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Why is Divorce so easy in the Bible?

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Is this a completely unprovoked and irrelevant jab at my wife, who has had little or no input into this discussion? Please explain, and if so apologise to her and refrain from any such comments in future, this was quite upsetting for her to read today.
What? No, Sarah just happens to be the most popular Jewish lady's name I can think of.
Why on Earth would you think it has anything to do with your wife? Is she a Jew? is she a rabbi? I was quite clear in my post I was referring to Reform Judaism's Rabbis; they allow women rabbis (and gay rabbis) so I'm at a total loss how you could think this has anything remotely to do with your wife. I didn't even remember that her name is Sarah. Why would I take a jab at her?
Hey buddy I was rallying for you to return to the site, I made public posts to that affect when you were gone. Why would I try to alienate you now that your back (as I wanted, publicly)??
She's not even involved in the discussion I'm having. You are out of line buddy and frankly that should have been a Private message.
Come on Sam.

What the heck is going on Sam???
 
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This whole woman in adultery thing is going round and round in circles. I'd like to summarise it if I may, in the hope that if my summary is somewhere close to fair people won't have a need to restate the same points over and over again.

It is reasonable to question whether this account is scriptural. There are three possibilities - 1) It was originally part of John, 2) It was not originally in John, but was a true account recorded elsewhere (ie is midrash / apocryphal) that had such high validity it was copied into John later by scribes who were genuinely trying to preserve records of the facts, 3) It is a later fabrication. However a significant discussion on the scriptural validity or otherwise of this passage is scheduled for another thread soon, once @IshChayil has his notes in order.

If 3 is correct, there's no point discussing the passage at all and this can all be thrown out as irrelevant. Conversation over (on this thread anyway).

If 1 or 2 is correct and the passage has at least enough historical merit to warrant discussion:
Yeshua was approached by men with a woman they claimed was caught in adultery, who said "Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?". This was entrapment. They were trying to catch him out. If he said "don't stone her", they'd say he was saying the law did not apply. If he said "stone her" they'd say he advocated disobeying Roman laws that forbade the Jews from putting anyone to death - if he started the stoning himself they'd have him red handed. If he came to either judgement they'd accuse him of presuming to be a judge and take the place of the Sanhedrin. If he refused to issue any advice they'd say he didn't understand scripture well enough and was no Rabbi. It was a cunningly devised minefield.

His response was in two parts, firstly "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." This was an application of Deuteronomy 17:7 - the hands of the accusers should be first to stone the accused, and after then the assembly. In other words, it was not Yeshua's business to start any stoning, it was their problem, they were the accusers. What would they do? Were they truly confident that their evidence and determination was strong enough for them to risk the wrath of the Roman authorities for sentencing someone to death against secular law? Remembering that they too were sinners... At this the accusers chickened out and sneaked away.

His second statement was "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? ... Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.". This applied Deuteronomy 17:6 & Numbers 35:30 - two witnesses were required for her to be stoned. Without two witnesses, Torah is very clear that she could not be stoned. Even if, knowing everything, he did know she was guilty, he was only one witness and Torah required two (and she may have been innocent anyway).
His response was a direct application of the due process in Torah, embedded with his flavour of grace.

More could be said about how His response was directly based on Torah, and has been said by many previous posters. I see no reason to rehash all of this. My point is simply:
  • If valid, this account does not in any way say that Yeshua went against Torah, on the contrary He followed it to the letter.
  • If invalid, this account is not worth discussing anyway.
I'll side with @Mojo on this one. I think his summary was succinct and torah accurate; at least according to Jewish Law you can't release witnesses in a capital case.
it's certainly a violation of torah to let an adulteress go and to dismiss witnesses. For certain it doesn't matter if one convict escaped (the man) the lady is still culpable in court for her own sin.
It's a beautiful story of grace and I think the 2 camps just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Cer
 
@ish,

They caught the woman "in the act," John 8:4. IN THE ACT. They knew who the other party was but in their stiff-necked unrighteousness, they chose not to bring both parties. They let one go and wanted to judge the other. Dude! Wake up. This is a classic trap to cause the Creator to act unjustly.
I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one brother.
Jewish law indicates otherwise and since your Messianic, Messianics follow Jewish Law.
If you're really Hebrew Roots then I get the suspicion of the rabbis and either way we'll just have to disagree.
If you are really Messianic I can dig and get you some case law on this.
 
