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Who was the second witness to Paul seeing Christ, besides Paul?
Your 2 Cor 11 verses all say little 'a' apostle. I don't dispute that.
And I would agree with your note.
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Does a husbands authority wax and wane?
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Who was the second witness to Paul seeing Christ, besides Paul?
Your 2 Cor 11 verses all say little 'a' apostle. I don't dispute that.
And I would agree with your note.
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The catch all would be what I'm referring to.
That’s interesting, because Peter said it was from Jesus Christ.
How do you make those kinds of leaps in logic? Did i say that God only lives in a book? Did i say God isn’t alive and well today? Did i say that God doesn’t work in every or any aspect of our lives? Do you read scripture the way you read my post, devoid of context? I’m sorry if that sounds harsh, but i am concerned that you ignore context when you read scripture, and simply interject, whatever comes to mind, into the text.
I came to understand salvation in the same way that every other born again believer does. The Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin, I heard the Good News that Jesus Christ died on the cross to take the penalty for my sin, and God gave me the measure of faith to believe and repent of my sins. I am saved by grace alone, through faith alone.
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My statements are general and not referencing you in particular. Your comments are just the frame work for my response. Nothing personal. I don't even know you. And I surely an not questioning your faith or salvation.
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The point here for me is that Paul is an apostle, but not one of the Apostles. The seventy could do the works of Christ. The point of all that is to show that apostles have purpose AFTER the resurrection and ascension of Christ.
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Ok?
My other question still stands. Here’s the question again:
One thing you said forces me to ask, do you believe that Jesus performed miracles, signs, and wonders by the power of The Holy Spirit or by his own power as God in human flesh?
Do you hold the concept of the Trinity?
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You are.
The biblical requirements for an Apostle (office of Apostle, as apposed to missionaries, “sent ones”) are that they had seen Christ in his glorified body with their own eyes “eye witnesses”and they had received the Gospel from Jesus directly. I don’t know of anyone today who can seriously claim such credentials. The Apostle Paul said, “And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.” 1 Corinthians 15:8 KJV. If Paul was the last to see him, and as he says he was “as of one born out of due time” anyone claiming to be an Apostle today has some splaining to do. Paul said that he didn’t learn the Gospel from any man but that he learned it directly from God. There is not a list of requirements for the office of Apostle as there is for elders and such, because the office of The Apostles is filled and is not taking applications.
You seem to be saying that, in reference to other posts made, that Paul was one of the original 12 apostles and that his office is unique to that position. I am saying that Paul was not one of the 12. (What was Mathias?) Paul was just an apostle "sent one" that received revelation of Christ AFTER His resurrection and ascension, no different than any man after the fact that claims revelation from Christ, even to this day. The difference in them would be the fruit they produce. Paul appears to produce pretty good fruit so it has become obvious that he did receive something, but he was not one of the 12 Apostles. That's a catholic thing.
Acts 14:14 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:
It appears Barnabas is in the same class as Paul here. Did Barnabas 'see' the Son of God.
All of this is being said because you were questioning the work of the Holy Spirit in regards to 'anointing' in the first place. Maybe I am confused as what exactly you are questioning.
John 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
There is more, but I will let you answer your own question.
Acts 22:6-16 6 “About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’ 8 “‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. “ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. 9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
Paul didn't 'see' the Son of God, he only claims to have heard him. An eye witness is to a crime, or other activity that effects another. The activity was Christ being seen, or in this case heard.. There was nothing to 'eye witness' it's just a claim he made. In any event, if Paul is the first 'eye witness' to the activity who is the second? It later appears to turn out to have merit because of the fruit, but even the 'A'postles questioned it. Eventually others left him. It all makes me wonder.
It was almost impossible that he wouldn't have given Paul's proximity to power and presence in Jerusalem. I know this isn't proof. It's possible that he came sometime between the Crucifixion and the stoning of Stephen but it seems unlikely. I've always thought he was the rich young ruler who didn't answer Christ's call to sell all he owned. That way Paul was actually called to be an apostle by Christ during His earthly ministry. That of course is wild speculation but I like how it ties everything up in a neat bow.
