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Meat God the Father - a polygamist

I think the subject of the two wives of God is probably a central theme that God is trying to reveal in the disclosure of plural marriage for today. This is an important topic for those who are new to polygamy and even those who have been around for awhile. To try and understand how God has to deal with different personalities is central to us trying to understand each other. Marriage is a first level of understanding of relationships between each of us and between God. Polygamy, to me, is a higher understanding and an important one for us to get right to get along with each other and to see how God relates to us individually. The hard thing here for us husbands is to try and become a wife and see the world she has to live in. I think us understanding how God relates to His wives should help us understand how to relate to ours, whether we have one or more, doesn't matter. It really comes down to what it 's like to be a wife, because in the end we are all a wife of God, and we have to live with each other in that capacity.

I will try again. The only problem with this, to actually learn anything here we are going to have to come to some kind of acceptance of the differences in Torah and non Torah thought, with out getting bogged down in the disagreement on whether the Old Covenant Laws will actually be lived on a daily bases in the future. For the most part, I believe most of the Torah followers here are open minded and are willing to at least look outside the box. Doesn't mean they accept it, it just means they respect the opinion of others and are willing to look at it. Just as I think there are non Torah people here that are willing to look at the opinion of someone with a Torah view. All good and healthy in my opinion. Its the hard stance, dogmatic responses that cause problems, at least from where I see. So, @PeteR I would like to have this discussion about the two brides of God. Who they are and how He has to deal with each DIFFERENT personalities on a scriptural bases with out the perceived future fulfillment of some prophecy that never really turns out the way we think anyway. What the Son of God does when He returns is up to Him, we can not say for sure how he will exactly interact with us. I agree it will be come from his foundation, the Law, but how He decides to implement that Law, containing Grace and Mercy, on a daily bases will be up to Him. Let's leave that part out.

I align with @FollowingHim. I also think that @PeteR saying that we are dealing really with the remnant of each house is correct. I am confused though on the statement that @Pacman made about Torah followers being of the house of Israel.

I would say that Judaism is the man made religion of Judah and Christianity is the man made religion of Israel. In essence, Judah is lead by the Law, or mans interpretation of the Law (Judaism), and Israel is lead by Grace, or mans interpretation of what Grace (Christianity) is. There is a lot of truth in both, but there is also a lot of man made traditions. (I am not talking about the remnant of each.) Both are wrong because they are mans interpretations, and somehow through it all a remnant develops in both houses, those who follow the interpretations God puts forth. But this is all here on this earth, and somehow we have to accept each other's different views and get along here. We both serve God, but have different responsibilities.

PeteR said:
I hear what you are saying, but in the context of this thread, the real question is, how does one bride treat the other? And, who is the party that is to correct the errant bride?

Think about it this way: If you have two wives, would you let one pass judgment on the other? Or, do you expect wife one to treat the second with love and respect, even if wife two is misbehaving? And, do you, the head of the house, assume all responsibility for discipline and fault finding?

Romans 14, in the context of a different issue, says, "3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

Yes, we should be careful and wise in how/where we invest, but we also, as sister wife, have zero authority to judge the other wife.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but if we view the relationship between Judaism and Christendom, assuming they are sister wives (I'm intentionally not ranking them) would we not expect the Husband to be the corrector, discipliner, etc? What then is the role of the sister wife? I tend to think in a plural family, the role would be to love, be an example, help, encourage, etc.... Seek to work together and leave the judging and fault finding to the husband.

Does our understanding of a plural dynamic change the way we think about Judah? Should it?
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Your statements are confusing. One side you seem to be saying, who is to judge the other wife? Or, one wife should not judge another wife? And you advocate for both wives to get along. And, they only one who should be judging both wives based on their individual merits, is the husband, or God in this case. Maybe you think you are of the wife that is being mistreated by the other wife? But, on the other hand you seem to be bent on correcting the other wife, Israel or Judah, I'm not sure anymore..

