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Interesting
“If only the husbands would listen to their poor mistreated wives”
Please enlighten me.
I agree, it does seem common.
But unless you are a Balaam or a Nabal, do we see the concept in Scripture?
Is she to be the guide-rails that keep you from careening off of the mountain?
Does she take the position of the Holy Spirit in your life?
Was this YHWH’s intention when he created her?
It gets classified as sin?
Which one of you gets to classify it as such?
So when either of you receives a Word that the other will not accept, it is automatically time to take your disagreement before the Church?
Btw, that instruction ends with putting the non-conforming member out of the Church while letting the accuser stay. In a marriage, how would that differ from a divorce?
It is common, but I don't agree with it. I just think it's a sign of how far into women worship the church has fallen.
Galatians 6:1-2
I think there are a couple others in the pastoral epistles but I can't think of them off the top of my head at the moment.
I likewise do not think it wise, given most churches, to bring to them issues between man and wife. Especially since they are a different sphere of authority parallel to the husband, not above him. It is the husband, not the church, who has disciplinary authority over the wife.
However, Titus 2 indicates that in a properly working church there is still a role for the church to play; since aged women were to be teaching the younger to love their husbands and be obedient to them.
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If someone is sick, who are they suppose to go to?
My wife and I are currently pursuing a possibility of being marriage mentors in the church that we attend. The church is not perfect and neither are we, but they do try to offer help in this world. I don't believe in a LAW requirement for the church to be the the go to in marriage issues, no different than it is not a law for someone to go to the church for healing. I think sickness is a form of sin, at least lepersy. The discussion on deacons and elders has no purpose unless the church has purpose. True the church has failed but until God provides the replacement shouldn't individuals and families be able to try and use what is available if reconciliation is difficult. No family is perfect At least that's what I think.
My wife and I are currently pursuing a possibility of being marriage mentors in the church that we attend. The church is not perfect and neither are we, but they do try to offer help in this world. I don't believe in a LAW requirement for the church to be the the go to in marriage issues, no different than it is not a law for someone to go to the church for healing. I think sickness is a form of sin, at least lepersy. The discussion on deacons and elders has no purpose unless the church has purpose. True the church has failed but until God provides the replacement shouldn't individuals and families be able to try and use what is available if reconciliation is difficult. No family is perfect At least that's what I think.
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It is my understanding that lepersy, blindness, and other sickness, have spiritual connections that relates to sin.
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I believe sickness is referred to towards general sin, of Nations and individual groups of people, even snake bites are because of sin sometimes. Sickness because of personal sin is also referenced in the Bible. But it's never a sin to be sick.
@Cap If G-d is calling you to be a marriage mentor in the Church that is great, follow His guidance. Personally G-d is my go to with marriage issues not the church and if I'm just unable to discern the will of G-d as it pertains to my marriage I have a few men I trust and know are G-dly that I got to for council. That's not much different than marriage mentorship. What everyone seems to be trying to convey is its not the Church's duty to the L-rd to oversee a man's house. When you said "isn't this were the church comes in", people saw it as a statement not a question. Either way you implied that there was an law/instruction (they mean the same thing) to take those problems to the church for it to decide. It may not be What you intented but it's what came across. What your talking about is a Minisrty, but unless I'm mistaken, your just counseling and sharing your understanding with them. Not claiming biblical authority to tell a man to listen to his wife or going to be taking the issues brought to y'all to the Elders for them to make a decision.
So were you equating Sin manifested sickness to a wife having a difference in opinion with her husband and that the difference in opinion needed to he taken to Church for prayer by the Elders and if she had sinned she would be forgiven? What if she chose to not change her mind?
