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God not a polygamist?

That’s not much of a fine line to me.
I don't even see a line. The first time satan appeared in the bible....it was the angel of the lord! :eek:o_O
I see what makes polygyny difficult is man's selfish lusts.....and certainly, done right, love exampled in a family with multiple wives is inspirational. :)
 
I think my goal would be to bring this issue to the church where it is an issue that we can agree to disagree on, such that people like Dr. Luck can hold his view, without being thrown out on his backside, by the ministries that he has worked for, in his proclamation of the gospel message.
 
I'm still interested in finding out if anyone has good response to those who bring up polygamy is not on the NT.
Helping people to see what is actually in the Bible is a major battle in itself. For an example of another common problem with what people see in the Bible; there is NO evolution or billions of years in the Bible, only divine creation yet many argue for the acceptance of the belief of evolution, forcing it into biblical texts.

People see "monogamy-only" in the Bible but it's not there. The union of a man and a woman (commonly called marriage) is in the Bible and there are examples of the union of a man with one woman, and examples of a man untited with more than one woman - both of which God permits.

Point out to those you are talking with that it is God who defines the permissable unions and those which are not permissable. He set these out in Leviticus 18 and we see the application of His laws in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. For example, in Lev. 18:22 is God's prohibition of a male to male sexual union; sodomy or homosexuality as we know it. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 the Scriptures declare that both practitioners, those who act the male part and those who act the effeminate part, will not inherit the kingdom of God. The writer of the epistle believes the law regarding sexual relationships and those which God permits is still applicable to the present. The same writer, in the epistle to the Thessalonians, told the saints to abstain from sexual immorality (1 Thessalonians 4:2) - using the same words as the apostles and elders did at the Jerusalem Council, recorded in Acts 15:20 & 29. God hasn't changed His moral standards as can be seen in these passages; He still rejects male to male unions but permits male to female unions within His prescribed boundaries. For those who promote a belief saying He has changed, the onus of proof rests upon them in the same manner as it is to prove the prohibition of Lev.18:23 still applies today although it is NOT repeated in the New Testament.

The union of a man to a woman has always been God's means to avoid sexual immorality. It is written, again using the same words as in both Acts 15:29 and in 1 Thessalonians 4:2, in 1 Corinthians 7:2; Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own woman, and let each woman have her man.

God defines what is and what is not sexually immoral, and it is treasonous for any mortal to claim the right to nullify what Almighty God has said - including redefining the unions He permits or forbids.

My $0.02 worth. Shalom
 
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Installment One:

Thankyou for sharing more of where you're coming from @Cap, and honestly, I can actually empathise with your concerns.

My, oh my, what one can miss in less than 24 hours . . .

Comments below in response to high points, rearranged hopefully in an order that provides some flow:

Let's consider literature work in the form of monetary value. Are you going to waste you time with something that has no value to you? Let me be blunt, I find no value in what @PeteR has to say. I am not really asking for his opinion. I have no interest in reading what he wrote. That's just the facts.

And sometimes honesty isn't always the best policy (one of my favorite songs is Hall & Oates' Some Things Are Better Left Unsaid -- and not just because their live-band guitarist G.E. Smith once played a guitar solo of Somewhere Over the Rainbow on my chest in the middle of a concert).

I've written elsewhere on this web site that, rather than providing feedback the purpose of which can only be labeled as attempted suppression, if one doesn't care to hear what a particular person has to say, or doesn't approve of the manner in which the contribution is offered, respond to the subject matter or ideas or don't respond to them, then just move on. If it isn't going to speak you, for whatever reason, just assume that it wasn't written for you. Ignore it, and most especially refrain from attacking the writer; to do the latter is to waste one's time and the time of those who read what amounts to your personal tangent.

What I'm saying applies even when a post is written directly to you. What you can never know is that someone else who reads the post may discover life-saving or spiritually-regenerating nuggets within that which you deemed unworthy of attention.

You tell me about any good relationships that have developed within the recent time period that have come from a polygamous relationship. Do you know of any positive relationships?

I do indeed. I hesitate, though, to name names in a public forum like this, though, perhaps partly because of the same reasons why you don't want to publicly disclose the situation to which you've referred, @Cap, the one that concerns you enough to cause you enough distress to drive you to propel a discussion here that I know has to be uncomfortable for you.

certainly, done right, love exampled in a family with multiple wives is inspirational. :)

My family is very close to a family who are polygynous, and both Kristin and I freely express that this particular family -- which has been formed since we first met the people involved and which qualifies as recent in that it started subsequent to my learning of Biblical Families -- is more inspirational to us than just about any marriage, period. If, for the sake of thought experiment, one were to differentiate one of the pair of marriages within this family from the other, both would qualify as exemplary marriages, but it is the manner in which the three of them, and their children, function as a working family that is the most inspirational. Something has been created among them that a monogamous marriage probably doesn't even have the potential to demonstrate, and it is likely the most significant thing that has inspired Kristin to yearn for the lifestyle.