@IshChayil, sorry for jumping to conclusions. It surprised me because I agree you and I are getting along pretty well these days! :) Thanks for the explanation.
OK I forgive you.
I understand, when our women get weepy sometimes we guys just see red. Please make sure she knows it really had nothing to do with her.
Ironically I almost wrote "Rabbi Rebecca!"
 
This whole woman in adultery thing is going round and round in circles. I'd like to summarise it if I may, in the hope that if my summary is somewhere close to fair people won't have a need to restate the same points over and over again.

It is reasonable to question whether this account is scriptural. There are three possibilities - 1) It was originally part of John, 2) It was not originally in John, but was a true account recorded elsewhere (ie is midrash / apocryphal) that had such high validity it was copied into John later by scribes who were genuinely trying to preserve records of the facts, 3) It is a later fabrication. However a significant discussion on the scriptural validity or otherwise of this passage is scheduled for another thread soon, once @IshChayil has his notes in order.

If 3 is correct, there's no point discussing the passage at all and this can all be thrown out as irrelevant. Conversation over (on this thread anyway).

If 1 or 2 is correct and the passage has at least enough historical merit to warrant discussion:
Yeshua was approached by men with a woman they claimed was caught in adultery, who said "Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?". This was entrapment. They were trying to catch him out. If he said "don't stone her", they'd say he was saying the law did not apply. If he said "stone her" they'd say he advocated disobeying Roman laws that forbade the Jews from putting anyone to death - if he started the stoning himself they'd have him red handed. If he came to either judgement they'd accuse him of presuming to be a judge and take the place of the Sanhedrin. If he refused to issue any advice they'd say he didn't understand scripture well enough and was no Rabbi. It was a cunningly devised minefield.

His response was in two parts, firstly "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." This was an application of Deuteronomy 17:7 - the hands of the accusers should be first to stone the accused, and after then the assembly. In other words, it was not Yeshua's business to start any stoning, it was their problem, they were the accusers. What would they do? Were they truly confident that their evidence and determination was strong enough for them to risk the wrath of the Roman authorities for sentencing someone to death against secular law? Remembering that they too were sinners... At this the accusers chickened out and sneaked away.

His second statement was "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? ... Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.". This applied Deuteronomy 17:6 & Numbers 35:30 - two witnesses were required for her to be stoned. Without two witnesses, Torah is very clear that she could not be stoned. Even if, knowing everything, he did know she was guilty, he was only one witness and Torah required two (and she may have been innocent anyway).
His response was a direct application of the due process in Torah, embedded with his flavour of grace.

More could be said about how His response was directly based on Torah, and has been said by many previous posters. I see no reason to rehash all of this. My point is simply:
  • If valid, this account does not in any way say that Yeshua went against Torah, on the contrary He followed it to the letter.
  • If invalid, this account is not worth discussing anyway.

So...I havent been able to sleep tonight and was creeping around on the board till I found this thread...and have spent quite a while reading every comment. Incredibly captivating discussion (aside from the heated personality clashes at times lol....glad to see things reconciled though!)

Anyway I just had to say that this explanation takes the cake for me. It makes perfect sense as to how devious their plot to catch Him really was, as well as how utterly BRILLIANT His way out proved to be. Thank you for taking the time to write this out bro, it really kind of settled this issue for me.

I mean if I'm being honest...I want to believe that this was an inspired story. While I am open to the conclusions of well studied textual criticism, and do not embrace the idea of inspired translations, deep down it just feels comfortable to be able to look at my English bible version and be able to trust that God has preserved His Word *enough* through translation that I don't have to worry about entire stories being fabricated.

But at the end of the day, I must acknowledge the harsh reality of my very rational conclusion that translations are not inspired. Truth is often the enemy of comfort.

But with all that said...I'm happy to have been exposed to a perfectly rational and thoroughly Biblical explanation of Jesus' actions here. One variant I no longer have to be concerned about :)
 
Just in case folks don't know this, as beautiful as the "woman caught in adultery" story is, this story is marked as "unreliable" in the critical apparatus of the Greek text.
It simply did not exist in the oldest manuscripts.


I just ran across this in the Fragments of Papias. Late first century era

And he also gives another story of a woman who was accused of many sins before the Lord, which is to be fount in the Gospel according to the Hebrews.

