stuff at first but keep ramping it up), add in machinery and agricultural tech up to pre-teens, and then when they turned around 15-16, depending on aptitude thus far, i would scrap the curriculum and teach them nothing but comp-sci and programming. This would allow them like me to make good money eventually working from home.
Ok, this gives them A LOT to do to keep them busy and learn a profitable (and fun) trade that will serve them well for life. But here’s the kicker, because all my sons would be raised polygamous, strong and masculine young men (at least thats my goal), at a certain point when many had reached their mid teens, i would tell them thus:
“My eldest sons, you are now coming of age, and of course you have siblings of all ages, brothers and sisters going down to the newborns in diapers, but youre at a pivotal time in your lives because very soon youll be men. And i want each of you to have your own homes and your own wives someday and a large happy family of your own, for each of you, and eventually for your younger brothers too when they come of age. And i want to help you achieve that. But it wont be easy, and youll have to earn it. Luckily i have a plan, but YOU are the ones who have to make it happen. I have taught most of you computer skills, and that will take you very far, but youll have to build your own homes, with your own two hands. I will supply a corner of our land for you to build on, the tools and raw building materials. Starting at 18, literally the day after your birthdays, each of you will be assigned to this task. The first home will be of the elsest son, and you will all help him build it, together. Luckily, i have had the eldest son, the second oldest and every 4th son after him (skipping 3 sons inbetween) learn not computer skills, but construction trades. Your eldest brother has spent the last 3 years learning the electricians trade, one of the hardest and most dangerous to do. The second eldest has been learning architecture and CAD. All the other necessary skills you all will need to build an entire home from scratch, and there are many, youll have to learn collectively along the way. Do not question or begrudge this fate i place upon each of you. We have been teaching you Bible stories about men building their own homes your entire lives. This isnt my decree, this is also a test from God to prove your worthiness to Him. Your eldest brother will be the foreman of his own home leading you other boys as each of you becomes 18 to help him build and finish his home, from foundation to chimney. You cant build a palace, but be smart, be savvy and work hard and each of you can have not just a trapper’s cabin but a grand lodge to call your forever home for yourself and your family on some corner of this land. Once you all finish the eldest brothers home, then you all have to build the second-eldests home, where he is foreman of the site, and so on, until each of you has a large home of your own in a corner of our land with many empty acres around you for privacy and peace. You can do this, but you must be humble, smart and work hard, as a team, or else, if you dont want to do this, at 18 you can go out into the world and work on your own and make your own living, make your own path. Ive taught you skills to make money and get by no matter what you choose. And so long as you remain loving faithful and respectful you can always visit home, but at 18 if you want to continue living here, it will have to be in the service of building homes for yourselves and your brothers. Those are your only options, i would say theyre darn good ones, but one is a lot better. At 18 you are free men, you could go travel the world and then go live in Thailand if you truly want and God wishes it, but my advice is this: we love you and we want you to stay locally. The benefits of this are multifold. So bite the bullet, work hard, before you know it with the help of many hands you will each have your own homes here, then you together with all the familys help and using all of our means and connections can also help each of you to find young wives to fill your homes with, one by one starting with the eldest son first. And then when that is achieved, believe me... youll thank God and thank me, in that order, for the bounty youll have earned and get to enjoy......”
I dont know, thats what i got so far. The plan is sort of a rough sketch, im sure itll get better with time. Considering the eldest is still non-existent i would say i have a bit of time to refine it!
No one could reasonably claim that you don't put a lot of thought into things.
Keep your mind churning, my middle-aged brother!