We all have to remember something in the midst of this discussion that @julieb has been eloquent about in these threads from time to time: marriage, while the prescribed form of permanent union, is almost always problematic; it is by nature a challenge, and we are unfair to polygamy when we expect it to not only avoid being disastrous but expect it to have a better track record than monogamy. Instead of accepting that it be only as successful or perhaps even just a little less likely to succeed than monogamy (given its increased challenges and the manner in which our culture is dead-set on laying waste to it), we polygamy-promoters have a bad habit of falling into the trap of expecting that polygamous marriages should always be outstanding examples of shining Christhood -- unconsciously assuming that we have something to prove to those who would work to destroy us.

Nothing that I have ever experienced puts you more in his crosshairs than does poly.
He hates it.
He fears it.

Many might challenge poly being the paramount crosshairs (I tend to think that polygamy and patriarchy are just a couple in a long list of life approaches that the Adversary uses his allies to demonize; the collapse-the-system folks have always been against polygamy -- they were behind forcing the international Jews to formally denounce polygamy in exchange for the formation of the State of Israel after WWII -- but they are just as intent on destroying a long list of freedoms associated with countering statism, in addition to being dedicated to destroying families and religious belief in general), but the Adversary clearly puts special effort into destroying those who approach polygamy from a patriarchal perspective, because it is his job to do anything he can to inspire us humans to turn our backs on God, and I firmly assert that those who practice or provide support for polygamy practiced according to biblical principles are among God's strongest servants.

How many sincere people have you met that want this life style,?

@Cap, you and I have discussed this in person, in public forums, and in private conversations here online, so I hope you remember that this is also a concern of mine. The difference may be that I don't see it as having any bearing on whether biblical polygamy is legitimate, and I'm entirely confident that I can eloquently articulate my support of polygyny in any situation in which a person approaches me with objections. But, yes, the issue of sincerity is relevant. I'll throw out some figures I've probably shared with you, as I've shared them with others; I don't pretend that they are scientifically exact, only that they are pretty good approximations:
  • I suspect that some very small minority of people shows up at this web site with no sincerity whatsoever about support of biblical polygamy. I don't know if that's 1% or 2% or perhaps as much as 10%, but it doesn't matter to me, because those folks are usually sussed out for what they are in relatively short order (our population is, in general, more suspicious than average and thus more on guard).
  • If we go conservative and estimate the above at 10%, then that leaves us with 90%.
  • I estimate that all of the remaining 90%, start off believing they are entirely sincere in their level of belief in and support of biblical polygamy.
  • I estimate, though, that a minimum of 30% and perhaps closer to 60% are, in fact, not sincere from the get-go. They think they are, but for a variety of reasons (including having never really thought the whole thing through; just wanting more sex but having failed to contemplate the increased levels of responsibility inherent in being a plural husband; unconsciously wanting to justify cheating on their wives; unconsciously wanting to drive their current wife away in favor of a replacement wife; etc.), it eventually becomes obvious that their sincerity was built on sand. Some of these people become obvious to the rest of us; sometimes we confront them, and sometimes we don't. Probably most of these people just eventually disappear into the woodwork as they gradually realize that they don't really share the approach supported by this organization. This, in my opinion, characterizes most of the people who are only here for a short time, especially those who flame brightly for a short time and then before long are rarely heard from again. I assert this because, if they were truly sincere adherents, even when they decided that it wasn't for themselves, they would still stick around to provide support for the people here who need it.
  • That leaves 30-60% who are, in a long-term sense, genuinely sincere.
  • It begs to be said, though, that some of the highly sincere people don't necessarily see the online Biblical Families as being of enough value to them or others to justify redirecting their lives to hang out here. Any of us who have been to formal BF gatherings can attest to the fact that there are major (and sincere) contributors to this organization whose participation is pretty much limited to in-person gatherings. Some of us web rats even have people in our own family who are sincere supporters and actively-engaged participants at the retreats who are never or almost never to be found at biblicalfamilies.org.
So my short answer is this: yes, there are people who come and go who we learn weren't really sincere about wanting this lifestyle, but there are too many people to count who have demonstrated (especially in person) that they are entirely sincere about both wanting the lifestyle and wanting to support those who are already engaged in it.

I would further assert that some of your doubts (which are not yours alone) are predominantly surfacing now because we have allowed the mirage of covid pandemia to prevent us from meeting together in large groups.

