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Meat God the Father - a polygamist

I think its kind of a catch 22. You have to understand it spiritually to live it physically, but you also have to live it physically to understand it spiritually.

Kind of like walking on water.
 
Cap said:
I think its kind of a catch 22. You have to understand it spiritually to live it physically, but you also have to live it physically to understand it spiritually.

Kind of like walking on water.
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Isn’t that the purpose of the whole Torah?
 
Cap said:
I think its kind of a catch 22. You have to understand it spiritually to live it physically, but you also have to live it physically to understand it spiritually.

Kind of like walking on water.
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Well I understand it spiritually, but until my wife comes around, that is the only understanding that I will have, unless the Lord takes her prematurely.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
Well I understand it spiritually, but until my wife comes around, that is the only understanding that I will have, unless the Lord takes her prematurely.
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But even with that, you are learning many things correct? So do I.
 
Cap said:
I think you are missing the point, the fact that you are struggling with this in the physical world, with a physical wife and all that this takes to make it real, is learning about PM in the real world.
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Oh! Cool! Because I thought I was missing out on something.
 
Would you be interested in Ezekiel 37? Awesome passage detailing what the Father/Husband's plans are for the two brides in one house and what His house rules are?
 
As has been previously pointed out, God indeed portrays Himself on several occasions as having two brides. We have already mentioned the obvious Ezekiel 23, Jeremiah 3, and 31:34 references, but have you ever considered that the whole of Scripture is written in the context of God working to bring His two brides together into one echad house? ( Echad is a Hebrew word often translated as 'one' that more correctly means 'united.')

God doesn't state this overtly until the two references in Jeremiah, however, as soon as one sees the Jeremiah references, they should immediately have all of Scripture snap into focus from a slightly different paradigm. The fact that is doesn't is because of the envy and jealousy, the strike, between the two brides. Let me explain.

Ezekiel 23 articulates exactly who the two brides are, the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Both Christendom and Judaism have conflated those two terms assuming they both mean the same group of people, but they do not. The truth is, All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. This is a major, even foundational, point lost on 99% of all Jews and Christians. I will be so bold as to state that one cannot understand Scripture or correctly follow the progress of redemption without understanding God's purpose and actions for each of the two houses. What is especially fascinating to me, is that He uses the framework of polygyny to reveal Himself and His Ways.

Polygyny, as part of the story of Redemption for mankind, actually begins long before Ezekiel. It begins in Genesis 29!! Jacob, Leah and Rachel!! God's revelation of Himself, through Plural marriage begins in with Jacobs two sons, Judah and Joseph, born respectively to Leah and Rachel. It is from these two men that the leadership for the house of Judah (sons of Judah, later derisively simply called Jews) and the house of Israel (called variously Ephraim, house of Joseph, and house of Israel) springs.

Jacob, in an unusual move, divides the birthright and the blessing in Genesis 48 & 49 wherein he gives the double portion to Joseph through Ephraim (the younger) and Manasseh, while giving the birthright/rulership to Judah with the scepter. Jacob learned that lesson not only through his own parents, but through his wrestling with Esau, particularly in Genesis 32. To protect the house from Esau (aka Edom) and near certain destruction, he divided it!! See Genesis 32 & 33. It is very important from this point forward in Scripture to keep in mind the four mothers, Leah, Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah as well as which sons are connect to who. Scripture is laden with detail concerning who camped next to who, what tribe did this, that or the other. etc. We gloss over these details until we understand that this is a detailed account of the two brides wrestling for headship and control, contrary to their assigned duties.

There are rumblings of discontent and minor skirmishes between Joseph and Judah until Solomon. (The two houses begin to get named 'airtime' during the transition between King Saul and King David. Remember, David was King over Judah for seven years before the house of Israel came under his leadership?) Solomon, alternately a picture of the Messiah and the anti-messiah, (much detail to tease out there) plays the houses against each other and nearly enslaves the northern house of Israel while wildly enriching Jerusalem and the ruling class from the house of Judah. The result is that in I Kings 12 the kingdom is divided. Note particularly that the house of Israel rebels against the 'house of David' and that God says, (v.24) 'this thing is from Me.'