Here Papias is apparently referring to Matthews Gospel written in the Hebrew language which in my opinion would have predated any other Christian manuscripts.
 
Like @PassionatePatriarch earlier, I randomly found this thread a couple days ago and have been plowing through it with a combination of consternation and delight (with the insanity of the Ford/Kavanaugh nightmare going on in the background). I have some (mostly) brief thoughts (and mostly brief because the only lengthy comment I had planned to make turned out to be entirely unnecessary due to the eventual compelling and logical summary by @FollowingHim along with some other brilliant comments by others sprinkled here and there). [added a closed parenthesis here]

God never had sex with Mary - she gave birth as a virgin, which is the whole point. So no marriage. Joseph married her legitimately.

More for the purpose of adding some food for thought than to stir up a hornet's nest, I (a non-Jew, non-Messianic, non-Hebrew-Roots English-translations-skeptic believer with actual Jewish ethnic roots) would suggest that challenging the virgin birth is not necessarily apostasy. Just this week I encountered a very interesting take on the issue that includes taking note that the two Greek words translated as 'virgin' are only once elsewhere (Isaiah 7:14) translated as 'virgin' but are predominantly translated otherwise everywhere else (generally as the more generic term 'maiden'); you can find an introduction to this topic if you're interested at https://hope-of-israel.org/virginconception.html. I do not vouch for every aspect of the writer's scholarship or come close to asserting that I agree with the entire treatise. It's just food for thought that challenges the Curse of [Je]Coniah for supremacy in the realm of angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin (or, as @ZecAustin would say, straining-at-gnats) theological arguments on the issue of virgin birth/virgin conception. Perhaps all Isaiah was prophesying would be that Jesus's mother would technically be what we'd now term a 'single mother' at the moment of conception.

Just for fun.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...-court-they-were-just-practicing-their-faith/

To anybody who doesn’t care to follow the link, it is about forcibly achieving a “get” from an obstinate husband.

Back in the late 1970s, the most successful social services organization working with profoundly autistic individuals was shut down altogether. A man had developed a program that had assisted some autistic young men so severely challenged that, until then, even family members weren't sure they had any significant ability to connect with their fellow human beings -- to be able to not only begin conducting normal conversations but gain sufficient skills to hold down certain types of employment. The program developer's unpardonable sin?: the primary tool that inspired the radical transformations: limited and judicial use of cattle prods on the clients.

I'll let you decide if the following is entirely irrelevant to Steve's comment in this discussion.



I wholeheartedly agree with the value of seeking out opinions from a wide range of experiences -- and lack of such experiences. However, I offer myself as someone with whom one can reach out for a private conversation if you think my perspective could be of use to you personally, as opposed to sharing philosophical opinions publicly in these forums. Besides being a former psychotherapist and a former university student affairs professional, I am also a former long-time agnostic who rejected and 25 years later regained my faith in the Resurrection. In the middle of that quarter century of unbelief, though, I was divorced by my first wife, got remarried and then divorced my second wife, got remarried and was divorced by my third wife, and married my fourth wife (31 years ago), all in a 4-year period. And I have gone on to contemplate how to make peace with that in the context of being a now-serious student of Scripture. The only hint I'll give here is that I do not come close to excusing myself.

[QUOTE="Cap, post: 157811, member: 2225"]I would also like to add that I have read just the first chapter of the book "Divorce and marriage: Recovering the biblical view" by Luck, that is located in the main section of this forum and that chapter alone that's about marriage has give a great deal of information in regards to divorce and remarriage. I intend to tread the whole book but just wanted to put that out there for those looking for a practical look at how God may see divorce that would apply to our day. I am hopeful about the rest of the book.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the suggestion and for the recommendation. I purchased a hardcover copy earlier this afternoon.

[QUOTE="IshChayil, post: 157875, member: 2034"]why do you need to resort to ad hominem attacks on me? <snip>
If you have some deep seated fear of scholarship, or the truth of how we got the bible I can't help you with that. But name calling isn't' gonna help you there. <snip>
Such a shame you are resorting to such insults.
I really thought you'd grown up.

<snip>... and please stop insulting me. <snip>

If you're not up to the discussion that's fine, but you can bow out gracefully with "I don't know these answers and I'm annoyed to learn new things" or something like that.
I'm happy to let you off the hook.
[/QUOTE]

[Interjecting what I hope will be some gentle encouragement for two brothers to recognize that little distinction exists between name-calling and aspersions-casting.]

