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General What do we know about TTWCM?

Well, "husband and wife" is just "man and woman." I think the "usual" word for "husband" is just man ( אִ֔ישׁ ). The overwhelming usage is "man" = "husband" and "woman" = wife.

Ba'al occurs . . . but it would be relatively infrequent by comparison.

Here is a fairly complete list for "ba'al" as husband: Ex 2:13 Gn 20:3 Dt 22:22, cj. Lv 21:4; Ex 21:22 Dt 24:4 2S 11:26 Pr 12:4 31:11-23, 28; Ho 2:18; Joel 1:9, Est 1:17-20. I could do some more checking, but this is going to catch a lion's share.

I did catch an interesting usage in Gen 20:3

But God came to Abimelek in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman." (Gen 20:3 NIV)

The phrase in Hebrew is וְהִ֖וא בְּעֻ֥לַת בָּֽעַל׃ (Gen 20:3 WTT)

Literally, "And she (is/has been) being ba'aled by a ba'al." So you translated that as "has been ruled over by a husband" or more colloquially "has been being husbanded of a husband." It's a passive participle in construct so should probably be related as a genitive. Again, pretty uncommon way of expressing it, though.
 
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Yes, so that messes with my definition. I'll try again.

"Marriage is the state of a man having exclusive sexual rights to a woman."

When I write that, I am thinking about marriage in all societies and cultures, and trying to ensure that the definition is broad enough to correctly apply to any non-Christian in any society I can think of who we would consider to be "married". I initially said "Marriage is the state of a man owning a woman", but the problem with that definition is that in Western secular society, a man most certainly does not "own" his woman - yet we would consider them to be married. So "own" is not a defining feature of all marriages, even if it was a defining feature of most marriages in scripture.
 
And @b_ce . . . the probably the first definition for ba'al is about lordship/ownership. I would have to do some more research but I think that most of the following definitions share that core. "The Lords of Shechem (ba'alay Shechem) could be translated as "Citizens" (in the Old Greek sense) or just as easily "Lords." The "owner of the bull" (ba'al hashor) or "owner of the house" (ba'al habayit) could just as easily be translated the "Lord of the bull" or the "Lord of the house."

How much of "Lordship" translates to the sense of "marriage" is uncertain, but the idea of "ownership" or "responsibility for" or "headship" is likely key: especially in light of the metaphors between Christ and the church in the NT.
 
And @b_ce . . . the probably the first definition for ba'al is about lordship/ownership. I would have to do some more research but I think that most of the following definitions share that core. "The Lords of Shechem (ba'alay Shechem) could be translated as "Citizens" (in the Old Greek sense) or just as easily "Lords." The "owner of the bull" (ba'al hashor) or "owner of the house" (ba'al habayit) could just as easily be translated the "Lord of the bull" or the "Lord of the house."

How much of "Lordship" translates to the sense of "marriage" is uncertain, but the idea of "ownership" or "responsibility for" or "headship" is likely key: especially in light of the metaphors between Christ and the church in the NT.
Fascinating how much God elevated every man to lordship over something.
 
Exodus 21:4
If his lord give to him a wife, and she hath borne to him sons or daughters -- the wife and her children are her lord's, and he goeth out by himself.

The servant woman remains the property of the lord who owned her. She does not go with the man who had sex with her and had children through her. The children in this situation do not go with the man who sired them. This has some strong implications on adultery. What is she to do? Chew on this one.
 
Exodus 21:4
If his lord give to him a wife, and she hath borne to him sons or daughters -- the wife and her children are her lord's, and he goeth out by himself.

The servant woman remains the property of the lord who owned her. She does not go with the man who had sex with her and had children through her. The children in this situation do not go with the man who sired them. This has some strong implications on adultery. What is she to do? Chew on this one.
He knew from the get-go what the score was.
He knew that he was going to leave and couldn’t take her.
If he wanted to live as man and wife, he should be prepared for the awl through his ear.

She didn’t have a whole lot of choices.
She could hope that he would stay.
 