@Cap, you are well aware of many successful modern-day polygamous families, because you know them in person and they know you personally. What are you trying to achieve with such statements? It sounds like you are trying to make casual readers think that we're all about hypothetical talk and not real action. Obviously not everyone here is polygamous, but you know very well that there are multiple families in this ministry who have been successfully polygamous with marriages lasting >10 years, and more who have married more recently than that. What is your purpose in that line of talk?

Where are all the polygamous families that frequent this site?

Mostly, they are simply being actively engaged in the lifestyle most of the rest of us are hoping for. We do have some people from plural marriages who are actively involved in this web site, but my personal observation is that those people are mostly here because they have passions related to particular exegetical issues they like to thrash away on. And one particular concrete super hero of whom I'm thinking probably only spends as much time on here because he has to spend so much time on the road away from his plural family.

We are here, however, not just for our own support and edification but to provide support to those plural family members of this organization who do not choose to thrash things out online.[/QUOTE]
 
Installment Two:

The idea of patriarchy is what is meant to be understood for families, but polygamy is outdated. It's not that polygamy is wrong it just doesn't serve a universal form of reality in today's world. I am seriously asking, were is the proof of its existence today? All that you wrote seems to me to be wishful thinking. The old testament is full of polygamous references. The new testament has its references to family and marriage, but yet polygamy is left out. Why?

This has already been articulated by others, @Cap, but the supposed dividing line between the 'Old' and the 'New' Testaments is entirely artificial, one of the many abominations that can be laid at the feet of Constantine, the so-called Early Church Fathers and the distorted, paganized Roman Catholic religion that arose from their machinations, supported by Talmudic scholars who were comfortable with anything that created separation from their religion and that of anyone who wanted to believe that something significant happened at Golgotha and the tomb of Christ's Resurrection.

It is all one Book, and it is our Scripture. We're all still in the process of discerning which parts of it apply and to which people and in what circumstances, but there is no truth to the notion that there was some kind of total reset at the birth of Christ, at his crucifixion or at his Resurrection that would justify having to rearticulate every detail covered in previous scripture in order to provide some kind of new legitimacy to what was covered earlier. When God, through His Own Voice or through the voices of His prophets or His Son, deemed it necessary to provide correction or clarification, He did so. Even Christ's ministry went through multiple stages of such correction and/or clarification, including at least two post-Ascension phases when His ministry was conducted through Paul. No need existed to rearticulate what tithing meant, as it was made clear in the Torah (the subsequent organized Christianity religions took it upon themselves to create their own 'clarification' of tithing, bastardizing it into a form of coerced funding of the churches they established that had no scriptural justification). What you're introducing by demanding that some New Testament scriptural proof text has to be submitted in order to justify current-day polygamy qualifies as a red herring. It's a non-issue because, simply put, it's just not an issue. If it were an issue to our Father, He would have ensured that someone said something about it in the scriptures He divinely inspired. That He didn't by definition means that the ongoing understanding of polygamy remains in force, just as tithing should still be something associated with having gatherings to celebrate the love and mightiness of our LORD, or just as guidelines for proper treatment of strangers remain in effect. Or even, as, in a secular context, the latest Congress isn't required to pass all new laws each session in order to make it clear that murder and mayhem are against the law.

You may have fallen into a trap of false logic, and it is one that is so ubiquitously promoted by the Culture of Destruction (and fully supported by Condemnation Christianity) that it becomes invisible because of being the water in which we swim: those intent on remaking our world in their own images assert philosophies that have no empirical justification but demand of their adversaries that they provide rock-solid proof of their philosophies to avoid being condemned. They now have on their side not only the mainstream news media and the public education system from Kindergarten to graduate school but also the frontline Christian churches and even the American Catholic Church in most regards.

I think my goal would be to bring this issue to the church where it is an issue that we can agree to disagree on, such that people like Dr. Luck can hold his view, without being thrown out on his backside, by the ministries that he has worked for, in his proclamation of the gospel message.

It's probably more likely that the Left will one day recognize that they have an unfair advantage in the media and schools -- and offer to turn over half of them to the Right -- than it makes sense to hold our breath for the churches to operate against their own self-interest and end their hammerlock on the ability to create their exclusive clubs to get people to tithe away their income in exchange for official reassurances about salvation.

Hey, who knows, though: maybe leprechauns will build us a new superhighway to Candyland, too!

Helping people to see what is actually in the Bible is a major battle in itself. For an example of another common problem with what people see in the Bible; there is NO evolution or billions of years in the Bible, only divine creation yet many argue for the acceptance of the belief of evolution, forcing it into biblical texts.