God separated the two brides that had been walking side by side as 'the whole house of Israel.' He had a purpose that was prophesied by Jacob in order to fulfill His promises to Abraham and bring redemption to all of Creation.

We read the history book and our eyes glaze over with names of kings, the things they did, etc, but we fail to understand why God includes all of this information. Yet, as soon as one understands the two houses are two brides we begin to understand that what we are reading is the drama that played out in the house of Jacob and why each of the two brides went their separate ways, house of Israel into adultery (idolatry) and the house of Judah into self absorption and attempted manipulation then rejection of the Husband.

Both brides belong in the house. Both brides have major issues. Neither wants to acknowledge the other, yet God loves them both with an everlasting love. He pursues both.

The house of Israel was scattered into the nations and Judah began to call them the 'lost tribes.' They were never lost, God kept up with the DNA as well as added to their numbers. Most wound up in Church pews thinking that God hates Jews and that they are more special than the sister that rejected the Messiah, but kept Torah, even if adding a bunch to what God originally gave.

The house of Judah wound up being dispersed and despised, though God made very specific promises to them to protect and bring them back to the land of Jacob.

Neither house, or Bride, wants to acknowledge the rightful place of the other. Replacement theology is the Christian means of eliminating the competition for the Husband, Noahidism and conversion to Judaism is the Jewish means of ignoring Joseph (Ephraim means doubly fruitful), the fruitful one in the nations. Hating the Husband, Yeshua, for pursuing the wayward wife is another way to express displeasure at God's polygyny and the rightful place of the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 37 tells us what God's plan is for restoring the house of Jacob. Verse 11 clearly says that the 'whole house of Israel', a term reserved for both houses, not just one, will be raised to dwell in His sight. Then in verses 15-19 we are clearly told that the son of man is to use two sticks, representing the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Joseph/Ephraim) and he is to 'draw them near.' (Most translations say 'join' but that is not what the Hebrew says.) God then states that He will make the two sticks, the two houses, echad:united in My hand.!!

Then, listen to these amazing verses:

21 Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.

The men on this board think molding two ladies to walk in peace is hard? God's been working on that for 4000 YEARS!! Ladies, you think you have troubles with each other in a plural home? The house of Judah and the house of Israel have been squabbling over petty stuff and not listening to the Husband for 4000 years!! The house of Israel has been kicked out for 2740 YEARS!!

The good news, God hasn't given up!! Even better news, the awakening in His people toward plural marriage is one of several indicators that this is the time of redemption and restoration. We are seeing in real time, experiencing in the physical,what He has had written in His Word for 2000 years! This journey you each are on has a much greater purpose than simply fulfilling some seeming innate desire to build a family. You are understanding the heart of God for HIS brides. and, you are seeing how very complex HIS task is for redemption. And, if you will open your eyes, you will see depths in Scripture the prophets only imagined as you physically walk out what He is doing on a grand scale in His people. He is restoring the two houses of Israel!!

Ezekiel finishes by painting a picture for the future. On the small scale, there are truths we can pull out about dwelling together in a plural home, living at peace with one set of house rules, accepting our brothers of Judah or the sister wife that is coming into the family, etc... The following verses are the future hope for God's people and it is the tale of a peaceful blessed plural house that walks in unity!!

24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”

Folks, Ezekiel 23 tells us the horrors of the two sister wives walking contrary to God. BUT, Ezekiel 37 spells out the blessings of coming together, accepting His statutes and ordinances and following the King, My servant David, the Good Shepherd. Judah is half right. Torah (not the oral, but the written of Moses) is the house rules... the very rules that Christendom rejects declaring they can understand the spiritual without physical obedience. Absurd. The house of Israel is half right. The Messiah is Yeshua, but He has rules... even statutes and ordinances.