How is Church Discipline applicable In the case of a wife thinking she heard a diffrent word from her husband? Do you see a wife having a different opinion as a sin? If so, how is taking it to the church Elders to make a mans wife submit to him and not sin anymore a man leading his own household, it sounds more like leadership by committee than Patriachy. As @steve pointed about Church Discipline if some one refuses to change their sinful behavior then they are excommunicated from the church. So if Church discipline is the answer are you saying you would execpt the judgement of Elders over your marriage. For example your wife refuses to accept your word from G-d even after the Elders told her to and decided to excumunicate her from your marriage, would you accept that, of course not. So how then is Church Discipline the answer?
I'm just not sure what your saying. Can you please explain.
Edit: I think I that your say your saying that we should seek council from those more discerning than we are before the difference in opinion becomes rebellion. Is this correct?
To the L-rd or if you feel the need for more prayer you call for the Elders of the church to pray for you, if you follow biblical instruction. If you dont feel bound to biblical law then you handle it howere you decide to.
So were you equating Sin manifested sickness to a wife having a difference in opinion with her husband and that the difference in opinion needed to he taken to Church for prayer by the Elders and if she had sinned she would be forgiven? What if she chose to not change her mind?
How is Church Discipline applicable In the case of a wife thinking she heard a diffrent word from her husband? Do you see a wife having a different opinion as a sin? If so, how is taking it to the church Elders to make a mans wife submit to him and not sin anymore a man leading his own household, it sounds more like leadership by committee than Patriachy. As @steve pointed about Church Discipline if some one refuses to change their sinful behavior then they are excommunicated from the church. So if Church discipline is the answer are you saying you would execpt the judgement of Elders over your marriage. For example your wife refuses to accept your word from G-d even after the Elders told her to and decided to excumunicate her from your marriage, would you accept that, of course not. So how then is Church Discipline the answer?
I'm just not sure what your saying. Can you please explain.
Edit: I think I that your say your saying that we should seek council from those more discerning than we are before the difference in opinion becomes rebellion. Is this correct?
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If G-d is calling you to be a marriage mentor in the Church that is great, follow His guidance.
Only reason I mentioned it was just for an example of what the church can offer to those who may be in need in regards to this kind of service. We are currently trying to figure out if this is something He wants us to do, however our biggest concern is to try and find out if it is something we are suppose to do in regards to PM. The whole reason we are involved in this church is to try and see how well that a PM type of marriage would be accepted in the first place. This is a long term project in regards to PM. It is really a side issue in this discussion.
Personally G-d is my go to with marriage issues not the church and if I'm just unable to discern the will of G-d as it pertains to my marriage I have a few men I trust and know are G-dly that I got to for council. That's not much different than marriage mentorship.
I believe the exact same thing.
What everyone seems to be trying to convey is its not the Church's duty to the L-rd to oversee a man's house.
Agreed.
When you said "isn't this were the church comes in", people saw it as a statement not a question.
Purely a question.
Either way you implied that there was an law/instruction (they mean the same thing) to take those problems to the church for it to decide.
Not trying to imply anything like that at all, sorry if I was not clear on what I was trying to say. Yes, I would consider it a ministry and one based on just helping others based on experience, and maybe a certain degree of higher faith if they are lacking in such areas. I was not at all claiming biblical authority in these matters (I would never presume such a thing in any matter). In my view a proper functioning church would be a place to offer help for those in need. But, if ones relationship is close enough to God Himself, then by all means go directly to the source.
To the L-rd or if you feel the need for more prayer you call for the Elders of the church to pray for you, if you follow biblical instruction. If you dont feel bound to biblical law then you handle it howere you decide to.
Agreed. But, I don't feel that asking for prayer is a biblical law, it is just a service that is provide for those in need and willing to ask for it.
So were you equating Sin manifested sickness to a wife having a difference in opinion with her husband and that the difference in opinion needed to he taken to Church for prayer by the Elders and if she had sinned she would be forgiven? What if she chose to not change her mind?
No. I guess my choice of verse to use was confusing. The main point of the verse was the asking for help from the church and the service that is provided, not some law and consequence if not used.
How is Church Discipline applicable In the case of a wife thinking she heard a diffrent word from her husband?
Not related at all. Just forum post confusion.