Darwinian Evolutionary theory is one of our very best examples of what I wrote above. It is based on a legitimate bedrock of the science of natural selection, but Darwin's theory, offered over 100 years ago and asserted by Darwin himself to be in full danger of failing as a theory if solid fossil evidence weren't discovered within 50 or 100 years, was created in his imagination and supported by nothing more than pencil drawings of so-called evolutionary shifts (of horses, primates, etc.) that are used to this day to hypnotize students into thinking Darwin's theory has become settled science, but as of yet not one bit of solid fossil evidence has been discovered, despite the last century being characterized by major archaeological digs worldwide.

And yet those who want to demand that the New Testament include a major press release on polygamy in most cases don't even question Darwinian Evolutionary theory.

If it is really suppose to be lived today it should be obvious.

Doing the right thing has very often been not only unpopular and uncomfortable but downright dangerous. If one is looking for something obvious, it likely would only exist among the realm of the non-controversial.

Just look at how our country has reacted to covid. Hysteria. Destruction of economies. Personal isolation. Whole populations cowed into wearing useless face diapers through a manufactured terror campaign intended to scare us all to death. If one is looking for the obvious, then it would be easy to conclude that covid surely has to be the worst threat the world has ever faced -- just look at the evidence of how people are behaving in response to it.

Often, though, it is exactly the non-obvious that one should pay attention to rather than expecting that the truth would be obvious. In regard to covid, the non-obvious is represented by what is actually missing that would definitely be not only present but obviously present if it were the threat that the farcical Fauci has brainwashed our country into thinking it is: people would be dropping dead all around us. That's in fact one of the things that was articulated by Fauci, his minions and the media in the early months: oh, no, we better get all these hospitals up and running or we won't be able to stop children from having to walk over dead bodies. But, no, despite it being such a grave danger that we all have to wear face diapers to prevent people from dying with covid and an average of 2.5 comorbidities, no matter where I go I never see people collapsing or expiring with covid symptoms. If it were a real pandemic, as in pandemics of the past, we should be seeing some rotting corpses being carted off. Instead of the ridiculous over-reaction of closing schools for fear that one student might die of covid, we would instead at least see what happened in 2009, when many high schools in America had to shut down because over half of their students were horribly ill with H1N1 swine flu.

Sorry about the rant, but the same is true of polygamy. What is the non-obvious about polygamy? Well, we can start with the total absence of concern for the legions of widows who are out there and who are simply expected to gut up and accept that the rest of their lives will be bereft of deep intimacy, of significant companionship, and of a loneliness that their family members will mostly fail to recognize because they're making all the wrong assumptions. God explained all this through Moses over a thousand years before Christ. Why do we let anyone get away with expecting that He had to explain it all over again in the wake of allowing His only begotten Son to be crucified on our behalf? Especially when His Son articulated the distillation of the Commandments to come down to two, one of them being the requirement to love everyone with whom we associate as we would have them love us. Doesn't that really address polygamy right there? Doesn't it really fall into the need for us to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)? Are we going to have the hubris to assert that we can choose to challenge God's Word on any given matter just because it wasn't rearticulated in our arbitrarily-segmented second-'half' of Scripture?

Even if this ministry did not exist, men would sleep with more than one woman - they have done so throughout all generations.

And, I might add, women would continue to make deliberate efforts to poach men away from their husbands.

There are plenty of marriage ministries that believe polygamy is not valid for today. They have their place. This ministry specifically exists for those people who believe it is valid for today. This is a niche sector of Christianity that is not served by the existing marriage ministries.

Even if you, personally, shift to believing that polygamy is not for today (and you are welcome to change your mind on that), there will still be many Christians who do believe it is valid for today (even if you believe they are wrong). Some of them will get themselves in situations where they need support from a ministry that is willing to see them from a non-judgemental perspective and work with them to find God's will for their life from this day forward. This ministry exists to support these people.

Amen, brother.

I am so very thankful for the fellowship I find here.
 
Thankyou for sharing more of where you're coming from @Cap, and honestly, I can actually empathise with your concerns.

May it be that you have been too focussed on polygamy, to the neglect of the more important aspects of the Gospel? I say that not just as a criticism of you, I think the same criticism could be levelled at many of us for at least a period of our time walking with God.

It is common for people to become overly focussed on one issue, and even when that issue is itself right, the over-focus on it can become a problem. I can think right now of people over-focussed on the errors of Catholicism, on abortion, and on the world being flat, to the point where it gets in the way of them reaching others with the Gospel. Two of those issues are correct in my view, but it's not about correctness or error. All three can become too singular. Polygamy is just another issue that people get too focussed on.

Maybe God is telling you it's time to walk away from preaching polygamy, because He has other work for you to do.

But you don't need to change everything you know to be true in order to move away from it. You may just need to change your focus.

