So there was this really cute movie that was on Netflix a while back called "Arranged". If you get the chance I think you all would enjoy it. Does anyone feel called to be an official matchmaker?
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Churchianity Lacks PRACTICAL Answers For Single Women!
- Thread starter Frank S
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So there was this really cute movie that was on Netflix a while back called "Arranged". If you get the chance I think you all would enjoy it. Does anyone feel called to be an official matchmaker?
Please do! We need way more of that. There was a time when parents and family took an active role and putting people together. Marriages were better then.
I hope you realize that we are in a group where the cultural norms and what passes for common sense does not necessarily apply.
Because of the very nature of our beliefs, a higher level of awareness is naturally maintained.
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Hopefully I didn’t just sign up for something by clicking the Like button.....So there was this really cute movie that was on Netflix a while back called "Arranged". If you get the chance I think you all would enjoy it. Does anyone feel called to be an official matchmaker?
Oh I do. But by definition, it means 'the rules', whatever they are, won't be obvious.
That is what is so difficult about this subject for young men, especially socially awkward ones. They have a hard enough time meeting girls under normal conditions. Throw in uncertain and changing cultural expectations and it's a mine field. As I said before, the social expectations in these situations vary across denominations and within and from father to father.
I'm a father of daughters and I'm not yet even sure what the rules should be for my girls.
I agree, and that is why I would recommend a third party or father to father approach
I would want your daughters to feel comfortable coming to a retreat and not as if they were on display at a meat market. Erring on the side of too many apparent unwritten rules for the males doesn’t seem problematic to me in protecting the girls.
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Btw:
I have attended several retreats with a young lady under my wing and was approached by gentlemen who were interested.
At one retreat she was approached by a young man’s mother, who was deflected to me.
So yes, this is a sub-culture with its own standards.
I have attended several retreats with a young lady under my wing and was approached by gentlemen who were interested.
At one retreat she was approached by a young man’s mother, who was deflected to me.
So yes, this is a sub-culture with its own standards.
It does if it goes to far and prevents people from getting to know one another and eventually couple up. It seems to me half the point of these things is so our children have a chance to meet others and see that there is a future in the way of life we're teaching; that they'll be able to find a spouse one day (or today). If they don't see that possibility, they'll chart their own paths.
I don't know if that is the case here. I've never been to the get togethers, I don't even know what all the non-obvious unwritten rules are. I just know they're not obvious and frustrating enough for at least one young man to wash his hands of us.
You know people are always saying.... go to church, marry a Christian woman, etc. etc. Yet I can't count how many times I've heard young men say they're treated like predators for trying to meet women at church. Where exactly do we expect them to find Christian women but in churches? And we're surprised when little Susie gets knocked up by a druggie and runs off with him.
This thread is about how churchianity lacks practical answers for singles. Are we any better? What are our answers?
This is a fascinating discussion on getting to know others in a patriarchical culture as opposed to an egalitarian culture. Probably worthy of it's own thread.
I think in our modern American egalitarian culture each person is an autonomous individual where in a patriarchical culture each person has a head and that head has set guidelines for their families. In an egalitarian culture you're interacting with the individual and in a patriarchical culture you're interacting with a member of a patriarch's family.
I think that the disintegration of the patriarchy in American culture has allowed the government to step in as the provider and protector of woman and they have set in law their guidelines for interacting with others. In a patriarchical culture it is difficult to navigate social interactions when those guidelines are not known. So I think the best approach would be to go to the head of the family and find out what those guidelines are.
I'm not saying that one patriarch's guidelines are better than another's but to find out what they are.
I think in our modern American egalitarian culture each person is an autonomous individual where in a patriarchical culture each person has a head and that head has set guidelines for their families. In an egalitarian culture you're interacting with the individual and in a patriarchical culture you're interacting with a member of a patriarch's family.
I think that the disintegration of the patriarchy in American culture has allowed the government to step in as the provider and protector of woman and they have set in law their guidelines for interacting with others. In a patriarchical culture it is difficult to navigate social interactions when those guidelines are not known. So I think the best approach would be to go to the head of the family and find out what those guidelines are.
I'm not saying that one patriarch's guidelines are better than another's but to find out what they are.
So, obviously, its impossible to quantify the atmosphere at the retreats through an online digital interface. Anyone who has been to one knows that there is no goon squad or whatever to keep the women all cooped up! I’d pity the fool that got stuck with that job. Not to mention there is no need. Almost every man I’ve met at the retreats are good men, and the rare exception has minded their manners. That’s not to say that there aren’t always those whose natural exuberance for single women override their manners in an attempt to recruit an addition in record time!
There are plenty of opportunities for everyone to visit with everyone else, men, women, married unmarried etc. Everyone is pretty open with everyone else. The biggest problem isn’t that there’s no one to talk to, but that there’s not enough time in the day to be able to visit with everyone you wish to before the retreat is over.