Do you see a wife having a different opinion as a sin?
No.
If so, how is taking it to the church Elders to make a mans wife submit to him and not sin anymore a man leading his own household, it sounds more like leadership by committee than Patriachy.
Not at all what I was trying to say. Having accountability and people that one can reach out to in difficult situations is really the only point.
As @steve pointed about Church Discipline if some one refuses to change their sinful behavior then they are excommunicated from the church. So if Church discipline is the answer are you saying you would execpt the judgement of Elders over your marriage. For example your wife refuses to accept your word from G-d even after the Elders told her to and decided to excumunicate her from your marriage, would you accept that, of course not. So how then is Church Discipline the answer?
Way off the deep end here. Related more to the forum post confusion spoken of earlier.
Edit: I think I that your say your saying that we should seek council from those more discerning than we are before the difference in opinion becomes rebellion. Is this correct?
This is sort of confusing but, yes I think. seeking counsel from more experienced members of a group, or those who have more faith in certain matters would be a good thing before things got out of hand, matters of family conflict, personal issues, health and well being issues, things the church is SUPPOSE to be able to provide.
Thank you Kevin for trying to clear this up. It appears I am not a very good communicator on forums like this. I am passionate about what I feel in reference to God things and I guess it comes out the way it does. I would never want to impose any type of biblical authority, perceived or otherwise on any given subject. I am here to learn, but I would also like to participate. I am not here to disrupt the crowd. But I do have a very strong faith and I have seen God move tremendously within that faith, and many times has forced me to go beyond it.
Only reason I mentioned it was just for an example of what the church can offer to those who may be in need in regards to this kind of service. We are currently trying to figure out if this is something He wants us to do, however our biggest concern is to try and find out if it is something we are suppose to do in regards to PM. The whole reason we are involved in this church is to try and see how well that a PM type of marriage would be accepted in the first place. This is a long term project in regards to PM. It is really a side issue in this discussion.
Personally G-d is my go to with marriage issues not the church and if I'm just unable to discern the will of G-d as it pertains to my marriage I have a few men I trust and know are G-dly that I got to for council. That's not much different than marriage mentorship.
I believe the exact same thing.
What everyone seems to be trying to convey is its not the Church's duty to the L-rd to oversee a man's house.
Agreed.
When you said "isn't this were the church comes in", people saw it as a statement not a question.
Purely a question.
Either way you implied that there was an law/instruction (they mean the same thing) to take those problems to the church for it to decide.
Not trying to imply anything like that at all, sorry if I was not clear on what I was trying to say. Yes, I would consider it a ministry and one based on just helping others based on experience, and maybe a certain degree of higher faith if they are lacking in such areas. I was not at all claiming biblical authority in these matters (I would never presume such a thing in any matter). In my view a proper functioning church would be a place to offer help for those in need. But, if ones relationship is close enough to God Himself, then by all means go directly to the source.
To the L-rd or if you feel the need for more prayer you call for the Elders of the church to pray for you, if you follow biblical instruction. If you dont feel bound to biblical law then you handle it howere you decide to.
Agreed. But, I don't feel that asking for prayer is a biblical law, it is just a service that is provide for those in need and willing to ask for it.
So were you equating Sin manifested sickness to a wife having a difference in opinion with her husband and that the difference in opinion needed to he taken to Church for prayer by the Elders and if she had sinned she would be forgiven? What if she chose to not change her mind?
No. I guess my choice of verse to use was confusing. The main point of the verse was the asking for help from the church and the service that is provided, not some law and consequence if not used.
How is Church Discipline applicable In the case of a wife thinking she heard a diffrent word from her husband?
Not related at all. Just forum post confusion.
Do you see a wife having a different opinion as a sin?
No.
If so, how is taking it to the church Elders to make a mans wife submit to him and not sin anymore a man leading his own household, it sounds more like leadership by committee than Patriachy.
Not at all what I was trying to say. Having accountability and people that one can reach out to in difficult situations is really the only point.