Revelation tells us multiple times that the saints are those who 'keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua.' Both houses have to be on the same page. Both brides need to love the Husband and keep His commands. Both need to accept the other.

This has gotten terribly long, and I apologize, but it is the key to understanding Scripture and why God uses the two bride imagery to reveal Himself and His plan. It is supported by hundreds of passages. Once you see it in Scripture, it is everywhere!!

Remember, Isaiah 2:5? 'Come house of Jacob (both houses...) let us walk n the light of the Lord'? See the context and note it is in the last days and Torah is taught by Messiah from Mt. Zion.

If you would like to understand this topic more fully, consider Ten Parts in the King, The Prophesied Restoration of God's Two Witnesses. A full and detailed exposition of the two brides is explained from Scripture. The role of the Messiah and His plan of redemption, etc. It does not discuss plural marriage as that is a 'bridge too far' for the average reader. But, this is a mature audience that will clearly understand the subtext.
 
That is well explained @PeteR.

Just teasing out an important detail: There is a dangerous heresy that is easy to slip into, and too many people do. This heresy is assuming that Talmudic Judaism is the valid religion of the house of Judah, and that to accept Judah Christians must accept Judaism as a valid religious perspective. Some ministries are going so far as to publicly declare they are stopping proselytizing to Jews. This is a dangerous heresy, because both houses need the Messiah.

In reality, Judah has Torah from God - but it is Judaism, (ie the layers of additional rules and interpretation that they have layered on top of Torah, in many cases post-Yeshua) that is where they have gone wrong. If they simply followed Torah, that would be one thing. But they do not simply follow Torah. Rather, they have fallen:
PeteR said:
into self absorption and attempted manipulation then rejection of the Husband.
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That self-absorption, and rejection of the Husband, is Talmudic Judaism. This is their heresy, not their acceptable worship.

Those who reject Messiah are cut off, they are not accepted despite their rejection. All must accept Him to be saved. However, this gives nobody cause to boast.
Romans 11:11-24 said:
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
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The whole natural, biological house of Judah are not saved simply by birthright. Rather, those who do not follow Messiah are rejected - and Paul wishes to save "some of" them by bringing them back to God.

Just as not everyone from Ephraim is saved either simply by virtue of being a descendant of Israel, they must choose to follow Messiah also.

The rules for both are the same. PeteR stresses that Torah applies to both - I am stressing that acceptance of Messiah applies to both also. The two houses that are accepted, not cut off, are those people within those houses who follow Messiah. And in both cases this is a small remnant, and it is our job to share Messiah with those who have not yet found Him.

We should learn Torah from Judah - but not learn Judaism from Judah. Likewise, we must teach Messiah to Judah - but not teach Western Christian culture mislabelled as Christianity (e.g. monogamy).
 
Thank you, @FollowingHim excellent clarification.

I have continued pondering the two houses/two brides much of today, particularly focusing on the magnitude of God's task and how poorly the two treat each other.

Based on @FollowingHim 's clarification, it is the remnant in each house that should be connecting with the other...

Are we learning practical lessons that help us walk in God's ways physically so we learn the bigger issues about the two kingdoms coming together andcdwelling at peace with our brothers?
 
The world deliberately conflates the state of Israel, Judaism, and Judah. This allows the growing heart of many Christians for Judah to be deliberately exploited and misdirected to get people to financially support the state of Israel, sending donations from countries that are in deep debt to one that is debt-free, supposedly in order to support God's people but actually to prop up a state that rejects Messiah and where evangelism to Jews is actually illegal. This propping up the state of Israel ranges from supporting politicians who will send large sums of taxpayer money to Israel, to donating to charitable work there. Even social services provided by Christian charities mean less money needs to be spent by the government to provide the same services, thus all forms of assistance support a secular state that could easily afford to provide those services themselves but can instead leave people in hardship to provide sob-stories to draw in external funding.

