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Do all women need a "covering"? And what is a "covering"?

Not arguing against your point necessarily, but my question is if the passage is not referring to a physical covering, but rather authority, then why is the man told not to have his head covered. Remember that the head of man is Christ, so is the man not to be under the authority of Christ when he prays? The authority element doesn’t seem to hold solid as the theme here.
To me a woman only had authority covering her when she had someone between her and Christ. I apply it the same way to a man. For example the man is to be uncovered. Does that mean that God and Christ are not his authorities? I say no. A woman is to be covered, does that mean that God and Christ are not her authorities? I also say no. The way a woman is covered is by someone(not God or Christ) holding authority over her. I apply to the same way to a man.

I don't see Christ as covering or not covering the man or woman although He most certainly does hold authority over all things.

How do I see a man being covered? The Catholic church is a great example where they say you must go through their authority to get to God. Many religions hold these same views. Another interesting thing is that if a woman takes the lead in her house then the man is covered by her and she in uncovered! Talk about backwards.

To me nature shows that a man shouldn't have long hair being the glory of God, and a woman should being the glory of man. God made man to not be covered by man. And God made woman to be covered by man. The difference in how He created our hair to be shows this difference in how apply it. Nature does not teach us that a man shouldn't wear a cloth while praying, it teaches us that he is to be the head of woman and no man is to be his head. The same for woman, how does nature teach me that a woman shouldn't pray or prophesy while wearing a cloth (physical covering) but nature teaches us that woman is the weaker vessel, easily deceived. And that she needs to have authority to match the covering that God gave her.

Man intended to have short hair with no covering. His short hair symbolizes his need to be uncovered

Woman intended to have long hair and to be covered. Her hair symbolizes the need to be covered.
 
For what reason do you ignore and reject the clear definition of the greek words used in the passage that describe a physical “covering” that obscures vision?

Why are you spiritualizing this instead of reading the plain meaning of the words?

There is some underlying reason you have not disclosed. Does this have to do with something you came up against earlier this year with established church elders?
 
For what reason do you ignore and reject the clear definition of the greek words used in the passage that describe a physical “covering” that obscures vision?

Why are you spiritualizing this instead of reading the plain meaning of the words?

There is some underlying reason you have not disclosed. Does this have to do with something you came up against earlier this year with established church elders?
No, nothing personally attached to this whatsoever.

The word you are describing is only used twice in the NT and both happen to be in this passage. Im not disagreeing that we see the word in the Septuagint.

There are many passages through scripture, many figures even that use literal, physical words. Im not disagreeing with the language. But Paul uses the hair to symbolize this as well. What does long hair symbolize to you?

In verse 10, there is a word called authority. They (scholars) use it symbolically here yet this is the only place they do so. The other 92 times in the new Testament translate it as authority. Can scholars make errors? Verse 10 to me shows a clear error.
 
For what reason do you ignore and reject the clear definition of the greek words used in the passage that describe a physical “covering” that obscures vision?

Why are you spiritualizing this instead of reading the plain meaning of the words?

There is some underlying reason you have not disclosed. Does this have to do with something you came up against earlier this year with established church elders?
Psalm 23
4Also -- when I walk in a valley of death-shade, I fear no evil, for Thou art with me, Thy rod and Thy staff -- they comfort me.

The words here imply a real rod and a real staff. Do you have a literal physical rod that God comforts you with?
 
So to me it teaches that a man while praying or prophesying should not have authority on his head and a woman while praying or prophesying should have authority covering her head.
What would this authority be for the man? You’ve said Christ but that doesn’t work. In this analogy Christ is the head, as verse 3 says. Verse 4 immediately states that the man should not cover that head. You say that cover is authority. What authority could a man put on his head which is Christ? None. You have an irreconcilable conundrum here. You have to resolve this or you risk subordinating Christ to man.
You don't think this is the assembly because you don't understand what prophesying is used for.
Well that’s a little insulting but we’ll skip that. I don’t think so because it doesn’t say so. You’re adding that. You need to make that case quite explicitly. This is another area your whole interpretation hinges on and it’s not in the text.
Does this mean that a man should put authority between him and his head?
According to you he can. I don’t think so because I think it’s just telling men to take their hats off when they pray. Why are you trying to get me to resolve problems with your idea? Claiming verse 4-7 is about a man putting authority on his head is your idea. I’m explicitly rejecting it.
Does this mean a woman should take off her authority? No verses 7-15 shows this.
Verse 7-15 do not show this. Verse 10 is the only verse in that comes close. Verse 10 is difficult, very difficult. The phrase “because of the messengers” means anything that rest solely on this verse is going to be highly speculative.

Does that mean we shave everyone that doesn't? No, I don't believe so.

Why not? The text does say that. You’re going to edit out something that it says, shave her, and add in something that it isn’t there, the assembly. That’s sketchy.
Do I personally think all women should have authority on their head? Yes I do and so does verse 10.
Does it? You haven’t made that case either. You want to make verse 10 the controlling verse for the whole passage, it’s not.
 