As @steve pointed about Church Discipline if some one refuses to change their sinful behavior then they are excommunicated from the church. So if Church discipline is the answer are you saying you would execpt the judgement of Elders over your marriage. For example your wife refuses to accept your word from G-d even after the Elders told her to and decided to excumunicate her from your marriage, would you accept that, of course not. So how then is Church Discipline the answer?
Way off the deep end here. Related more to the forum post confusion spoken of earlier.
Edit: I think I that your say your saying that we should seek council from those more discerning than we are before the difference in opinion becomes rebellion. Is this correct?
This is sort of confusing but, yes I think. seeking counsel from more experienced members of a group, or those who have more faith in certain matters would be a good thing before things got out of hand, matters of family conflict, personal issues, health and well being issues, things the church is SUPPOSE to be able to provide.
Thank you Kevin for trying to clear this up. It appears I am not a very good communicator on forums like this. I am passionate about what I feel in reference to God things and I guess it comes out the way it does. I would never want to impose any type of biblical authority, perceived or otherwise on any given subject. I am here to learn, but I would also like to participate. I am not here to disrupt the crowd. But I do have a very strong faith and I have seen God move tremendously within that faith, and many times has forced me to go beyond it.
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I personally think I have gotten a lot out of this discussion. I was under the impression that God routinely speaks words to both the husband and wife, together or separately. And that most of the time those different words end up helping guide a family by clearing up confusion or adding confirmation to a difficult decision.
However, at times when there may be a deeper problem spiritually that there may be perceived differences in the way God speaks to a husband and wife and in such cases the husband has the responsiblity to lead through such matters, to the point of involving the church, group of like minded believers, to help resolve an issue, not for punishment sake. Not a requirement but it is a useful tool if it can be applied correctly. But nevertheless, it's still the husband's responsability to use it correctly.
That's my take, what do you think?
The trick is how it applies when the 'Church' is at odds with the husband.
Whether that be because the issue relates to polygamy or to something else where the church historically believes but the husband holds a different view (say a guy who accepts alcohol but is in the Baptist denomination), the trick becomes, who do you go to?
This is something my wife and I have had to deal with lately.
Most of the friends and family and people we know are of the 'typical conservative' type. Which means any issue relating to sex, marital authority, or, God forbid, polygamy, automatically puts me at odds with them. When my wife feels we should do/not do one thing, and wants counsel and asks me to seek counsel, I don't feel I can go to 'the Church', because I already KNOW the church is wrong, and is just going to further contaminate my authority and try to turn my wife against me. Conversely, I have been trying to get her and I both into closer counsel with members of this board, for example, but the wife views us as 'fringe', so to speak, and it is (understandably) harder for her to trust the wisdom of someone she doesn't know as well. Which I completely sympathize with, but it's a catch 22.
Also, every person has their own spin. God does speak through others, yes, but relying on others to interpret what God has directed you to do is dangerous. Wise advice and counsel is one thing: asking someone to tell you what God wants you to do (not like they need asking most of the time
) is foolish. My experience in life is that 'Christians' are all too eager to tell you exactly what God wants for your life, from your birth to death and every detail in between. But they are not you. I'm not Jesus, but even Peter, one of His closest friends, contradicted what God had told Him to do at times.
Whether that be because the issue relates to polygamy or to something else where the church historically believes but the husband holds a different view (say a guy who accepts alcohol but is in the Baptist denomination), the trick becomes, who do you go to?
This is something my wife and I have had to deal with lately.
Most of the friends and family and people we know are of the 'typical conservative' type. Which means any issue relating to sex, marital authority, or, God forbid, polygamy, automatically puts me at odds with them. When my wife feels we should do/not do one thing, and wants counsel and asks me to seek counsel, I don't feel I can go to 'the Church', because I already KNOW the church is wrong, and is just going to further contaminate my authority and try to turn my wife against me. Conversely, I have been trying to get her and I both into closer counsel with members of this board, for example, but the wife views us as 'fringe', so to speak, and it is (understandably) harder for her to trust the wisdom of someone she doesn't know as well. Which I completely sympathize with, but it's a catch 22.