One practical lesson is to be careful to understand where and how to invest our resources, to ensure they are used for the purposes of the Kingdom and not to support those who reject the King.

If we have a heart for the house of Judah, we must ensure our resources go towards evangelism and not to other purposes. If donating to work in Israel, our resources must go to those few Christian workers who have the boldness to break the law and evangelize there in secret, using the aid program simply as an excuse to get access.
 
Cap said:
that polygamy is not an easy thing.
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Nether is marriage to one woman. Many folks say from that we shouldn't get married at all because of that just the same as many monogamists say the troublesome poly marriages mean we shouldn't have multiple wives. I disagree.
 
FollowingHim said:
The world deliberately conflates the state of Israel, Judaism, and Judah. This allows the growing heart of many Christians for Judah to be deliberately exploited and misdirected to get people to financially support the state of Israel, sending donations from countries that are in deep debt to one that is debt-free, supposedly in order to support God's people but actually to prop up a state that rejects Messiah and where evangelism to Jews is actually illegal. This propping up the state of Israel ranges from supporting politicians who will send large sums of taxpayer money to Israel, to donating to charitable work there. Even social services provided by Christian charities mean less money needs to be spent by the government to provide the same services, thus all forms of assistance support a secular state that could easily afford to provide those services themselves but can instead leave people in hardship to provide sob-stories to draw in external funding.

One practical lesson is to be careful to understand where and how to invest our resources, to ensure they are used for the purposes of the Kingdom and not to support those who reject the King.

If we have a heart for the house of Judah, we must ensure our resources go towards evangelism and not to other purposes. If donating to work in Israel, our resources must go to those few Christian workers who have the boldness to break the law and evangelize there in secret, using the aid program simply as an excuse to get access.
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I hear what you are saying, but in the context of this thread, the real question is, how does one bride treat the other? And, who is the party that is to correct the errant bride?

Think about it this way: If you have two wives, would you let one pass judgment on the other? Or, do you expect wife one to treat the second with love and respect, even if wife two is misbehaving? And, do you, the head of the house, assume all responsibility for discipline and fault finding?

Romans 14, in the context of a different issue, says, "3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

Yes, we should be careful and wise in how/where we invest, but we also, as sister wife, have zero authority to judge the other wife.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but if we view the relationship between Judaism and Christendom, assuming they are sister wives (I'm intentionally not ranking them) would we not expect the Husband to be the corrector, discipliner, etc? What then is the role of the sister wife? I tend to think in a plural family, the role would be to love, be an example, help, encourage, etc.... Seek to work together and leave the judging and fault finding to the husband.

Does our understanding of a plural dynamic change the way we think about Judah? Should it?
 
PeteR said:
Correct me if I am wrong here, but if we view the relationship between Judaism and Christendom, assuming they are sister wives
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Judaism and Christendom are not the two houses. All who reject Messiah are cut off - Judaism rejects Messiah. As you said in your previous post, it is the remnant in each house who are the true bride.

If the Jews were one bride, then the other bride would be the entire 10 tribes, wherever they are - some would say all of Europe and the Western world, others would say differently. Regardless, this makes no sense. A godless European atheist is not part of the Bride just because of their ancestry - and nor is a secular Jew. A nominal 'Christian' who doesn't actually follow God, but who grew up in a church environment and believes God exists but does not accept Jesus personally is not part of the Bride - and nor is a religious Jew who likewise rejects Messiah.

The two brides are Messianic Jews, and non-Jewish Christians.

And they should not judge each other.
 
FollowingHim said:
The two brides are Messianic Jews, and non-Jewish Christians.

And they should not judge each other.
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That may be a false dichotomy. We are discussing this as if God the Father, or Christ his Son are limited to two wives.

I think its a more accurate statement to say that the first two are Messianic Judah and Messianic Israel. Both of them called and chosen by God.

And then you have the third wife. The one that God did not call, but did choose. Isaiah 65:1
 
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