[QUOTE="IshChayil, post: 157875, member: 2034"]There are no authorized translations as there are no prophetic translators.[/QUOTE]

I find myself in complete agreement with you on this point, Valiant One, although I tend to also agree with Sir Austin's parallel assertion about no prophetic experts. However, that does leave us with the conundrum of necessarily defining biblical knowledge as being something that will never be available to the average person, due to the general average lack of 3 hours per day to devote to study of ancient languages for the purposes of becoming enlightened about five minutes before becoming worm food. As a fan of the Concordant Literal translations, I also probably sit astride the chasm between those who insist on only using actual original manuscripts and those who insist on only using extant manuscript pieces and chunks that are the most plentiful. I find the more original the better but that sometimes nothing original exists, and then it's probably best to combine true knowledge of the idioms of the era with evidence of agreement that goes back the farthest. I also lean toward rewarding consistency, rather than consistent mistranslation for the purpose of advancing Church agendas.

"The interpretation of a mistranslation results in a secondary error and confounds the original confusion." – Otis Q. Sellers (1901-1992)


[QUOTE="Cap, post: 157921, member: 2225"]One of the things that interested me about understanding biblical divorce has to do with [I]Exodus 21:10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights, [/I]which I would include spiritual covering for a woman. If a man does not provide spiritual covering for a woman then that would produce a lack concerning her needs and therefore create a place for her to seek divorce. Which may say a lot about [I]Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!".
[/I]
I would think that it would be a good idea to really understand that there are going to be women who are looking for a man that can provide that covering and they are more than likely going to come from being married and then divorced. If someone holds onto the view that divorced women are off limits, you could very well be limiting your field of availability.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention one's field of [I]compassion[/I].

[QUOTE="IshChayil, post: 157911, member: 2034"]Oops, I posted this in the wrong thread.
Hey guys another thought about the problem with the later added story known as the "adulterous woman".
don't we have a sin problem if Yeshua does not allow them to execute her?
The command regarding adultery is death penalty.
So if Yeshua allowed her to go free without the death penalty isn't He now in rebellion against G-d's Law?
We don't get to pick and choose the Laws and He's the only one who ever lived by the Law of G-d perfectly so ...
If this later addition to the bible is actually true, we have a huge theological problem for Yeshua being sinless.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="Cap, post: 157917, member: 2225"]It is my understanding that there is a thing called Victim's Rights that is woven through out the Word, and basically the victim has the ability to forgive any sin committed against them. Since the ultimate victim is God, He has the right to forgive anyone He chooses. The idea is the reason we are all forgiven and not held accountable for our sin against God. So I see no problem in the Son of God forgiving her. And for what it's worth, the story is IN the Bible so it is there for a reason, whoever put it there.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="IshChayil, post: 157918, member: 2034"]I've never encountered that. In the case of the Son of G-d, he was certainly not the victim of the adultery, her husband was and even if the husband was able to save her from stoning (not the case in Jewish law) then where was he forgiving her?
When we sin often times the sin is against 2 parties: G-d and a human.
We have to ask forgiveness from both. BTW I've seen interprations about Joseph not turning Mary in that say the text makes sure to mention that "normally He was a righteous man" i.e. it' was weird he was being UNRIGHTEOUS in not following the law to turn her in.
I'm just throwing that in as some hyperbole btw :)
In short, even if G-d forgives the woman, her husband needed to also and the Law served a greater function "thus shall you cut the evil off" so that others would see such a result to such a horrid crime as adultery. In Judaism today if a woman cheats the man must divorce her, even if he forgives her he's not allowed to remain with her...[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="IshChayil, post: 157931, member: 2034"]Yes, it's a nice parable. The only problem is we are quoting Yeshua here in order to exonerate Yeshua for alleged Torah violation in the adulterous woman episode.
My claim is that torah law (which defines what sin is according to Paul), required the painful deed of execution to be passed on the adulteress.
So for me, this combined with the fact that the oldest reliable Greek witnesses don't have this story in them (such a great story who would forget it!), makes me fairly certain it never happened. Plus it's such a rare event that the critical text agrees so clearly with "this certainly never happened". I even can't think of another example from my perusings in Johanian literature.
I used to like the story until I got my Greek on...[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="eye4them, post: 158004, member: 2098"]As for the woman who was taken in adultery...
For me, there are some things that don't quite add up about this.
They, and the narrator, say she was taken in adultery, so the man must have been with her. Why did they not present him along with her? The Law commands that the man and the woman be stoned, yet, they only presented the woman. I do not believe that they presented the case to Him according to the Law, and He was therefore, among other reasons; unwilling to hear it. Other possible reasons might include... As far as I know, the Romans claimed sole authority to put people to death. In v6 we read "tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.". I expect that had Yeshua condemned her, they would have accused Him to the Romans. Additionally, in v15 He says "...I judge no man.". Within the earthly structure of authority that they had at the time, did others recognize Him as holding the position of a judge? This isn't a rhetorical question, I don't know the answer, though given v15 I would expect not. If He wasn't a judge, then they might have accused Him to those who were judges.