When it comes to ownership, I believe the Shepherd and sheep dichotomy is another ideal argument that shows this.

God through Nathan refers to David's wives as flocks and herds, and Bathsheba, another man's ewe lamb.

“And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: but the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.”
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭12‬:‭1‬-‭3‬

Jesus' bride, us, are also His sheep. I believe the wife to her husband is the same exact way, a sheep to him to care for. He is her shepherd. And the best of shepherds emulate the Good Shepherd, who gives His life for them.

The misunderstanding of polygyny probably comes directly from this. If it is understood that a man is master, keeper, owner, whichever word works best, over his wife, then the negative connotation over having more than one wife disappears. Like a shepherd having more than one sheep.
 
Yes, so that messes with my definition. I'll try again.

"Marriage is the state of a man having exclusive sexual rights to a woman."

When I write that, I am thinking about marriage in all societies and cultures, and trying to ensure that the definition is broad enough to correctly apply to any non-Christian in any society I can think of who we would consider to be "married". I initially said "Marriage is the state of a man owning a woman", but the problem with that definition is that in Western secular society, a man most certainly does not "own" his woman - yet we would consider them to be married. So "own" is not a defining feature of all marriages, even if it was a defining feature of most marriages in scripture.
The problem here is that in many countries today the man doesn't have exclusive sexual rights to a woman in marriage. In many cases he has no such right at all, exclusive or not. All he has is obligations to her. In America at least, marriage is entirely corrupted. So it doesn't matter that men today doesn't 'own' his woman, what matters is how the scriptures speak of TTWCM.

And that is of a woman who is under the authority of a man (https://biblehub.com/greek/5220.htm). But while there are many many verses demonstrating this, I fear even this basic level is subject to much debate.

That’s why it needs its own thread. I think it is pretty clearly named.

I'm not so sure that it is. I may be missing it but when I look at the original languages behind passages with the English word 'marriage' there isn't a Hebrew/Greek equivalent. Usually it's a translation of a verb (i.e. to take, to dower, to give) or the wedding feast. The above reference may be the only exception (and it's used only once).
 
The problem here is that in many countries today the man doesn't have exclusive sexual rights to a woman in marriage. In many cases he has no such right at all, exclusive or not. All he has is obligations to her. In America at least, marriage is entirely corrupted. So it doesn't matter that men today doesn't 'own' his woman, what matters is how the scriptures speak of TTWCM.

And that is of a woman who is under the authority of a man (https://biblehub.com/greek/5220.htm). But while there are many many verses demonstrating this, I fear even this basic level is subject to much debate.



I'm not so sure that it is. I may be missing it but when I look at the original languages behind passages with the English word 'marriage' there isn't a Hebrew/Greek equivalent. Usually it's a translation of a verb (i.e. to take, to dower, to give) or the wedding feast. The above reference may be the only exception (and it's used only once).
We know what Christ called it.
 
Would you agree that biblical marriage is considered ownership? I've looked into the word husband, and it means master. But especially in Hebrew, often used baal, meaning lord, owner, or master. For instance, how you're not to covet another man's wife among the rest of his possesions like his servants or ox.

Which would make sense when you look at the relationship of God and His nations Jesus and His church. Don't they technically own them? Christ paid for the church with his blood per se like a dowry, and they day will come when His name will be in all of their foreheads. Is that His husband(master) role, and why the wife party cannot seek another?

“No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16‬:‭13‬

Yes 100%
 
I believe we are asking the wrong question (what do we actually know about This Thing We Call Marriage) or it means Ownership.
Anytime a man has Ownership of Female or his wife that man has access to them sexually, the female must be in submission to only 1 Male Master.
This is Kind of Like what we think of Marriage because This One Female has only One Male Master and that Male master can have many female servants.