This entire discussion may actually be you continuing to debate the very distraction (polygamy) that God is trying to get you to move away from. Maybe you won't know what His actual next plan for you is until you stop trying to argue either for OR against polygamy today?

So have I.

I see the purpose of this ministry being to promote good marriages, not promote polygamy specifically.

Our first job is to help AVOID that family destruction that we have sadly all seen. I have spent more time telling people "slow down" or "don't go there" than promoting polygamy. People promote polygamy to themselves (sex is attractive). When you've seen both successful and unsuccessful families, you know the differences and you can see the warning signs.

Our second job is to provide support for existing polygamous families - including both those that are fundamentally sound but need support with details, and those that probably shouldn't have begun in the first place but did anyway and are now in a mess they need assistance to rebuild into some semblance of positive marriage. This also includes supporting people in the fallout from unsuccessful polygamy, such as abandoned wives.

There are many people who need our support, and that is precisely because polygamy is difficult and does often result in family destruction when attempted in the modern day. Even if this ministry did not exist, men would sleep with more than one woman - they have done so throughout all generations. Our job is to meet people where they are at today (which may be monogamy, polygamy, or even a mess of interlocking relationships they struggle to describe), help them to see this situation through God's eyes, and steer them in a positive direction from this point forwards.

There are plenty of marriage ministries that believe polygamy is not valid for today. They have their place. This ministry specifically exists for those people who believe it is valid for today. This is a niche sector of Christianity that is not served by the existing marriage ministries.

Even if you, personally, shift to believing that polygamy is not for today (and you are welcome to change your mind on that), there will still be many Christians who do believe it is valid for today (even if you believe they are wrong). Some of them will get themselves in situations where they need support from a ministry that is willing to see them from a non-judgemental perspective and work with them to find God's will for their life from this day forward. This ministry exists to support these people.

If you no longer hold this view, that's absolutely fine. But if so, you may find there is little point in you working in this area of ministry, and God may have work for you elsewhere.

I think you have had sufficient exposure to both positive and negative examples of polygamy that you can probably answer that question for yourself, in the context of a specific situation. It may well be that in the specific situation you have in mind, polygamy is not practical. Every specific situation is different. Obviously I can't say any more than that without knowing more of the situation.

You could be right. One thing I do know, a relationship with God is a journey not a destination. And what goes with that is the fact, and I know we have all seen it, when God closes one door, He opens another. Just like anything God related, some find comfort in reaching a certain plateau, and some climb higher. I'm wondering if there is something greater than polygamy. Maybe time and circumstances will reveal the truth, but all I know is there has to be a reason for all this, it all just doesn't end. Maybe the reason the idea of polygamy is not so prominent in the NT is because we are to look deeper into a relationship with God and not be so focused on our earthly relationships. Not that they are less important but to find their true meaning in the One who created them in the first place.
 
Installment Two:



This has already been articulated by others, @Cap, but the supposed dividing line between the 'Old' and the 'New' Testaments is entirely artificial, one of the many abominations that can be laid at the feet of Constantine, the so-called Early Church Fathers and the distorted, paganized Roman Catholic religion that arose from their machinations, supported by Talmudic scholars who were comfortable with anything that created separation from their religion and that of anyone who wanted to believe that something significant happened at Golgotha and the tomb of Christ's Resurrection.

It is all one Book, and it is our Scripture. We're all still in the process of discerning which parts of it apply and to which people and in what circumstances, but there is no truth to the notion that there was some kind of total reset at the birth of Christ, at his crucifixion or at his Resurrection that would justify having to rearticulate every detail covered in previous scripture in order to provide some kind of new legitimacy to what was covered earlier. When God, through His Own Voice or through the voices of His prophets or His Son, deemed it necessary to provide correction or clarification, He did so. Even Christ's ministry went through multiple stages of such correction and/or clarification, including at least two post-Ascension phases when His ministry was conducted through Paul. No need existed to rearticulate what tithing meant, as it was made clear in the Torah (the subsequent organized Christianity religions took it upon themselves to create their own 'clarification' of tithing, bastardizing it into a form of coerced funding of the churches they established that had no scriptural justification). What you're introducing by demanding that some New Testament scriptural proof text has to be submitted in order to justify current-day polygamy qualifies as a red herring. It's a non-issue because, simply put, it's just not an issue. If it were an issue to our Father, He would have ensured that someone said something about it in the scriptures He divinely inspired. That He didn't by definition means that the ongoing understanding of polygamy remains in force, just as tithing should still be something associated with having gatherings to celebrate the love and mightiness of our LORD, or just as guidelines for proper treatment of strangers remain in effect. Or even, as, in a secular context, the latest Congress isn't required to pass all new laws each session in order to make it clear that murder and mayhem are against the law.