You say that cover is authority. What authority could a man put on his head which is Christ?
Do ye not know that who you yield yourself to obey, his servant ye are?

If a man prays to YHWH, yet acknowledges any authority over him but YHWH, he dishonors his head.

I think of the younger prophet that disobeyed YHWH because he listened to the older prophet. I think about every professing Christian man that jokingly calls his wife "The boss" and also any man with a household who leans on a pastor for leadership instead of YHWH.

A govornment with man made laws is bondage and a false God.
 
What would this authority be for the man? You’ve said Christ but that doesn’t work. In this analogy Christ is the head, as verse 3 says. Verse 4 immediately states that the man should not cover that head. You say that cover is authority. What authority could a man put on his head which is Christ? None. You have an irreconcilable conundrum here. You have to resolve this or you risk subordinating Christ to man.
A man being covered would be another man (or woman). I apply it like i apply it to the woman. A woman is not covered by Christ but is covered by a man. Does that mean that Christ is not the authority. No it doesn't. A woman can be covered by a man because she is the glory of man. A man cannot be covered by a man because he is the Glory of God. The way a man is covered is different being the glory of God. Although he has Christ as his authority, he remains uncovered by and person to reflect the Glory of God. He has short hair to reflect this as well.
According to you he can. I don’t think so because I think it’s just telling men to take their hats off when they pray. Why are you trying to get me to resolve problems with your idea? Claiming verse 4-7 is about a man putting authority on his head is your idea. I’m explicitly rejecting it
You mention hats, can you explain the regulations of this head covering? How does it need to cover the hair? All the hair, 50%, 25%, none of the hair? Does it need to cover the head? What are the parameters of this physical covering? Is a Yamaha a head covering?
Verse 7-15 do not show this. Verse 10 is the only verse in that comes close. Verse 10 is difficult, very difficult. The phrase “because of the messengers” means anything that rest solely on this verse is going to be highly speculative.
Is says a woman should be covered. She came from man. Paul teaches authority structure through these verses and uses nature itself as an example. Woman was given long hair to symbolize that she needed to be covered.
Why not? The text does say that. You’re going to edit out something that it says, shave her, and add in something that it isn’t there, the assembly. That’s sketchy.
If prophesying is for the edification of the assembly then where is the woman prophesying?
Verse 17 and 18 are in context of this teaching of coverings.

So, do you shave every woman who doesn't have a physical head covering while praying or prophesying? Or what do you believe it says?
Does it? You haven’t made that case either. You want to make verse 10 the controlling verse for the whole passage, it’s not.
It doesn't need to control it, it fits the context of the whole passage. Man is the head of woman. Woman came from man. Woman has long hair to teach us this. Woman ought to have authority over her head.
 
Do ye not know that who you yield yourself to obey, his servant ye are?

If a man prays to YHWH, yet acknowledges any authority over him but YHWH, he dishonors his head.

I think of the younger prophet that disobeyed YHWH because he listened to the older prophet. I think about every professing Christian man that jokingly calls his wife "The boss" and also any man with a household who leans on a pastor for leadership instead of YHWH.

A govornment with man made laws is bondage and a false God.
I agree but that’s not what’s going on in 1 Corinthians. A man is being told to uncover his head. The cover is defined as “authority” and the head is Christ. There is no way for this arrangement to work. The definitions have to be wrong.
 
A man being covered would be another man (or woman).
Absolutely not, remember this covering is sometimes legitimate when the man isn’t praying or prophesying. A man and especially a woman would never be a legitimate covering for a man. I can think of no instance in scripture where we’re offered any potential covering for a man other than Christ. And under your interpretation that would require a man to place authority on Christ, which is a complete non-starter to the point of heresy. Verse 3 says Christ is the man’s head so verse if verse 4 doesn’t shift gears to talking about the physical then you have to make your definition work with Christ as the head of the man. Good luck. This will be my new drum beat. You can’t do it.
You mention hats, can you explain the regulations of this head covering? How does it need to cover the hair? All the hair, 50%, 25%, none of the hair? Does it need to cover the head? What are the parameters of this physical covering?
You’re trying to employ absurdity again. It says to not cover the head. I don’t think you can lawyer that one but I could be wrong. How about just don’t have anything on your head while praying? Why is that hard?
Is a Yamaha a head covering?
No. It’s a motorcycle or a guitar.
If prophesying is for the edification of the assembly then where is the woman prophesying?
Prophesying does not only happen in the assembly. You haven’t even begun to prove that. Are you talking about public use or tongues? Personal prophecies are quite common though. Nathan to David, Eli to Hannah, the angel to Sarah. That list goes on and on.
So, do you shave every woman who doesn't have a physical head covering while praying or prophesying? Or what do you believe it says?
Good point. I don’t do this either.
It doesn't need to control it, it fits the context of the whole passage. Man is the head of woman. Woman came from man. Woman has long hair to teach us this. Woman ought to have authority over her head.
Verse 10 is the central point of your entire take on the passage. You’ve decided there’s only one idea from verse 3 on and it’s in verse 10. That was a lot of talk about hair, heads and covering though if all God wanted to say was, “Get married or live in your father’s house.” Especially since He didn’t say either of those things in the whole passage.