Where it becomes an issue is when we have women who wont come back because they were overwhelmed by men who approached it in a first come/first married attitude. Or younger women who feel like they are being stalked by someone who cant take a hint or a direct turn down and the individual makes the rest of their retreat uncomfortable/stressful. Especially when that someone is significantly older to them (in their mind)
We understand that relationships may develop, and as that happens naturally, great! More power to them. What I am and have been addressing re the beeline for the solitary ladies have been specific situations that have been brought to my attention as a serious issue/concern by the solitary lady, under age young woman, or friend that they came with or family members. It was addressed in person last retreat but apparently didn’t entirely stick and was followed by posts after this retreat publicly belittling the young (underage) lady. Inexcusable and entirely unacceptable.
Normally there would be only private conversations, and there are some in progress at the moment I believe. However, due to the nature of how it was presented, and words to the wise not finding a home, it has presented a decent opportunity for some interesting discussion on several topics. When I have time I’ll look at creating another thread if another mod doesn’t beat me to it.
There are plenty of opportunities for everyone to visit with everyone else, men, women, married unmarried etc. Everyone is pretty open with everyone else. The biggest problem isn’t that there’s no one to talk to, but that there’s not enough time in the day to be able to visit with everyone you wish to before the retreat is over.
Where it becomes an issue is when we have women who wont come back because they were overwhelmed by men who approached it in a first come/first married attitude. Or younger women who feel like they are being stalked by someone who cant take a hint or a direct turn down and the individual makes the rest of their retreat uncomfortable/stressful. Especially when that someone is significantly older to them (in their mind)
We understand that relationships may develop, and as that happens naturally, great! More power to them. What I am and have been addressing re the beeline for the solitary ladies have been specific situations that have been brought to my attention as a serious issue/concern by the solitary lady, under age young woman, or friend that they came with or family members. It was addressed in person last retreat but apparently didn’t entirely stick and was followed by posts after this retreat publicly belittling the young (underage) lady. Inexcusable and entirely unacceptable.
Normally there would be only private conversations, and there are some in progress at the moment I believe. However, due to the nature of how it was presented, and words to the wise not finding a home, it has presented a decent opportunity for some interesting discussion on several topics. When I have time I’ll look at creating another thread if another mod doesn’t beat me to it.
I wonder. Churchianity doesn't offer practical answers. Biblical families is not a dating website. But I would also add that just like the Bible doesn't provide a guide for courtship, it doesn't really offer practical answers for singles. It says "get married" but it doesn't say how. Kind of like how the bible says "Whatever work your hands find to do, do with all your might" but it doesn't provide practical answers for how to get a job. I don't think our faith was meant to be practical instruction manuals for how a lot of things get done.
Or to put it another way, I don't feel the especial need to compete with churchianity in what they are doing. One of my biggest beefs with them is that they try to use set procedures to mimic the intended fruit of the Life of Christ. My bible says that he who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord. Why would we try to come up with a mechanism to mimic the results of finding favor with the Lord?
No matter how good our intentions are, or how patriarchally-sound our process is: Is it worth cobbling together? No man held my hand to get me employment, or provided a wife for me. I found them both by the grace of God.
I suspect that going too far into trying to correct what churchianity has failed to do will only result in us making our own silly brand of churchianity. I also suspect the more we rely on God to do what He has already taken responsibility for, the more we will get results that we were hoping for in the first place.
I think a major reason for this 'better then' thought is that arranged marriages were much more about the business relationship tied up in the covenant. Today, marriages happen because of 'love' but the warm fuzzy emotions can be fickle. Arranged marriages had more to do with business and family ties that grew into love, but the major factor supporting the marriage was a covenant v feelings.
but it is a marriage ministry. And in the list of marriage topics relevant to people out there, practical answers for single Christians looking for a mate has got to be in the top 5.
It's not that we need to compete with churchianity or become a church, it's that churchianity failed and if we want to be relevant to the next generation we can't.
I don't think that does justice to the situation. Quite simply, marriage is failing in our society and the normal ways of finding a mate are breaking down. The way many of us got our wives quite possibly isn't even possible today so much has changed. This isn't teaching a kid to crawl territory, its throwing a ring to a drowning kid territory.
Agreed. @FollowingHim took a huge stab at it with his gold worthy statement to the ladies: 'be willing to be bold and find the right man...'
We are not a dating site, but, there is a subtext of matchmaking.. any who are interested do telegraph simply by being here. Compatibility is at least partly deducible from reading posts and watching interactions, prayer and retreat attendance. Solid friendships can be built.... so, much can happen in this environment without significant adjustment.
Maybe a pinned thread that has some 'best practises' directed at both men and women for those open?
I agree, we must be flexible, not pharisee-like about how youngsters or adults should "couple up", while at the same time we must stick to what the Bible REQUIRES for "coupling up" - an equal yoke. In the case of a virgin living under her father's roof, in addition to an equal yoke, it also requires the father's permission and bride price of a virgin. Not all single women are virgins living under her father's roof, but the equal yoke requirement applies to everyone. From what I see in the Bible, if a father kicks his daughter out of the house at 18 and sends her off to college where she loses her virginity, he's lost his say in who she marries, because he has caused her to commit fornication, like a man who divorces his wife, he causes her to commit adultery while her first husband is still alive, because women will look for another husband to care for them when the first one refuses to. This is all coming from a woman who was abandoned by her father while still in the womb, but the Bible seems to back this idea up, that a father loses say when he expects his daughter to move out, and doesn't protect her virginity. When my father denied being my father, my Heavenly Father saw to it that I had an equal yoke, once I stopped denying His say in who I married.
