How best to promote patriarchy and polygyny

[Keith Martin]

Powerless on a national scale, but powerful in making people feel discriminated against.

I'm much more in agreement with Kevin Samuels on this one: while discrimination does indeed exist, black folks highly exaggerate the degree to which their challenges are directed at them whites and underestimate the degree to which their challenges are produced from within their own ranks. Two prominent examples are perceived prohibitions against interracial dating and discrimination based on lightness of skin tones.

Again, to use the parallelism framework, polygyny supporters often mistakenly ascribe justification for the ferocity of their reluctance to practice polygyny to outside groups, when some of their biggest hurdles are related to obstacles erected from within their own support groups. We aren't immune from that here in Biblical Families, with examples ranging from whether or not we're going to make a spectacle of ourselves to associated-adherence-to-piousness. In my own experience, family members and friends who have initially reacted with protest have relatively quickly retreated from that once they (a) recognized I wasn't going to retreat in the face of their disapproval, (b) realized that it wasn't going to morph me into some kind of different weirdo than I already was, and (c) got to chance to clear up their fears that people I'd now be associating with were going to start taking child brides. (And, yes, I do know that being kicked out of churches is a real risk, and I've experienced it myself, but I tend to dismiss that one because I consider any church that would kick one out to have done one a HUGE favor, the most significant potential of which is to inspire one to do some research into the folly of centering one's love of Yah around church membership -- and here's my shameless repeat plug for reading Frank Viola's Pagan Christianity.)

I could perhaps also be remiss if I didn't bore everyone with my redundant assertion that feeling discriminated against (or feeling most any sense of victimization outside of actual physical trauma or potent threats of bodily harm) is generally much more a matter of self-inflicted, self-fulfilling emotion than it is a matter of anyone else making one feel one way or another.

 

[The Revolting Man]

It varies, I know some that are still very offended by it.

Yeah, I know some too. It’s definitely the exception now though.

 

[frederick]

Is this something that is still seen as wrong in the US? No one blinks an eye about it here. I watched a movie the other day where this married couple were saying how they'd had a rough time with family not accepting them being together because they should find someone 'the same as them'. I couldn't for the life of me work out why until later on in the movie when I realised he was black and she was white.

Oddly enough, the first place I heard interracial marriage spoken against was in NZ. A church leader spoke against a Maori and European couple in a relationship as being "unequally yoked together". I later encountered it when I was with some friends in the USA who were quite opposed to such relationships. I haven't encountered any problems with it personally; one wife European and one Asian, but it might come up - although I suspect having two wives takes the focus of interracial marriage concerns.

 

[FollowingHim2]

Oddly enough, the first place I heard interracial marriage spoken against was in NZ. A church leader spoke against a Maori and European couple in a relationship as being "unequally yoked together". I later encountered it when I was with some friends in the USA who were quite opposed to such relationships. I haven't encountered any problems with it personally; one wife European and one Asian, but it might come up - although I suspect having two wives takes the focus of interracial marriage concerns.

There are certain members of the generation belonging to our grandparents that would still have issues with Maori and European couples. Mostly I've never heard of it being an issue at all though.
I can certainly see how having two wives would take away any racial issues lol.

 

[FollowingHim]

There are certain members of the generation belonging to our grandparents that would still have issues with Maori and European couples.

It varies, I know some that are still very offended by it.

We generally form our views when we are young, and retain most of them through our lives. This means, at the present time, older white people tend to be more racist than younger white people simply because they grew up at a time when racism was the norm in white culture. @steve, are the people you know that are "still offended by it" all people who are old enough to have been offended about it 40 years ago when everyone else was also?

what Kevin Samuels is discussing in the video is something that remains very much a hot button issue within the American black subculture: black men being excoriated by black women for dating or marrying white women. It is generally successfully portrayed within the American black community as being an unforgiveable betrayal of black women for a black man to date outside his race,

While today things have reversed - it is young black people who are racist, young white people are not. I cannot stand watching black women introducing themselves on American talk programs - they'll often begin with statements like "as a black woman", "I'm proud of my race" and other such racist crap. Nobody else cares what race they are, but American black women (at least the ones that get onto the television) can't stop talking about it. Looking from the outside, you get the impression that there is a very serious problem with racism within the black community in the USA, so thanks for clarifying that, it all makes sense now.

 

[The Revolting Man]

We generally form our views when we are young, and retain most of them through our lives. This means, at the present time, older white people tend to be more racist than younger white people simply because they grew up at a time when racism was the norm in white culture. @steve, are the people you know that are "still offended by it" all people who are old enough to have been offended about it 40 years ago when everyone else was also?

While today things have reversed - it is young black people who are racist, young white people are not. I cannot stand watching black women introducing themselves on American talk programs - they'll often begin with statements like "as a black woman", "I'm proud of my race" and other such racist crap. Nobody else cares what race they are, but American black women (at least the ones that get onto the television) can't stop talking about it. Looking from the outside, you get the impression that there is a very serious problem with racism within the black community in the USA, so thanks for clarifying that, it all makes sense now.