But then you also say, "I hear what you are saying, but in the context of this thread, the real question is, how does one bride treat the other? And, who is the party that is to correct the errant bride? Think about it this way: If you have two wives, would you let one pass judgment on the other? Or, do you expect wife one to treat the second with love and respect, even if wife two is misbehaving? And, do you, the head of the house, assume all responsibility for discipline and fault finding?

Who is mistreating who? (please accept my questions in a general sense, not directed at you but in the overall grand scheme of things)

Who do you think you align with? Judah, Israel? God (as the husband)?

What is the correction that needs to be made?

Do you think you are being corrected by another wife?

(Remember, general questions, related to the grand scheme of things)

In my mind I am developing these thoughts in relationship to what I have heard from those husbands who do have multiple wives and from my own experience to what it actually takes to confront the different personalities of women trying learn to live in the same place. The only possible solutions is to try and understand how God does it, and for that we need to figure out how each of us views the other.

Note: The reason I used the word "you" in most of the questions is because I am not sure which house you think you align with. If I had known that I would have used that term instead.
 
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Now this is turning into a great test case of how two wives, married to the same husband, attempt to work thru differences of opinion and understanding.

They may never end up on the same page, and each may have to settle that the husband may have given different instructions and responsibilities to the other, to be determined when he gets home.

I think this is gonna end up sidetracking this threads intended purpose though so if you guys wanna hash this out, let me know and I’ll copy the posts (instead of moving them) to a new thread.
 
Can you restate the propose of this thread. (I reread the OP, and combined it with other comments made to make an attempt to understand) If I understand it correctly, I don't think what I am trying to say would be a deviation. But I could be wrong. All I am trying to do is establish the ground work of who the players are at this point and what their reality is.
 
Basically to highlight the fact that God has more than one wife, primarily from scripture. How he makes his home a success would be a great topic for another thread.
 
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In any event, it's your thread, if Peter, or anyone wants to continue, move at your discretion. Yo da PoPo
 
@Cap thank you very much for a well thought out, non-attacking post. Yes, great questions and I definitely want to answer.... You lay it out well and it is not offensive.

I look forward to answering, but need to knock out a couple things first. As an aside, (and, I am not yanking your chain...) most of those questions are answered in detail in my book, backed up by loads of Scripture. What I write here will be the condensed version, but I do look forward to hashing it out.

@Verifyveritas76 if you want to copy/start a dedicated thread for that purpose, just show me where it is at.

Thanks.
 
Look forward to it, but can we do one thing, forget about your book and start from scratch. I don't have a book but I do have a certain knowledge I will be drawing from. Your book is not changeable, but our knowledge is based on the things we learn and should be changeable if we find new information. If you are not willing to change your view, as you perceived it when you wrote your book, then there is no point. And of course, I need to accept that I may need to change. And since it is your book, it's not a reliable extra biblical resource to me. Your pointing out such and such on whatever pages is not going to mean anything to me.

Take your time, we are all busy with life.
 
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Verifyveritas76 said:
That may be a false dichotomy. We are discussing this as if God the Father, or Christ his Son are limited to two wives.

I think its a more accurate statement to say that the first two are Messianic Judah and Messianic Israel. Both of them called and chosen by God.

And then you have the third wife. The one that God did not call, but did choose. Isaiah 65:1
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And then you add the fact that that "third wife" is grafted in to the first two, so isn't really separate at all (which one are they grafted into anyway? Or is it both?).
And the fact that everyone's interbred anyway and usually don't know their actual ancestry any more. Also, modern Jews track their ancestry down the female line, when scripturally inheritance goes down the male line, so it is probable that many people who think they are in Judah are not, while many people who think they are not actually are.
And nobody really knows if they're in the 10 tribes anyway.
If you try to get it precisely right, then it falls to pieces rapidly.

I see it as a useful illustration, because it is one God uses, but I don't try to grab onto it too tight because it's slippery and pops out of my hand when I do that.