Also, every person has their own spin. God does speak through others, yes, but relying on others to interpret what God has directed you to do is dangerous. Wise advice and counsel is one thing: asking someone to tell you what God wants you to do (not like they need asking most of the time
) is foolish. My experience in life is that 'Christians' are all too eager to tell you exactly what God wants for your life, from your birth to death and every detail in between. But they are not you. I'm not Jesus, but even Peter, one of His closest friends, contradicted what God had told Him to do at times.
Mostly you don’t.
Somehow, someway, you have to work through the question of leadership in your house.
Giving an outsider the tie-breaking vote in marital disagreements is not the pattern that YHWH established.
It will take time and patience, but work towards making correct choices and let her learn to let you lead. YHWH is on your side if you are making righteous decisions.
Just my take.
Through this process in understanding plural marriage, I have had to learn to let go of “submission” to my pastor and I have had to really learn what it means to “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.” (Eph 5:22). Submission has become one of the biggest tests in my life. By me finally learning to let go of my control, I have handed the extra weight of responsibility to my husband. Realizing I am obeying God’s command to my life to submit has ultimately lifted the weight off of my shoulders. Should my husband lead me in the wrong, that is HIS mistake and he will be held accountable to Christ. When I WILLFULLY refuse to follow him, I am held accountable for my actions. One of the most amazing stories of submission to me is Sarah to Abraham. She obeyed him to the point of almost adultery, YET, God protected her and in return praises her in the NT for her faith.
1 Peter 3:5-6
“For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.”
Is following your husband painful at times? Yes. Can he make mistakes? YES. But, who doesn’t? Do you trust God enough to submit is the real question.
In the beginning of learning about plural marriage, I wanted my husband to talk with our pastor too, but it was BECAUSE I knew the pastor would side with me and tell me he was in the wrong. I thought my husband was being deceived and leading us to a cult. After months of asking questions, seeking and learning, I saw how pastors don’t dig into marriage because they don’t want to lose the congregation. $$$
I certainly THOUGHT I was hearing God tell me how wrong my husband was, but really it was emotions. I do not trust myself to be the final decision on anything anymore, and I thank God for a strong man to lead and take the responsibility off of me seriously, such a blessing!
Women are not logical when it comes to PM, it is the most emotional thing I have ever experienced. It cut deeper than anything. I actually thought it would have been easier on my heart to have my husband tell me he loved someone else and didn’t want me anymore, than for him to say he wanted to love someone also. @EternalDreamer, unfortunately, you are not in a quick fix place. It’s going to take lots of time and lots of talking and even more patience than you will have ever thought humanly possible (X2)
1 Peter 3:5-6
“For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.”
Is following your husband painful at times? Yes. Can he make mistakes? YES. But, who doesn’t? Do you trust God enough to submit is the real question.
In the beginning of learning about plural marriage, I wanted my husband to talk with our pastor too, but it was BECAUSE I knew the pastor would side with me and tell me he was in the wrong. I thought my husband was being deceived and leading us to a cult. After months of asking questions, seeking and learning, I saw how pastors don’t dig into marriage because they don’t want to lose the congregation. $$$
I certainly THOUGHT I was hearing God tell me how wrong my husband was, but really it was emotions. I do not trust myself to be the final decision on anything anymore, and I thank God for a strong man to lead and take the responsibility off of me
seriously, such a blessing! Women are not logical when it comes to PM, it is the most emotional thing I have ever experienced. It cut deeper than anything. I actually thought it would have been easier on my heart to have my husband tell me he loved someone else and didn’t want me anymore, than for him to say he wanted to love someone also. @EternalDreamer, unfortunately, you are not in a quick fix place. It’s going to take lots of time and lots of talking and even more patience than you will have ever thought humanly possible (X2)