Wife: Be a helper to your husband (Covenant) Yes
Unmarried Raped Woman: “the man who raped her is to give the young woman's father fifty silver shekels, and she will become his wife"
Concubine: a wife or sexual partner of secondary status (Covenant) No
Bonds/Slave Woman: a woman held in forced servitude (Covenant) No
Handmaiden:
a female servant who serves her mistress (Covenant) No

All of these are very much like Marriage as I as The Husband/Lord Owns them, now there are differences. They and Everything they own is mine even there female servants I own. We are to Love our Wives, We are to Treat Slaves/Servants Kindly so almost in every way they are the same expect Inheritance.


Marriage = Ownership
 
What passage? I think you’re confused.
My assumption was your oft referenced Matthew 19. If you weren't referring to that I'd be shocked and what I said may not relate.

Every instance I've seen you reference "one flesh" you eisegete it to mean the definition of marriage. You replace the phrase "one flesh" (echad bawar - heis sarx) with the singular word "married/marriage" They are not the same, you can tell because they're spelled differently. Like magazine and clip. You can tell they're different cause they're spelled differently. An M1 Garand uses an en bloc clip, an AR 15 uses a magazine. Similar but different. The two things are NOT interchangeable.

I've addressed this numerous times with no real rebuttal from you that I can remember. I always say something along the lines of assuming one flesh means marriage is not borne out in scripture therefore it's eisegesis. You can't replace one word for another. That's exactly what happens when you say one flesh means married. Scripture does not use that word interchangeably. They mean different things. Otherwise there would be one term. Every time we clash over this you always go to the logical fallacy of begging the question by assuming one flesh means married. You bypass the core issue and jump right past it to find a way to bolster the eisegesis of the passages instead of reading out of the text what is actually said. (exegesis)


Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.

You're a major stickler for strict clear description in scripture. Where in scripture does God tell us one flesh literally means married? It doesn't exist. You can eisegete it into existence, but that's not how it works.

Cleaving to your woman and uniting your bodies happens in a God honoring relationship between a man and woman.
Cleaving to a man and uniting your flesh with his happens in sodomy. This is not a correct relationship.
A wife cleaving to another man and becoming one flesh with a man other than her husband does not create a marriage but it happens. This is also not a correct relationship
A man or woman lying down with a beast is the same thing happening but marriage does not occur. Not a correct relationship
Whoring or prostitution creates one flesh but not "marriage"

Since scripture does not say becoming one flesh is how a man obtains a woman, we must not create a new idea not found in scripture. There are numerous ways a man can acquire a woman and the right to have sexual relations with her.
A man obtains a woman through purchase and agreeing to a contract.
A man obtains a woman through the woman's father giving her to him.
A man obtains a woman through capturing her on the battlefield, bringing her home, shaving her head, trimming her nails, washing her, leaving her for a month to mourn. etc
There are numerous ways a man obtains a wife. In all of these, the natural expression of this intimate relationship does include going in unto her, knowing her, laying down with her.

But laying down with her does not create a proper relationship according to God. There are numerous passages I've already provided that prove "sex only" to be false. Tamar, the Exodus passage on slaves, Paul's description of laying with a prostitute, the woman at the well. There are others.

I know you want a cut and dried statement from God saying "Here's one crazy trick that makes a marriage". But that's not in the book. What I find is a man owning the right to sow seed, and keep the product of that sowing. I find numerous passages where sexual union occurs and there is no "marriage" or ownership. Here are a few.

  • A man who takes an unbetrothed virgin. She doesn't belong to him until he obtains permission and pays for her. Sex alone did not create ownership.
  • A man takes a married or betrothed woman in a field where she cried out for help. She is not punished and remains the posession of her husband. The rapist does not become her husband despite fulfilling the sex only qualification.
  • A woman given to a man, both slaves, the slave man does not own her or the children, when he goes free, she does not go with him because she isn't his despite having fulfilled the sex only qualification.

These all make abundantly clear that sex cannot and does not constitute the end all be all "one crazy trick to make a marriage".
Rather, it is often a component in a proper relationship context.

I really dislike the term marriage. It's an idea/word that has been so perverted as to make it nearly impossible to discuss the topic clearly and do so with scriptural definitions.
 