You said “Paul didn't 'see' the Son of God, he only claims to have heard him”, that is FALSE.
1 Corinthians 15:8 KJV
And last of all he was SEEN of me also, as of one born out of due time.
You are taking the two or three witnesses thing out of context. Do you question whether or not Moses saw the burning bush in the desert? I’m not aware of any other witnesses to that except maybe some sheep. Do you question whether or not God inscribed the tablets of stone on mount Sinai? Or how about Jonah being in the belly of the great fish? No “witnesses” there as far as i know. Or how about John on the isle of Patmos? We have no witnesses to verify what he was seeing in his vision.
In regard to my question, that I have had to reiterate several times, stop being coy and just answer the question.
You seem to think that I don’t believe that God can or does miracles today. This is not true. I do believe he can and that he does so where and when he chooses. Miracles are quite rare today, and they have been rare throughout history. The tremendous signs that God preformed through Moses where done to be a sign to the children of Israel and the world to pay attention, God is using this man to bring the Word of God and write it down.
It was the same with the Apostles, God preformed miraculous signs, “the signs of an Apostle”, through them to tell, first Israel and then the gentiles to pay attention, God is laying down the written Word through them.
These people going around claiming to be in the office of Apostle are charlatans. Anyone who claims to be a living Apostle is either deceived or deceiving. The signs of an Apostle are signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. If you find somebody doing those things you let me know.
Revelation 2:2 KJV
[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
We are not supposed to just take someone’s word that they are an Apostle.
We did with Paul.
Just curious, are you in the belief of dispensationalism? If so, certain discussions won’t take us very far. I’ve got many friends that are dispensationalists. On the other hand, I’ve got many friends who are not. Personally, I go by what Jesus said that he is not going to change a crossed t or a dotted I.
Mathew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
This, to me, is confirmation on many of the teachings and discussions on this site.
I still haven’t had the time to pull out old studies to discuss this in more detail, but I’ve been keeping up with your thoughts. Very much like my last pastor. Your convictions are strong. I like that, I disagree with you on some things and agree with you on others.
No worries, jump in whenever you’re ready
That is not true, Christ preformed the signs of an Apostle through Paul, verifying that he was one. Peter also bore witness of Paul’s Apostleship. We are not just taking Paul’s word for it.
I am not a dispensationalist. I have no problem with God preforming miracles today like he did through the Apostles. However, that isn’t happening, let’s be real here. The so called healing ministries today are a joke. Many of them have been exposed for the shams they are. Christ and the Apostles preformed miracles that were so, in your face, that even their enemies couldn’t deny or brush them off as fake. “Healers” today “heal” people of things like headaches, back pain, and joint pain. Come on, really?! There are plenty of people that are missing limbs, dying of cancer, and suffering with ms and other diseases, heal those people.
I think we often times forget what the miracles are for and we focus on them, when in fact the miracles we see in scripture point us to Christ. The Gospel that Christ died and rose again so that we who were dead in trespasses and sins, might live in Christ, is the biggest miracle of all.
We have the signs and miracles recorded in scripture, we don’t need ongoing signs to re-inflate our faith or to share the Gospel with someone. In fact, look at what Jesus said in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:28-31 KJV
That phrase “Moses and the prophets” is a direct reference to the written Word of God. That is all we need to preach the Gospel to sinners, and if we need more Christ will preform whatever miracles are needed. He’s the one who preforms the miracles and if he isn’t preforming them we don’t need to try and work up some sort of healing anointing.
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This is all getting confusing. You say Paul is an Apostle, one of the 12. I say he is not, but an apostle nevertheless. He has a message to believers. Somehow faith healing got thrown in there. I am confused. I'm not questioning your faith at all. You may see things different then I do about what that faith can do but that doesn't make either of us wrong. Can you restate what we are talking about.
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