While I can't think of one instance where there is NOT a third party involved in the match making or marriage proposal (notice the lack of dating or courtship in the Bible), the Bible gives a variety of examples of how/when HE chooses a wife for a man. Look at how Abigail, recently widowed, became David's wife. David had his servants offer her a proposal to marry him. We don't see any consulting of her father or close male relative there. 1 Samuel 25:40-42. We see in the Book of Ruth, that when Ruth was widowed, she determined to not go back to her father's house, but chose instead to marry one of her husband's relatives, according to the Heavenly Law of Moses. She chose, with Naomi's guidance, but she did so according to the Laws of Israel, and the family she had married into. Jacob set his heart on Rachel, but his Uncle Laban saw to it that he married Leah, too. Jacob's father, Isaac, had never met either young lady, but he had sent Jacob to Laban to take from the daughter of Laban a wife. Genesis 28:2. The third party in this instance was Laban, but Jacob seemed to be a party involved, too. The Book of Jubilees says that Jacob told his mother he had planned for a long time to marry one of Laban's daughters, long before Isaac told him to. Why? Because Jacob was a man who followed the Law and he knew these were the female relatives he was to marry. When Rebecca and Isaac agreed and sent him to Laban, and Laban and his daughters agreed, this was all confirming it was Yah's will. Despite the mockery on that in our culture, the Law considers it an honorable thing to marry a cousin or close relative in Israel of an equal yoke than someone raised in a different culture or religious tradition. My husband and I were raised in different cultures and religious traditions, but by the time we met, we were an equal yoke.
My family and I have never been to the "retreats" either, and honestly, one of the reasons we aren't more involved in the forums and such is that we SOMETIMES, not always (but mixed messages), get the same vibes here that we got at church. We left church because those in the church seemed too busy preventing and distracting us from reading, discussing, and walking out the Bible, to do it themselves.
I don't think we need pharisees to determine how/when a couple should marry, or make up their own rules, additional burdens or yokes on lonely single men and women that go beyond what the Bible requires. One reason marriage exists, according to the Bible, is because of all the sexual immorality in the world. It PREVENTS sexual immorality. Many parents and religious leaders insist men need to mature before marriage, but marriage usually is exactly what is needed to bring about maturity, and without it, the immature man or woman commits sexual sin dragging their lovers into the ditch with them. The key is what the Bible says - an equal yoke. Order is a good thing, but the pharisees leading young folks too often get things backwards and are misguiding the youth. The order is supposed to be equal yoke, then marriage, then maturity, not maturity, then marriage, then equal yoke. I know Christian, Jewish, and Messianic parents that tell their kids it's better to live in sexual sin for a while than get married before having an established career and college completed. For us, college isn't even on the radar. Neither my husband nor I finished college. We do alright financially. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, Leah - none of them put off marriage for college. They had periods of financial instability, and they believed Yah would get them through, and He did. They endured famines. We all have. I was in my late twenties when I got married. Sexual immorality was there for my hubby and I both until we met and married. I didn't have a father to determine that, I didn't live under the roof of a family member, I was on my own, and my husband, too, when we met. Yah was the One who decided when we were ready, and who we should marry. The equal yoke was there.
I had a youth pastor who loaned me a car in college when my car that I was still paying on stopped running. He put an additional burden on me that hindered me rather than helping me. He required that I stay in college and get my degree while running up debt in order to use the car. Instead, he should have required me to dump my boyfriend and swear them off until marriage in an equal yoke, that would have been a more Biblical burden for a young, single girl under his guidance. That guidance would have actually helped me spiritually, physically, financially, emotionally, mentally, etc...
A man is to leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. That's apparently also true for the woman, to leave father and mother and cling to her husband. Rachel and Leah made up their own minds to leave Laban when he wasn't treating Jacob well. A woman does have a say, Rebecca was asked if she wanted to marry Isaac. Abraham's servants didn't just club her over the head and drag her by her hair. She said she willing to go. A good husband would want a wife to have a say in marrying him. YHUH also wants a bride who comes to him by free will. A father having say doesn't mean the daughter shouldn't.
Well said
Are husbands and wives “yoked” together, based on the context of those verses that speak of being yoked, or do wives belong to their husbands?
I really like a lot of what you were saying in your post, even this. Yet it also sounds a lot like the fatalistic advice that singles find unhelpful.
"He who finds a wife finds a good thing And obtains favor from the LORD." The emphasis seems to be upon the individual effort of the man, not upon waiting for God to favor you. On the other hand there are verses like Matthew 7:7-11; which, considering fathers in the Bible found mates for both their sons and daughters, seems applicable.