More treatment on this topic is available here
[URL]https://www.ecclesia.org/truth/women_sin.html[/URL]
Search within that page for "You claim that Jesus taught nothing new" to find the relevant section.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="Ancient Paths, post: 158060, member: 2203"]@ish,
They caught the woman "in the act," John 8:4. IN THE ACT. They knew who the other party was but in their stiff-necked unrighteousness, they [B]chose[/B] not to bring both parties. [I]They[/I] let one go and wanted to judge the other. Dude! Wake up. This is a classic trap to cause the Creator to act unjustly.[/QUOTE]

And the blue-ribbon winner is . . . drum roll . . .

[QUOTE="FollowingHim, post: 158078, member: 5"]This whole woman in adultery thing is going round and round in circles. I'd like to summarise it if I may, in the hope that if my summary is somewhere close to fair people won't have a need to restate the same points over and over again.

It is reasonable to question whether this account is scriptural. There are three possibilities - 1) It was originally part of John, 2) It was not originally in John, but was a true account recorded elsewhere (ie is midrash / apocryphal) that had such high validity it was copied into John later by scribes who were genuinely trying to preserve records of the facts, 3) It is a later fabrication. However a significant discussion on the scriptural validity or otherwise of this passage is scheduled for another thread soon, once [USER=2034]@IshChayil
has his notes in order.

If 3 is correct, there's no point discussing the passage at all and this can all be thrown out as irrelevant. Conversation over (on this thread anyway).

If 1 or 2 is correct and the passage has at least enough historical merit to warrant discussion:
Yeshua was approached by men with a woman they claimed was caught in adultery, who said "Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?". This was entrapment. They were trying to catch him out. If he said "don't stone her", they'd say he was saying the law did not apply. If he said "stone her" they'd say he advocated disobeying Roman laws that forbade the Jews from putting anyone to death - if he started the stoning himself they'd have him red handed. If he came to either judgement they'd accuse him of presuming to be a judge and take the place of the Sanhedrin. If he refused to issue any advice they'd say he didn't understand scripture well enough and was no Rabbi. It was a cunningly devised minefield.

His response was in two parts, firstly "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." This was an application of Deuteronomy 17:7 - the hands of the accusers should be first to stone the accused, and after then the assembly. In other words, it was not Yeshua's business to start any stoning, it was their problem, they were the accusers. What would they do? Were they truly confident that their evidence and determination was strong enough for them to risk the wrath of the Roman authorities for sentencing someone to death against secular law? Remembering that they too were sinners... At this the accusers chickened out and sneaked away.

His second statement was "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? ... Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.". This applied Deuteronomy 17:6 & Numbers 35:30 - two witnesses were required for her to be stoned. Without two witnesses, Torah is very clear that she could not be stoned. Even if, knowing everything, he did know she was guilty, he was only one witness and Torah required two (and she may have been innocent anyway).
His response was a direct application of the due process in Torah, embedded with his flavour of grace.

More could be said about how His response was directly based on Torah, and has been said by many previous posters. I see no reason to rehash all of this. My point is simply:
  • If valid, this account does not in any way say that Yeshua went against Torah, on the contrary He followed it to the letter.
  • If invalid, this account is not worth discussing anyway.
[/QUOTE]

I just loved your reasoning on this, @FollowingHim. It's a great example of the value of refraining from out-of-context proof-texting. One can find isolated verses that seem to support a particular position, but taking that approach just makes one positional. You've managed to put together a unified field theory here, and I applaud you for that.

