• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Thoughts on men's authority over women

bluearrow89 said:
I have spoken with at least three women on poly dating websites and family members who are anti-poly over the past few years and they claimed that this site was mainly a bunch of men who have little to no respect for women.
Click to expand...
Ok, so this is the actual problem you're trying to address, correct?

I've heard this before, and I think it comes from a miss-understanding. First of all, most of the people that comment here are men. While there are women that choose not to comment because they are uncomfortable with the atmosphere, they are rare, the majority of women that don't comment simply don't have the time or don't find it something they are interested in doing. Because it's mostly men here, they tend to talk a lot. And they talk big. It can come across as off-putting, but the men here really aren't that bad, at least most of them :D.

This is also an internet forum. On ANY internet forum, you'll find people tend to say things they wouldn't actually do or say in real life. On top of that there's theological discussions, which means that people might be discussing what scripture says, and being far more harsh than they would in real life. The reality is that the world is a grey place, people end up in giant messes, and sometimes we need to apply scripture and the love of Jesus as best we can, while not holding to the letter of the law.

Lastly, this forum is unapologetically a biblically patriarchal forum. It has always been so, and will always remain so. There are always going to be those that don't see eye to eye with that, and the majority of them will be women.
 
@frederick: Out of interest, Sarah wrote that, but she then asked me to check and approve it, and I hit the post button myself once I'd read it. I mention this because the way she approached this illustrates her excellent character, and is very relevant to the topic of discussion. It's a great example of voluntary submission and cooperation in ministry, and I am very pleased to have her as my wife.
 
Believe me, @bluearrow89, I have had my own concerns here about men being off-putting. Over time, though, I came to realize that, while some of that does go on, it would be far more destructive to attempt to altogether prevent it, because, as is often pointed out, much of the function of this site is to provide a venue for "iron sharpening iron." The point made about this being a site that supports patriarchy may be the most salient one in this discussion, because this group stands for supporting patriarchy, which means it would be counterproductive for us to make getting approval from those who don't support patriarchy. If women shy away from Biblical Families because they are opposed to patriarchy, then it would seem to me that both they and we are all better off. The world surely does provide more than enough forums for discussion for people who either promote or are under the sway of postmodern feminism, and it's not our responsibility to make such people feel entirely welcome here.

FollowingHim said:
In that statement, @Keith Martin is not asserting any form of authority over this woman. Rather, he is gently pointing out that some things are better discussed with the husband directly rather than behind his back (if that is the case, which he does not assume but just recognises is a possibility). On multiple occasions we have had someone share personal information here without the knowledge of their spouse (or sisterwife), the sharing of which actually inflamed tensions when their spouse (or sisterwife, in other instances) found out. As our intent is to heal tensions not inflame them, past experience has shown that this is a prudent thing to remind people of. It is not a "scolding".
Click to expand...

I also want to assure you that @FollowingHim is right on point about where I was coming from. I have no authority over the woman in question or any other women other than the women in my family, all of whom are either my children or have voluntarily entered into a relationship that acknowledges that authority (if you knew me you would know that I'm the one in my marriage who had to be rehabilitated from my past denial-of-male-authority life approach).

What I was confronting that you reacted to was a situation that displayed every indication that a husband was being negatively represented without either his consent or his full knowledge, so I suggested that we should hear from him. It is neither appropriate nor productive for women to come here looking for emotional support related to their complaints about their husbands. That could be appropriate, perhaps, in a private conversation between a woman and another woman if done discreetly, but, as has already been mentioned by others, doing so in an open forum has, in our experience, been either a display of disrespect for the husband combined with a failure to communicate with him or a veiled attempt to denigrate Biblical polygamy.

We're here to support each other related to Biblical polygamy. This isn't a playground for being criticized for it or for behaving in a way that makes living a lifestyle that already has enough challenges even more difficult.
 
frederick said:
^^^ If you were male, I'd say, Preach it! :D ;)
Click to expand...
FollowingHim said:
@frederick: Out of interest, Sarah wrote that, but she then asked me to check and approve it, and I hit the post button myself once I'd read it. I mention this because the way she approached this illustrates her excellent character, and is very relevant to the topic of discussion. It's a great example of voluntary submission and cooperation in ministry, and I am very pleased to have her as my wife.
Click to expand...
I totally believe in women preaching, but only under the authority and with the consent of their husband.
Sarah modeled it perfectly.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
Lastly, this forum is unapologetically a biblically patriarchal forum. It has always been so, and will always remain so. There are always going to be those that don't see eye to eye with that, and the majority of them will be women.
Click to expand...
Bingo! Why would we ever seek the approval of the ignorant or rebellious?

A woman submitted to her husband and representing him accurately is operating under his authority. This is the familial version of a man accurately and truthfully representing Yeshua/Jesus, who accurately and truthfully represented YHWH.

Authority comes from above. Only one who is UNDER authority has any, and there are limits to it.