I’ve heard some research suggesting that younger people now are expressing more racist views than their parents, the problem ostensibly being caused by all of the race baiting going on right now.

 

[Keith Martin]

I’ve heard some research suggesting that younger people now are expressing more racist views than their parents, the problem ostensibly being caused by all of the race baiting going on right now.

Please share the research.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Please share the research.

It’s actually just been referenced on Louder with Crowder, I may have over sold my knowledge of the topic.

 

[Keith Martin]

It’s actually just been referenced on Louder with Crowder, I may have over sold my knowledge of the topic.

OK, let us know the update on your knowledge when you find it has come into focus . . .

 

[steve]

I personally heard one young person refer to another one as a wigger, an n-word wannabe.
They’ve got kids so messed up as regards to what is right or wrong, real or delusional, that kids don’t know up from down. Remember the campaign against bullying? Now it’s practiced and expected.
It wouldn’t surprise me a bit to see them get a bit off the rails with racism also.

 

[frederick]

I personally heard one young person refer to another one as a wigger, an n-word wannabe.
They’ve got kids so messed up as regards to what is right or wrong, real or delusional, that kids don’t know up from down. Remember the campaign against bullying? Now it’s practiced and expected.
It wouldn’t surprise me a bit to see them get a bit off the rails with racism also.

Yes, messed up because what used to be wrong is now taught as right and what used to be right is now taught as wrong. It's not racist or wrong for BLM supporters to attack and murder anyone who disagrees with their agenda. But woe to anyone who speaks against that.

 

[MeganC]

I'm just going to say that my preference is for a Caucasian man because I wanted my kids to be European.

Some people would call me a racist for this all while screaming MY BODY MY CHOICE!

I completely reject the idea that anyone is racist or bigoted because they won't date outside of their preferences.

I don't like cilantro either.

 

[frederick]

Some people would call me a racist for this all while screaming MY BODY MY CHOICE!

Yeah, and some would call a lot of us men here 'Trans-phobic' because we only date real women!

 

[Maddog]

I'm just going to say that my preference is for a Caucasian man because I wanted my kids to be European.

Some people would call me a racist for this all while screaming MY BODY MY CHOICE!

I completely reject the idea that anyone is racist or bigoted because they won't date outside of their preferences.

I don't like cilantro either.

Then how in the world do you make Pico de gallo without cilantro? Heresy I say!

 

[NS4Liberty]

Back to the original topic, I have a few thoughts:

First, as much as patriarchy is triggering to some, the idea of men being in charge is still mainstream enough in the church that it can be discussed and fleshed out. On the other hand, polygyny is virtually a non-existent topic of discussion and so is harder to rationally talk about. When I talk to people about 2nd Amendment gun rights, I don't start with trying to convince them I should be able to buy hand grenades at Walmart. Hand grenades are not what people are thinking about and bringing it up makes them shut down. As a new convert to poly being the proper reading of scripture, I view patriarchy as an AR-15 and polygyny as a hand grenade.

On the flip side, the argument could be made that shifting the Overton Window requires saying the "extreme" stuff out loud. The LGBTQ+ people used that method and it has worked, but it is messy and it helped that they had the media on their side.

Second: It might also help to change terminology. Instead of Patriarchy use Father Rule. Instead of fear use revere. Instead of submit use defer. Polygyny might be something like Historical Marriage. (Traditional is taken by the semi-patriarchal people who think the 1950's American housewife is the biblical ideal somehow.)

 

[Bartato]

Back to the original topic, I have a few thoughts:

First, as much as patriarchy is triggering to some, the idea of men being in charge is still mainstream enough in the church that it can be discussed and fleshed out. On the other hand, polygyny is virtually a non-existent topic of discussion and so is harder to rationally talk about. When I talk to people about 2nd Amendment gun rights, I don't start with trying to convince them I should be able to buy hand grenades at Walmart. Hand grenades are not what people are thinking about and bringing it up makes them shut down. As a new convert to poly being the proper reading of scripture, I view patriarchy as an AR-15 and polygyny as a hand grenade.

On the flip side, the argument could be made that shifting the Overton Window requires saying the "extreme" stuff out loud. The LGBTQ+ people used that method and it has worked, but it is messy and it helped that they had the media on their side.

Second: It might also help to change terminology. Instead of Patriarchy use Father Rule. Instead of fear use revere. Instead of submit use defer. Polygyny might be something like Historical Marriage. (Traditional is taken by the semi-patriarchal people who think the 1950's American housewife is the biblical ideal somehow.)

Excellent post!

May I suggest "masculine leadership" as another potentially useful term for "patriarchy"?

I really like your comparison of the AR-15 and hand grenade for the 2A community, with patriarchy and polygyny for the Biblical family community. I think you are right.

Though polygyny is Biblical, it is outside the Overton Window for reasonable discussion, even among those trying to follow the Bible.

A couple days ago, I listened to a series of talks on "Biblical Womanhood" from a woman (minister's wife) that was directed towards other women (mainly ministers wives).

This woman is associated with Paul Washer and the HeartCry Mission Society. I would regard them as being towards the very serious end of the Evangelical Christian spectrum. I would NOT regard them as churchians.