I, for one, do not know how to require of myself in this instance that I take an all-or-nothing stand about whether the passage belongs or doesn't belong in Big Bad John, but at the very least, to me, it smacks of being a reflection of a story that was at least going around way back when -- and it appears to me to be entirely reflective of the essence of Christ's meaning for those of us who follow Him as part of His Body: He intended for us to recalibrate ourselves from allegiance to the world, to governments or to religious authorities . . . back to allegiance to our Heavenly Father, His Father. And it's a perfect moral tale for how He Who fulfilled the Law managed to exemplify that in this instance while pointing in the direction of the Mystery of Grace that He would eventually reveal through Paul. Thank you for laying out the bullet points so well.

Well this may be straining at gnats but technically Jesus was two to three witnesses depending on where you fall on the binitarian/Trinitarian thing...

Hi @ZecAustin, is your affection for me sufficient to allow me to expand the continuum thingy to include Unitarians?

And I'll just close by saying that I love that story about shaming of the stoners, because it's just another example of Christ's ability to fend off the unrelenting efforts of the Pharisees and Scribes to trap Him into violating their sacrosanct traditions.[/user]
 
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I find myself in complete agreement with you on this point, Valiant One, although I tend to also agree with Sir Austin's parallel assertion about no prophetic experts.
Cute, but it doesn't really require a prophetic gift to recognize grammatical constructs... compared to fields like Engineering, medicine, architecture, etc. languages are really quite doable when considering return on invested time. There are agreed upon standards: standard grammars and lexicons; no spirit of prophecy required. With the tools available today, many free, one doesn't even need to complete a full biblical languages course and I'm sure you agree with the spirit of my original point which was that only the autographia (scripture in the original languages) is infallible; not mistranslations.

This is why its nice there are usually agreements among However, that does leave us with the conundrum of necessarily defining biblical knowledge as being something that will never be available to the average person, due to the general average lack of 3 hours per day to devote to study of ancient languages for the purposes of becoming enlightened about five minutes before becoming worm food.
Well 3 hours a day gets someone fairly fluent in the Hebrew in a year or two, not just before one "becomes worm food" unless they start at 99... faster if G-d helps the person. Just cutting out the evening news, or football, or some other idol can catapult someone's bible learning with an hour a day focused study.
We are commanded to love G-d with all of our mind/intellect (that's the absolute correct translation of the meat of the most important commandment), happy to prove it with LXX translations, etc. if someone doesn't believe it. We can justify not studying (i.e. not loving with our mind/intellect) using a myriad of excuses and just depend on the preacher to tell us all how to think about our bibles, or we can obey the command to love with our minds/intellect. This obviously doesn't have to be language study for everyone but it is also very important to have many folks doing this kind of study as well and it doesn't take nearly as long as one may imagine to get to a relatively fluent level in either Hebrew or Greek. It is, however, hard to get folks studying in our tv/youtube culture. Imagine the audio, visual, flashcard, etc helps available if someone passes on upgrading their car or buying that spiffy flatscreen to watch a bunch of guys throw a ball around.
Also, regarding "enlightenment", we learn gradually and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It's not a samsara nirvana thing going on like one only benefits from study at the last moment "ah that's how I get saved!" plop! dead. :)

As a fan of the Concordant Literal translations, I also probably sit astride the chasm between those who insist on only using actual original manuscripts and those who insist on only using extant manuscript pieces and chunks that are the most plentiful.
More often it's the oldest complete manuscripts that win the day, not sheer quantity... just fyi. In addition, literal translations often miss the boat with regard to idioms and the such. Though it is nice that Young's uses "synagogue" in reference to the church and not just in reference to the "synagogue of satan" as all other English translations I've ever seen do (while making the same Greek word an "assembly" for the Christians).