You may have fallen into a trap of false logic, and it is one that is so ubiquitously promoted by the Culture of Destruction (and fully supported by Condemnation Christianity) that it becomes invisible because of being the water in which we swim: those intent on remaking our world in their own images assert philosophies that have no empirical justification but demand of their adversaries that they provide rock-solid proof of their philosophies to avoid being condemned. They now have on their side not only the mainstream news media and the public education system from Kindergarten to graduate school but also the frontline Christian churches and even the American Catholic Church in most regards.



It's probably more likely that the Left will one day recognize that they have an unfair advantage in the media and schools -- and offer to turn over half of them to the Right -- than it makes sense to hold our breath for the churches to operate against their own self-interest and end their hammerlock on the ability to create their exclusive clubs to get people to tithe away their income in exchange for official reassurances about salvation.

Hey, who knows, though: maybe leprechauns will build us a new superhighway to Candyland, too!



Darwinian Evolutionary theory is one of our very best examples of what I wrote above. It is based on a legitimate bedrock of the science of natural selection, but Darwin's theory, offered over 100 years ago and asserted by Darwin himself to be in full danger of failing as a theory if solid fossil evidence weren't discovered within 50 or 100 years, was created in his imagination and supported by nothing more than pencil drawings of so-called evolutionary shifts (of horses, primates, etc.) that are used to this day to hypnotize students into thinking Darwin's theory has become settled science, but as of yet not one bit of solid fossil evidence has been discovered, despite the last century being characterized by major archaeological digs worldwide.

And yet those who want to demand that the New Testament include a major press release on polygamy in most cases don't even question Darwinian Evolutionary theory.



Doing the right thing has very often been not only unpopular and uncomfortable but downright dangerous. If one is looking for something obvious, it likely would only exist among the realm of the non-controversial.

Just look at how our country has reacted to covid. Hysteria. Destruction of economies. Personal isolation. Whole populations cowed into wearing useless face diapers through a manufactured terror campaign intended to scare us all to death. If one is looking for the obvious, then it would be easy to conclude that covid surely has to be the worst threat the world has ever faced -- just look at the evidence of how people are behaving in response to it.

Often, though, it is exactly the non-obvious that one should pay attention to rather than expecting that the truth would be obvious. In regard to covid, the non-obvious is represented by what is actually missing that would definitely be not only present but obviously present if it were the threat that the farcical Fauci has brainwashed our country into thinking it is: people would be dropping dead all around us. That's in fact one of the things that was articulated by Fauci, his minions and the media in the early months: oh, no, we better get all these hospitals up and running or we won't be able to stop children from having to walk over dead bodies. But, no, despite it being such a grave danger that we all have to wear face diapers to prevent people from dying with covid and an average of 2.5 comorbidities, no matter where I go I never see people collapsing or expiring with covid symptoms. If it were a real pandemic, as in pandemics of the past, we should be seeing some rotting corpses being carted off. Instead of the ridiculous over-reaction of closing schools for fear that one student might die of covid, we would instead at least see what happened in 2009, when many high schools in America had to shut down because over half of their students were horribly ill with H1N1 swine flu.

Sorry about the rant, but the same is true of polygamy. What is the non-obvious about polygamy? Well, we can start with the total absence of concern for the legions of widows who are out there and who are simply expected to gut up and accept that the rest of their lives will be bereft of deep intimacy, of significant companionship, and of a loneliness that their family members will mostly fail to recognize because they're making all the wrong assumptions. God explained all this through Moses over a thousand years before Christ. Why do we let anyone get away with expecting that He had to explain it all over again in the wake of allowing His only begotten Son to be crucified on our behalf? Especially when His Son articulated the distillation of the Commandments to come down to two, one of them being the requirement to love everyone with whom we associate as we would have them love us. Doesn't that really address polygamy right there? Doesn't it really fall into the need for us to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)? Are we going to have the hubris to assert that we can choose to challenge God's Word on any given matter just because it wasn't rearticulated in our arbitrarily-segmented second-'half' of Scripture?



And, I might add, women would continue to make deliberate efforts to poach men away from their husbands.



Amen, brother.

I am so very thankful for the fellowship I find here.

Keith, I know you spent a great deal of time responding to my search and I hear what you are saying. But I must say this, not because I want to get into a debate about it, especially here, but I feel it needs to be corrected, at least from my own point of view going forward.

I completely and sincerely reject this idea of the melding of the scriptural works of the Old Covenant and New Covenant writings. There is a difference, and at the bare minimum, a 400 years difference. This 'joining" idea has all the markings of being a way of justifying a legalistic view about God to dispense with the idea of Grace. Two separate things. They each have their purpose and to combine them is a lie. They each can not be understood if they are blender together.