My assumption was your oft referenced Matthew 19. If you weren't referring to that I'd be shocked and what I said may not relate.

Every instance I've seen you reference "one flesh" you eisegete it to mean the definition of marriage. You replace the phrase "one flesh" (echad bawar - heis sarx) with the singular word "married/marriage" They are not the same, you can tell because they're spelled differently. Like magazine and clip. You can tell they're different cause they're spelled differently. An M1 Garand uses an en bloc clip, an AR 15 uses a magazine. Similar but different. The two things are NOT interchangeable.

I've addressed this numerous times with no real rebuttal from you that I can remember. I always say something along the lines of assuming one flesh means marriage is not borne out in scripture therefore it's eisegesis. You can't replace one word for another. That's exactly what happens when you say one flesh means married. Scripture does not use that word interchangeably. They mean different things. Otherwise there would be one term. Every time we clash over this you always go to the logical fallacy of begging the question by assuming one flesh means married. You bypass the core issue and jump right past it to find a way to bolster the eisegesis of the passages instead of reading out of the text what is actually said. (exegesis)



You're a major stickler for strict clear description in scripture. Where in scripture does God tell us one flesh literally means married? It doesn't exist. You can eisegete it into existence, but that's not how it works.

Cleaving to your woman and uniting your bodies happens in a God honoring relationship between a man and woman.
Cleaving to a man and uniting your flesh with his happens in sodomy. This is not a correct relationship.
A wife cleaving to another man and becoming one flesh with a man other than her husband does not create a marriage but it happens. This is also not a correct relationship
A man or woman lying down with a beast is the same thing happening but marriage does not occur. Not a correct relationship
Whoring or prostitution creates one flesh but not "marriage"

Since scripture does not say becoming one flesh is how a man obtains a woman, we must not create a new idea not found in scripture. There are numerous ways a man can acquire a woman and the right to have sexual relations with her.
A man obtains a woman through purchase and agreeing to a contract.
A man obtains a woman through the woman's father giving her to him.
A man obtains a woman through capturing her on the battlefield, bringing her home, shaving her head, trimming her nails, washing her, leaving her for a month to mourn. etc
There are numerous ways a man obtains a wife. In all of these, the natural expression of this intimate relationship does include going in unto her, knowing her, laying down with her.

But laying down with her does not create a proper relationship according to God. There are numerous passages I've already provided that prove "sex only" to be false. Tamar, the Exodus passage on slaves, Paul's description of laying with a prostitute, the woman at the well. There are others.

I know you want a cut and dried statement from God saying "Here's one crazy trick that makes a marriage". But that's not in the book. What I find is a man owning the right to sow seed, and keep the product of that sowing. I find numerous passages where sexual union occurs and there is no "marriage" or ownership. Here are a few.

  • A man who takes an unbetrothed virgin. She doesn't belong to him until he obtains permission and pays for her. Sex alone did not create ownership.
  • A man takes a married or betrothed woman in a field where she cried out for help. She is not punished and remains the posession of her husband. The rapist does not become her husband despite fulfilling the sex only qualification.
  • A woman given to a man, both slaves, the slave man does not own her or the children, when he goes free, she does not go with him because she isn't his despite having fulfilled the sex only qualification.

These all make abundantly clear that sex cannot and does not constitute the end all be all "one crazy trick to make a marriage".
Rather, it is often a component in a proper relationship context.

I really dislike the term marriage. It's an idea/word that has been so perverted as to make it nearly impossible to discuss the topic clearly and do so with scriptural definitions.

100% Agree!
 
Every instance I've seen you reference "one flesh" you eisegete it to mean the definition of marriage. You replace the phrase "one flesh" (echad bawar - heis sarx) with the singular word "married/marriage" They are not the same, you can tell because they're spelled differently. Like magazine and clip. You can tell they're different cause they're spelled differently. An M1 Garand uses an en bloc clip, an AR 15 uses a magazine. Similar but different. The two things are NOT interchangeable.
Absolutely - this has always been the difficulty in these discussions. @The Revolting Man, please pay particular attention to this paragraph. I know you have answers for some of the long list of things that @NickF has written in the remainder of his long post, but it would be a mistake to get distracted into disputing details and missing the core point.
 