God's ultimate purpose is to make us all one. There's no point trying too hard to draw lines of distinction solely so we can close them again. If the distinction already doesn't exist, that is a good thing.

But where lines of distinction do presently exist (e.g. between Messianic and non-Messianic believers in terms of cultural practices and peripheral theological issues), we can use this illustration to show us not to have animosity towards each other, but to accept the other as we are all being drawn together to God.
 
FollowingHim said:
And nobody really knows if they're in the 10 tribes anyway.
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Between the Black Hebrews and the British Israelite's it seems to me just about anyone can stake a claim to that. :D;)

[edit: on a whim, I looked up Hebrew Israelite Chinese....yep even them]
 
FollowingHim said:
And then you add the fact that that "third wife" is grafted in to the first two, so isn't really separate at all (which one are they grafted into anyway? Or is it both?).
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I think this is a mistake in perspective. The second or subsequent wives are not grafted into the first wife. All wives are grafted into the husband via his covenant/family. This is how they are one “flesh”.

Think of the parable of the vine. Christ is the vine/branch/trunk. We are all the branches that have been grafted into Him. A family is the same. The second or subsequent wives don’t receive their provision thru the first, but from the source. A family structure where the additional wives are grafted into the first will result in a wife hierarchy. In comparison, when they are all grafted into the husband, there is an equality among the wives instead of authority.

Its the same example as the gifts that God gave the church. Apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelist pastors. All have a separate but distinct and necessary role in the success of the assembly. But without a hierarchy and they each answer to their head. They effect positive change in the assembly by influence and cooperation, not “authority” or hierarchy. All subject to one Lord only.

When I think of the nation that God did not call but did choose, I think of the Gentiles. Those outside the dividing wall.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
Think of the parable of the vine. Christ is the vine/branch/trunk. We are all the branches that have been grafted into Him. A family is the same. The second or subsequent wives don’t receive their provision thru the first, but from the source. A family structure where the additional wives are grafted into the first will result in a wife hierarchy. In comparison, when they are all grafted into the husband, there is an equality among the wives instead of authority.
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Excellent!
 
Just thought of another one.
John 14:2. In my fathers house are many mansions (in KJV).

I’d always heard that the mansion was an actual house, but in first century context, this is most likely a suite of rooms within the house. This follows the historical plural family home structure where each wife has her own “suite”. Christ is saying that his father is wealthy enough to have many suites. Typically, the suite or wing was added when another wife was being added to the family. Christ follows this statement about his fathers house by saying, I go to prepare a place for you.

So to recap:
My father has many suites in his house, (inference is that there is more than one wife)
My father is wealthy
Christ is intimately familiar with a plural family culture. He grew up in his fathers house.
Christ is going to prepare a suite, for at least 11 at that point.
And that Christ is going to return to receive (at least 11) unto himself for cohabitation. “Where I am/live, you may be/live also.

IMO, I now see this passage as Christ comforting his betrothed by saying, As my father has done, I will do.

This passage is the focal point of the believers hope. That Christ will return one day and we will go to live with him. ALL of us, and everyone gets their own “mansion”. (Or suite)

Its too important to misunderstand, or overlook. Kind of like overlooking the parable of the Ten virgins.
 
PeteR said:
@Cap your comment exactly proves Scripture and prophecies relating to this thread.

Isaiah 11:13 says, "Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, and those who harass Judah will be cut off. Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah and Judah will not harass Ephraim."

Indeed, two brides. The Father will bring them together to walk in peace and cease snarky comparisons, or, those within will be cut off...

Dire warning against fault finding and pleasuring in the weakness of the other. My recommendation is that you cease fault finding w Judah. That job is the husband's alone.
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I already knew this to be true but WOW!
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
Just thought of another one.
John 14:2. In my fathers house are many mansions (in KJV).

I’d always heard that the mansion was an actual house, but in first century context, this is most likely a suite of rooms within the house. This follows the historical plural family home structure where each wife has her own “suite”. Christ is saying that his father is wealthy enough to have many suites. Typically, the suite or wing was added when another wife was being added to the family. Christ follows this statement about his fathers house by saying, I go to prepare a place for you.