However, it is making sense to me why this would surface now, in my quest to find the true meaning of polygamy.
 
we are unfair to polygamy when we expect it to not only avoid being disastrous but expect it to have a better track record than monogamy. Instead of accepting that it be only as successful or perhaps even just a little less likely to succeed than monogamy (given its increased challenges and the manner in which our culture is dead-set on laying waste to it), we polygamy-promoters have a bad habit of falling into the trap of expecting that polygamous marriages should always be outstanding examples of shining Christhood -- unconsciously assuming that we have something to prove to those who would work to destroy us.
Golden. Nice!
 
It is all one Book, and it is our Scripture. We're all still in the process of discerning which parts of it apply and to which people and in what circumstances, but there is no truth to the notion that there was some kind of total reset at the birth of Christ, at his crucifixion or at his Resurrection that would justify having to rearticulate every detail covered in previous scripture in order to provide some kind of new legitimacy to what w
Keith is on a roll!
 
Entire sections of the OT were written many years apart from the others and we are now 2000 years away from the NT. Is the NT now obsolete?

Those in Christ, the NT is an ongoing story. Those who live in the story of the OT want to force Christ to fit their narrative. Why don't you guys bring out your alleged proof in another section. I am still hoping someone will come up with answers to this thread that might be beneficial.
 
I completely and sincerely reject this idea of the melding of the scriptural works of the Old Covenant and New Covenant writings. There is a difference, and at the bare minimum, a 400 years difference.
@Cap does have a point here.

Firstly, the writings we use as the Protestant Old Testament are those which the Masoretic Jews chose as canonical. The writings we use as the New Testament are those which the Catholic church chose as canonical. These are two selections by two completely different groups for completely different purposes. I can understand it being seen as naive to just stick them together and assume they link perfectly.
Of course if you're using a Catholic or Orthodox bible you've got a selection of books that was made by Christians for a single purpose without that 400 year gap, so this objection is less relevant.

Secondly, the traditional position of the Church has been that there is a clear difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, basically in the way that @Cap has described. He is not stating anything strange and heretical, he is repeating an orthodox and entirely reasonable position (whether or not it is correct).

I'm not agreeing with @Cap, but I am saying that I can understand his concern.
 
This is where I back out with my discussion with you because it usually ends bad for me.

I'm still interested in finding out if anyone has good response to those who bring up polygamy is not on the NT.
I thought there were several references in the FAQ section weren’t there? The parable of the virgins comes to mind as well as the requirements for elders and the admonition for men to have their own women and a woman to belong to one man. We’re those brought up already?
 
@Cap does have a point here.

Firstly, the writings we use as the Protestant Old Testament are those which the Masoretic Jews chose as canonical. The writings we use as the New Testament are those which the Catholic church chose as canonical. These are two selections by two completely different groups for completely different purposes. I can understand it being seen as naive to just stick them together and assume they link perfectly.
Of course if you're using a Catholic or Orthodox bible you've got a selection of books that was made by Christians for a single purpose without that 400 year gap, so this objection is less relevant.

Secondly, the traditional position of the Church has been that there is a clear difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, basically in the way that @Cap has described. He is not stating anything strange and heretical, he is repeating an orthodox and entirely reasonable position (whether or not it is correct).

I'm not agreeing with @Cap, but I am saying that I can understand his concern.
I would push back on the selection of the Old Testament books, it’s a little bit more nuanced than just that the Masoretes rejected some. Most of them claim to be written after the accepted 3rd century A.D translation of the Septuagint, and so most of them wouldn’t have appeared there either. Also throughout the centuries a majority of Christian scholars have always put the Apocrypha in a separate and lesser category. This isn’t one that can be hung on the post-Christian Jews trying to dispute the new off-shoot religion. A plurality of Christians have always accepted that these books are not divinely inspired scripture.
 
Two separate things. They each have their purpose and to combine them is a lie. They each can not be understood if they are blender together.