We’re getting off topic.
My assumption was your oft referenced Matthew 19. If you weren't referring to that I'd be shocked and what I said may not relate.

Every instance I've seen you reference "one flesh" you eisegete it to mean the definition of marriage. You replace the phrase "one flesh" (echad bawar - heis sarx) with the singular word "married/marriage" They are not the same, you can tell because they're spelled differently. Like magazine and clip. You can tell they're different cause they're spelled differently. An M1 Garand uses an en bloc clip, an AR 15 uses a magazine. Similar but different. The two things are NOT interchangeable.

I've addressed this numerous times with no real rebuttal from you that I can remember. I always say something along the lines of assuming one flesh means marriage is not borne out in scripture therefore it's eisegesis. You can't replace one word for another. That's exactly what happens when you say one flesh means married. Scripture does not use that word interchangeably. They mean different things. Otherwise there would be one term. Every time we clash over this you always go to the logical fallacy of begging the question by assuming one flesh means married. You bypass the core issue and jump right past it to find a way to bolster the eisegesis of the passages instead of reading out of the text what is actually said. (exegesis)



You're a major stickler for strict clear description in scripture. Where in scripture does God tell us one flesh literally means married? It doesn't exist. You can eisegete it into existence, but that's not how it works.

Cleaving to your woman and uniting your bodies happens in a God honoring relationship between a man and woman.
Cleaving to a man and uniting your flesh with his happens in sodomy. This is not a correct relationship.
A wife cleaving to another man and becoming one flesh with a man other than her husband does not create a marriage but it happens. This is also not a correct relationship
A man or woman lying down with a beast is the same thing happening but marriage does not occur. Not a correct relationship
Whoring or prostitution creates one flesh but not "marriage"

Since scripture does not say becoming one flesh is how a man obtains a woman, we must not create a new idea not found in scripture. There are numerous ways a man can acquire a woman and the right to have sexual relations with her.
A man obtains a woman through purchase and agreeing to a contract.
A man obtains a woman through the woman's father giving her to him.
A man obtains a woman through capturing her on the battlefield, bringing her home, shaving her head, trimming her nails, washing her, leaving her for a month to mourn. etc
There are numerous ways a man obtains a wife. In all of these, the natural expression of this intimate relationship does include going in unto her, knowing her, laying down with her.

But laying down with her does not create a proper relationship according to God. There are numerous passages I've already provided that prove "sex only" to be false. Tamar, the Exodus passage on slaves, Paul's description of laying with a prostitute, the woman at the well. There are others.

I know you want a cut and dried statement from God saying "Here's one crazy trick that makes a marriage". But that's not in the book. What I find is a man owning the right to sow seed, and keep the product of that sowing. I find numerous passages where sexual union occurs and there is no "marriage" or ownership. Here are a few.

  • A man who takes an unbetrothed virgin. She doesn't belong to him until he obtains permission and pays for her. Sex alone did not create ownership.
  • A man takes a married or betrothed woman in a field where she cried out for help. She is not punished and remains the posession of her husband. The rapist does not become her husband despite fulfilling the sex only qualification.
  • A woman given to a man, both slaves, the slave man does not own her or the children, when he goes free, she does not go with him because she isn't his despite having fulfilled the sex only qualification.

These all make abundantly clear that sex cannot and does not constitute the end all be all "one crazy trick to make a marriage".
Rather, it is often a component in a proper relationship context.

I really dislike the term marriage. It's an idea/word that has been so perverted as to make it nearly impossible to discuss the topic clearly and do so with scriptural definitions.
wow. I have completely failed at communicating my ideas. Unfortunately this thread is marked support and it’s for cataloging undeniable information about the bond between a man and a woman. I’ll start a new thread and a new attempt to be more clear.
 
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