Overall, I thought the talks were very good. She made it clear that the husband is the leader. The wife is his helper, and is to follow and obey. The husband doesn't have to earn this respect and submission, but is due it because of his office as husband. This is all rooted in creation, etc.

It was much better and stronger than what we usually hear from "Complementarian" leaders like Wayne Grudem, Bruce Ware, John Piper etc.

I was seriously planning to ask my wife to listen to the series. Then, right at the end she listed polygamy as one of the horrible consequences of the fall, lumping it in with homosexuality, incest, adultery, rape etc.

As we all know, that is entirely wrong.
Now, I can't recommend it to my wife. It was 98% great and 2% suck.

I think similarly of Michael W. Smiths song "Above All". The song is awesome in giving glory to God, but then undermines it all at the end with that one line about Jesus thinking of "me above all". Christ no doubt loves us, but "above all" I think He thought of His Father.

The song is about 98% good song, and 2% suck,. Now, I cant sing it.

I don't think badly of the woman speaking on Biblical Womanhood. I bet she has never considered the Biblical teaching on polygyny. Being ignorant to it, she repeats what she has been taught.

Difficult thing to crack

 

[MemeFan]

Start with idea that men and women are not equal. I'm not talking about legal stuff and moral worth. It should be obvious.

Next step is that somebody must make decision. There is no such thing as completely equal marriage because partners can't always 100% agree. So what is case they don't agree?

 

[Joleneakamama]

I was seriously planning to ask my wife to listen to the series. Then, right at the end she listed polygamy as one of the horrible consequences of the fall, lumping it in with homosexuality, incest, adultery, rape etc

Debi Pearl wrote excellent books helping women understand how to be good wives and challenging them to really walk it out right. .....BUT she doesn't understand polygyny and so advised women to "Fight for their man" if he ever looked at another woman. She didn't advocate anything violent, just competition, and the wife upping her game in an attempt to shut the other woman out. Most women I suspect would like that......BUT I am NOT most women.

There was a meme I saw that expressed "To be truly yourself in a world that is trying to make everyone like everyone else is to fight the hardest fight of your life and never stop fighting." I'm not sure I agree completely, it doesn't feel like a fight to me. I just choose to be interspective, and pursue the truth. The freedom that brings is the reward.

No one teacher has it all. I believe this is deliberate on the part of our creator. It keeps us (if we allow it to) from placing too much faith in mere men and blindly following someone into error. Glean the good stuff wherever you find it. Maybe encourage your wife to listen to that series but also challenge her to prove all aspects of that woman's message? Jesus said the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. Learning to judge matters of doctrine is not just for "professionals" trained at the "cemetery."
I love that Jesus also stated that the sister (Mary and Martha) who wanted to understand the things of God had "Chosen the better part and it would not be taken from her."
I think about really big concepts sometimes while doing mundane tasks. *shrugs*
I think it helps keep me sane and grounded....others might still think I'm crazy.

But I am gonna be happy living my crazy life....sharing it with "my" man's other wife.

 

[NickF]

I’ve really liked the Pearl’s books and teachings, both Mike and Debi get some things wrong like all of us do. And I was trying my best to follow all his advice on marriage. The fruit wasn’t great. When I switched my focus and studied what God says. I read every verse on marriage, man, woman, adultery, etc. my life got flipped upside down. I changed the way I related to my wife and instructed her as I should have been doing years before.

The fruit is sweet and good. She is happier than ever, so am I.

Take the growing pains and troubles out and life would be nearly idyllic. But we are so much closer and happier with one another now. The Lord is blessing us.

 

[Rocky]

Debi Pearl wrote excellent books helping women understand how to be good wives and challenging them to really walk it out right. .....BUT she doesn't understand polygyny and so advised women to "Fight for their man" if he ever looked at another woman. She didn't advocate anything violent, just competition, and the wife upping her game in an attempt to shut the other woman out. Most women I suspect would like that......BUT I am NOT most women.

There was a meme I saw that expressed "To be truly yourself in a world that is trying to make everyone like everyone else is to fight the hardest fight of your life and never stop fighting." I'm not sure I agree completely, it doesn't feel like a fight to me. I just choose to be interspective, and pursue the truth. The freedom that brings is the reward.

No one teacher has it all. I believe this is deliberate on the part of our creator. It keeps us (if we allow it to) from placing too much faith in mere men and blindly following someone into error. Glean the good stuff wherever you find it. Maybe encourage your wife to listen to that series but also challenge her to prove all aspects of that woman's message? Jesus said the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. Learning to judge matters of doctrine is not just for "professionals" trained at the "cemetery."
I love that Jesus also stated that the sister (Mary and Martha) who wanted to understand the things of God had "Chosen the better part and it would not be taken from her."
I think about really big concepts sometimes while doing mundane tasks. *shrugs*
I think it helps keep me sane and grounded....others might still think I'm crazy.

But I am gonna be happy living my crazy life....sharing it with "my" man's other wife.

I think that same woman Author might have caused me some of my trouble! I don't know about other men,but it makes me feel like a prisoner!!!