Now I’m getting angry again. Think about that. Your only take away from the whole passage isn’t stated anywhere in it. Does that not bother you?
 
You’re trying to employ absurdity again. It says to not cover the head. I don’t think you can lawyer that one but I could be wrong. How about just don’t have anything on your head while praying? Why is that hard?
No I'm not. I think its a fair question that many will have about wearing a physical covering. The word that y'all are applying literally implies obscuring, blocking from vision. I think it's completely fair to ask what qualifies and what doesn't. Is a headband a covering or not? Are safety ear muffs a covering or not? What is the parameters of the head covering. Does it have to cover the hair or just the head?

No. It’s a motorcycle or a guitar.
Lol
 
No I'm not. I think its a fair question that many will have about wearing a physical covering. The word that y'all are applying literally implies obscuring, blocking from vision. I think it's completely fair to ask what qualifies and what doesn't. Is a headband a covering or not? Are safety ear muffs a covering or not? What is the parameters of the head covering. Does it have to cover the hair or just the head?


Lol
I’m not going to try and be specific where the text isn’t. If it says don’t obscure, which seems really weird if you’re interpretation is correct since women would be told to be obscuring their husband but then nothing about your take on this has made sense, then don’t obscure your head during prayer. You’re capable of following your conscience on the particulars.
 
No I'm not. I think its a fair question that many will have about wearing a physical covering. The word that y'all are applying literally implies obscuring, blocking from vision. I think it's completely fair to ask what qualifies and what doesn't. Is a headband a covering or not? Are safety ear muffs a covering or not? What is the parameters of the head covering. Does it have to cover the hair or just the head?


Lol
Wait, you’re telling me that you know that covering in this context is to obscure but you still maintain it’s male headship?
 
Wait, you’re telling me that you know that covering in this context is to obscure but you still maintain it’s male headship?
Just using the definition you and Nick were using. Nick said it must be physical because it obscures. I never said that.

Strong's Definitions: κατακαλύπτω katakalýptō, kat-ak-al-oop'-to; from G2596 and G2572; to cover wholly, i.e. veil:—cover, hide.

This is the definition that the scholars have decided on.
 
Just using the definition you and Nick were using. Nick said it must be physical because it obscures. I never said that.

Strong's Definitions: κατακαλύπτω katakalýptō, kat-ak-al-oop'-to; from G2596 and G2572; to cover wholly, i.e. veil:—cover, hide.

This is the definition that the scholars have decided on.
And have you looked up the root word Kata in the LXX? You gonna let God define the word with the use? Or are you going to continue using your own definition that does not conform to scripture?
 
And have you looked up the root word Kata in the LXX? You gonna let God define the word with the use? Or are you going to continue using your own definition that does not conform to scripture?
I agree that kata when used in the Septuagint as a Hebrew substitute it can mean a literal covering. But that's only half of the word that your addressing. The other half of the word used for cover is G2572 - kalyptō. This word is used as a figurative covering for sin in both the OT and NT. It's used figuratively in the OT in many places in the Septuagint as well.

Strong's Definitions: κατακαλύπτω katakalýptō, kat-ak-al-oop'-to; from G2596 and G2572; to cover wholly, i.e. veil:—cover, hide

This is the the word we see used in verse 6 and verse 7.


Here are the two words that make it.

Kata which is a preposition and Kalypto which is a verb. The verb is what we see used figuratively often in the scripture.

Strong's Definitions: κατά katá, kat-ah'; a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):—about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) × alone, among, and, × apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), × aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, (charita-)bly, concerning, + covered, (dai-)ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, × more excellent, for, from … to, godly, in(-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), … by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, × natural, of (up-)on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) × own, + particularly, so, through(-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-)to(-gether, -ward), × uttermost, where(-by), with

Outline of Biblical Usage:
  1. down from, through out
  2. according to, toward, along

KJV Translation Count: 480x
The KJV translates Strongs G2596 in the following manner: according to (107x), after (61x), against (58x), in (36x), by (27x), daily (with G2250) (15x), as (11x), misc (165x).



Strong's Definitions: καλύπτω kalýptō, kal-oop'-to; akin to G2813 and G2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively):—cover, hide

Outline of Biblical Usage:
  1. to hide, veil
    1. to hinder the knowledge of a thing
KJV Translation Count: 8x
The KJV translates Strongs G2572 in the following manner: cover (5x), hide (3x).
 
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