I find the more original the better but that sometimes nothing original exists, and then it's probably best to combine true knowledge of the idioms of the era with evidence of agreement that goes back the farthest. I also lean toward rewarding consistency, rather than consistent mistranslation for the purpose of advancing Church agendas.
Agreed brother...this is result that language study gives. As @andrew has put it in the past, Protestants are "protesting Catholics"(me speaking now) so even if you have a panel of translators they are all under a certain thumb of norms they must abide by...i.e. "Polygamy bad, monogamy good" [imagine caveman tone]


Add to all of this the great tools available today for this generation and most will never need to obtain fluency in a biblical language; just some basic knowledge opens up to good bible study especially if the spirit is leading the person to which mistranslated verses feel suspicious.
"The interpretation of a mistranslation results in a secondary error and confounds the original confusion." – Otis Q. Sellers (1901-1992)
I'm not aware of any Biblical Language enthusiast who would encourage anyone to "interpret a mistranslation"...that would be a colossal example of missing the point of learning the languages... the only touching of the mistranslations is when forced to interact with them when someone quotes from one.

shalom
 
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Cute, . . . and I'm sure you agree with the spirit of my original point which was that only the autographia (scripture in the original languages) is infallible; not mistranslations.


I do indeed agree.

In addition, literal translations often miss the boat with regard to idioms and the such. Though it is nice that Young's uses "synagogue" in reference to the church and not just in reference to the "synagogue of satan" as all other English translations I've ever seen do (while making the same Greek word an "assembly" for the Christians).


Again, I agree with you here as well, @IshChayil. It is essential for comprehension of Divine Word to literally translate the idiom. To just literally translate word-for-word makes one guilty of failing to acknowledge context. That's why I rarely refer to Young, because way too often the context is lost. We may as well restrict translation to folks with autism and schizophrenia if we don't mind losing the sense of what was written in the original languages. I consider no translation to be perfect, but I tend to rely most heavily on the CVOT and the CLNT (for those with failing vision, that's an 'L', not a 'U').​

 
So if you're gonna go with Textus Receptus Zec you can also cook up your pork chops tonight because that reliable text has the addition
"He therefore declared all foods clean" is added to that text.
Kind of hard to say you gotta eat Kosher with that nice little later addition.

You can't have it both ways, you loves you some Textus Receptus or you don'ts..
Yummy Bacon Receptus coming Zec's way!
View attachment 364 Yummmmm textus receptus dietary freedoms.
My stand is that we are not required to follow the old testament Civil or ceremonial laws. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial laws with his sinless sacrifice on the cross. And we no longer live in the civil society that was established in the old testament. Of course someone may choose to follow those things but I don't believe that it's a requirement. The old testament is the foundational moral laws that govern our daily walk with the Lord...
 
My stand is that we are not required to follow the old testament Civil or ceremonial laws. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial laws with his sinless sacrifice on the cross. And we no longer live in the civil society that was established in the old testament. Of course someone may choose to follow those things but I don't believe that it's a requirement. The old testament is the foundational moral laws that govern our daily walk with the Lord...
I don't completely disagree with you but keep in mind that the New Testament does not forbid either bestiality or most forms of incest so I wouldn't free myself from the Law too fast....
 
I don't completely disagree with you but keep in mind that the New Testament does not forbid either bestiality or most forms of incest so I wouldn't free myself from the Law too fast....
That would fall under the moral law which I believe we should be following. But without the civil penalty that went with it...
 
We are from the condemnation of the law but not the responsibility to obey it out of love for our Saviour.
I agree with you as this relates to the moral law. But not the civil or ceremonial law.
 
My stand is that we are not required to follow the old testament Civil or ceremonial laws. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial laws with his sinless sacrifice on the cross. And we no longer live in the civil society that was established in the old testament. Of course someone may choose to follow those things but I don't believe that it's a requirement. The old testament is the foundational moral laws that govern our daily walk with the Lord...
Zec and I are both torah keepers (or at least we try to be) that's why I wrote that part in there as I thought it might be important to him to know what was added.
I don't want to get into picking apart which parts of the law apply and which parts were just until the Messiah came here.
It's a deep subject that's been hashed out in many of the threads here and I don't think anyone here has ever changed their pro-torah or antinomian stance here.

In other words, I'm not gonna take the bait this time :)
 
Zec and I are both torah keepers (or at least we try to be) that's why I wrote that part in there as I thought it might be important to him to know what was added.
I don't want to get into picking apart which parts of the law apply and which parts were just until the Messiah came here.
It's a deep subject that's been hashed out in many of the threads here and I don't think anyone here has ever changed their pro-torah or antinomian stance here.

In other words, I'm not gonna take the bait this time :)

Understood. Not trying to start an argument. I will look around and see what I can find on the subject from past threads...
 
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