If you understood me to say they were blended together, you misunderstood me, @Cap. Scripture isn't something one can put into a blender, chop up into tiny pieces and drink down whole to get the entire serious of individual and collective messages. It's not a matter of blending; it's a matter, in one of many distinct respects the Bible characterizes, of presenting the histories of connected peoples and the history of the revelation of the Word of God. Keep in mind that even the Canon is arbitrary; otherwise, we grant those early creators of the Roman Catholic Church far too much power to determine the exact nature of Scripture for us as members of the Body of Christ. Aside from @Mojo's excellent point about the 2-millennia gap since Paul's final letter until present day being a far larger chasm than the 4-centuries one between Malachi and Matthew. @The Revolting Man Revolting is correct that the Apocrypha and other entries now accepted as part of the Catholic Canon are not considered by most Christian scholars to have enough weight to be considered scripture, but at the same time the Maccabees at least provide a relatively good stop-gap as far as the history of the Israelites goes during the supposedly insurmountable gap. Keep in mind, also, that a Christian leader/scholar as weighty as Martin Luther was opposed to the Canon in place at his time, which is pretty much the one represented by the KJV. Luther considered James to be of other than divine origin, partly because it was very specifically directed to Jews, whether followers of Christ or not, and politicked for its removal from the Canon. He also pointed out that the creators of the Canon actually subtracted material from some books and added some to others. All this is to say that the Divine Word of God has taken somewhat of a beating from its human handlers over the centuries. Different groups have had widely varying agendas that polluted what they inserted into scripture to fit those agendas, and this problem wasn't absent when the various Canons were established.

Some reasons exist to think of the post-Christ books to be considered separate, but the regular references to previous scriptures by Paul and others provides all the indication I need to convince me that they, the writers of the 'New Testament' books, considered it to all be of one piece.
 
In my understanding as explained in the Bible, it's only the law related to ...that changed. Christ diying took away put sins and there was no need for all those rites that were being done for sin....
He himself said he came to accomplish the law.

1. God being perfect can't identify himself with something that's sinful( the 10 virgins). If polygamy is a sin, then the example should have been the perfect example of marriage according to modern church that is monogamy. Saying 2 virgins, one wise and one foolish and he chooses one. Why 10??)
2. Even if husband of one wife means being monogamous, why specify? Meaning the lambda people can be monogamous and it's not a si!

I understand your concerns as you're living in the western world where monogamy is a must (serial monogamy)

For your information in Africa in many countries polygamy is legal and official.

In my country, it's not in the law but I will tell you that there are many, many families that are polygamist.
From the president to x-y people.
All the politicians in Africa have many wives.
In Africa when you have money you have many wives.
Now there is pressure from western countries, modern Christians, feminist group.
Christianity came from colonialism but they didn't really emphasise on that issue.
It's when the revival started that many men to be baptised were forced to keep only the 1st wife.

In Africa men able to get married ( the age, the mean...) are very very few compared to women.
The ratio is 1 man for may be 4 women.

And as many people now go to church, they can't mary more than one.
What they do is awful.

They have girlfriends, may be renting a house, having kids that are not recognize, lying to their wives.
They have double or triple lives.
Sometimes it's when the person passes away that the truth comes out.

What's sad in all this, women not being able to find men happily goes out with married men, knowing they won't marry them but at least they have men in their lives. Some irresponsible men when those women are pregnantand penniless, they just abandon them. Some women are rejected by the family, saying they brought shame.

Some men are monogamous some are not.
Forcing the nature has created a lot of issues.
 
The devil knows that the base of the society, the world is the family. When it is destroyed it destroys the world.

Giving power to women (power that they didn't have)
Bringing equality has brought many issues in marriages.
Women say if a man can have many a woman can also(that's a sin)

Now in marriage women think they have the same power as men.

An example in my country when a married woman was found with a guy they would be arrested. That was not the case for men.
Now if a married man or woman is found with a person who is not the spouse they are arrested (if the spouse complains)

Men are forced to accept the power given to women and it creates tensionin the couple. The wife wanna know everything and have control over everything.
She wanna have the last word.
And even asks the man to cook, clean the house, ......

We know God created the man as the chief of the family.
So the man either beats up on the rebellious wife or put away the wife or goes and takes another one or even murder.

So we see great division in the family.
The rate of divorce in Africa goes on increasing every year.
 
it’s a little bit more nuanced than just that the Masoretes rejected some.
Of course. I was summarising.

However, there are some oddities, Baruch standing out for instance. Baruch was Jeremiah's scribe, is repeatedly mentioned in Jeremiah, and the last chapter of Baruch is explicitly written by Jeremiah himself (and has been found in Hebrew at Qumran). This discussion includes various quotes of early church fathers listing the books of the Old Testament. Although each list differs slightly, the common theme is that Baruch is fairly consistently included alongside Jeremiah and Lamentations, while many minor prophets are omitted along with occasionally Esther. Importantly, each states that their list is based on what books the Jews were using at the time - meaning the Jews at the time of the early church may have accepted Baruch as more canonical than many of the minor prophets. But the Masoretes decided to reject Baruch, contrary to the practice of both the Christian church and other branches of Judaism. It probably doesn't matter enormously, Baruch is a good book but doesn't include anything that you can't also learn from elsewhere. It is however peculiar and makes you wonder about what decision-making process was used.

But this is a tangent, sorry.
 
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