So to recap:
My father has many suites in his house, (inference is that there is more than one wife)
My father is wealthy
Christ is intimately familiar with a plural family culture. He grew up in his fathers house.
Christ is going to prepare a suite, for at least 11 at that point.
And that Christ is going to return to receive (at least 11) unto himself for cohabitation. “Where I am/live, you may be/live also.

IMO, I now see this passage as Christ comforting his betrothed by saying, As my father has done, I will do.

This passage is the focal point of the believers hope. That Christ will return one day and we will go to live with him.

Its too important to misunderstand, or overlook. Kind of like overlooking the parable of the Ten virgins.
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Oh my! This is gettin' good guys!
 
Popping this in here: Zamenhof (a jew) in his Esperanto Bible translates in Ezekiel 23:4 "וַתִּֽהְיֶ֣ינָה לִ֔י" - "and they become mine" as "Ili farigxis Miaj edzinoj" - "they became my wives". After all that is the language used elsewhere in Scripture when someone takes a wife: just another way European translations are slanted.

Makes me wonder what Zamenhof thought of the whole polygyny issue, though in general even European Jews are more open to it. I once came upon a random youtube where a Jew said the limit of four wives which the European Jews followed (and which the Mohammedans imitated) was not a valid restriction according to Jewish custom, and was unknown to Jews living in other parts of the world.

Another thing to toss into the discussion: people often confuse Jewish ancestry with being a Jew in the biblical sense: being one of the circumcised. Biblically it's a creed, an inheritance, rather than a bloodline, which is pertinent to any discussion of biblical references to Jews. A lot of my family actually thinks Jews don't really exist anymore, because the bloodline was dispersed so no one is more than half Jew by ancestry. But the Bible says that people "became Jews", and it is these Jews, the circumcised, who are the subject of discussion, unless you're discussing genetics, not the Bible.

It would be interesting to quiz people: "What is a physical attribute of a Jew?" When they respond with something like black hair, brown skin - "The answer is: the only physical attribute of a Jew is circumcision."
In fact, since Abraham's servants were circumcised along with his son, there could very well have been a blonde haired, blue-eyed Jew right from the start. :D
 
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Patrick Lauser said:
Popping this in here: Zamenhof (a jew) in his Esperanto Bible translates in Ezekiel 23:4 "וַתִּֽהְיֶ֣ינָה לִ֔י" - "and they become mine" as "Ili farigxis Miaj edzinoj" - "they became my wives". After all that is the language used elsewhere in Scripture when someone takes a wife: just another way European translations are slanted.

Makes me wonder what Zamenhof thought of the whole polygyny issue, though in general even European Jews are more open to it. I once came upon a random youtube where a Jew said the limit of four wives which the European Jews followed (and which the Mohammedans imitated) was not a valid restriction according to Jewish custom, and was unknown to Jews living in other parts of the world.

Another thing to toss into the discussion: people often confuse Jewish ancestry with being a Jew in the biblical sense: being one of the circumcised. Biblically it's a creed, an inheritance, rather than a bloodline, which is pertinent to any discussion of biblical references to Jews. A lot of my family actually thinks Jews don't really exist anymore, because the bloodline was dispersed so no one is more than half Jew by ancestry. But the Bible says that people "became Jews", and it is these Jews, the circumcised, who are the subject of discussion, unless you're discussing genetics, not the Bible.

It would be interesting to quiz people: "What is a physical attribute of a Jew?" When they respond with something like black hair, brown skin - "The answer is: the only physical attribute of a Jew is circumcision."
In fact, since Abraham's servants were circumcised along with his son, there could very well have been a blonde haired, blue-eyed Jew right from the start. :D
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Fascinating! I always found it troubling that modern day Jews trace their ancestry through the maternal line, which is clearly no indication of whether they are truly Abraham's seed.
 
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