The centurion who said "I am a man under authority.....just speak the word and my servant will be healed" understood. That is faith exhibited in affirming the wisdom of our creator, and His power over all creation. Ole Nebuchadnezzar had a powerful testimony.....after eating grass. One many Christians could learn from.
 
bluearrow89 said:
I am really sorry you feel that way as it was not my intent to judge anyone.
Click to expand...
Brother, you have asked a question about things we have had to deal with in the past. Admittedly, it may have gone sideways from time to time, but at least one of the examples included a married woman somewhat lecturing others, including men of this site ( in a reverse of what you described).

Your concerns about what others have to say about us are legitimate. It's always profitable to hear the feedback outside of our little world here. It's possible to become insular and myopic. However, if you look deeper, you will more than likely see that the concerns of others often comes with a non-biblical mindset of egalitarianism at best, and feminism, at worst, so entrenched in the modern Western church that anything outside of it seems brash, harsh, unloving and anathema. I only know a few families on here personally, but I'm sure if you were to visit the homes of the majority of the men here, you will see loving husbands and fathers. You will see wives who are more than willing to follow the lead of their God fearing, leadership minded husbands who are unabashedly male, caring and, and sold out to the well being of their tribe.

There are both males and females with ulterior and nefarious agendas that come on here from time to time. Some have used this site in an attempt to entrap or indict a spouse. As @Keith Martin was likely trying to do, we feel an obligation to not let secrecy rule the day in one's home. It's common for us to invite both spouses to this site, and encourage full transparency when possible.

I could go on more, but I hope you see where we are coming from.
 
bluearrow89 said:
This seems to be stemming from the belief that she should not be asking questions of other members on the forum if she is married, and that she should reserve these questions for her husband.
Click to expand...
This ‘belief’, as you referred, is my belief. I would hope that my wife and I have reached a point that we can discuss any topic openly and freely. Sometimes those open and free discussions are more like “Intense Fellowship” rather than a light hearted discussion, but if both sides are free to say their opinion, no matter the intensity of the discussion, you have a functional family. Dis function can be as simple as a ‘non-conversational’ dinner stemming from a fear of the rebuttal.

In reference to a wife and husband, I would like to think there are open discussions where both are free to discuss. That being said, prior to discussing issues on an open forum, a couple should discuss, seek the scriptures, use the Biblical reference of go to your brother, talk to him, if still in a disagreement, then get a brother or two, if still in disagreement, then take it before the church.

I would advise against going straight to a forum to prove to your spouse whether you are correct or not. Unless, of course, your objective is bigger argument.
 
I get what you're saying @Phillip, but I'd temper it a bit. Women should feel welcome to ask questions here.

If a woman is dealing with difficult issues, and has not felt she can discuss them with her husband, she should certainly ask for input here. She might be told "you should discuss this with your husband", and that could actually get her having that discussion that should have already been happening. But the act of asking us may be what causes that to happen.

In other situations, women truly are dealing with issues that their husbands refuse to discuss. Or, they have husbands who are seriously sinning against them, or telling them to sin (or do something they perceive would be sinful). In such circumstances, outside counsel can be essential to help a woman to process what she is going through, and work out what submission to her husband looks like in those circumstances.

Finally, women often just need to talk things over with other women - and this forum provides an opportunity for that.

So yes, ideally, a man and wife should be able to discuss anything, and should choose to do so. But in those circumstances, people don't actually seek marital advice, as they already have a healthy marriage and work out whatever issues they are facing between themselves and God. People approach us when the situation is NOT ideal - and in those situations, there is certainly a place for external counsel as a stepping-stone towards the ideal.
 
bluearrow89 said:
I have spoken with at least three women on poly dating websites and family members who are anti-poly over the past few years and they claimed that this site was mainly a bunch of men who have little to no respect for women.
Click to expand...

Are those people supporting of patriarchy? To the ignorant patriarchy itself is a lack of respect for women. Always love to have that discussion.

bluearrow89 said:
I was intending for there to be a constructive discussion on the authority men have to instruct or correct women who dont belong to them.
Click to expand...

Excellent. No harm in discussing the subject.

To be fair I try to instruct and correct the men on here, too (with limited success).

It is a fine line when a woman (married or not) asks questions on here. I always try to be helpful. Sometimes if it is just for discussion it is good to talk about it, but sometimes if it is an authority type of question the best answer is to suggest that she ask her Father or Husband.

There is no across the board right answer, so I think it takes Christian maturity to know what the best answer is when, and I am sure we do not always get it right, but we do have excellent moderators to back us up, and if you feel as if someone is responding harshly or inappropriately then you or anyone else can always report it.

If there is a place where you think the moderators got it wrong it would be good to point it out and then we can have that discussion.
 
Also, if women feel as if some or all of the men are oppressive or they are being silenced in any way, there is also a women's only forum on here where they are free to discuss whatever the like without men causing issues (including any concerns or problems there are having with men on here. :)
 
I can speak from direct personal experience: @cnystrom is an awesome human being, so I really appreciate his input here. He addressed most of the legs of the stool.

I would just add that, while it is certainly true that only husbands or fathers have authority over women, the converse of that is that -- just as it's inappropriate for men to boss around women who aren't their wives or daughters -- it's also not our place to swoop down as saviors to rescue someone else's wife or daughter when she's playing the role of damsel in distress. It's almost written in our DNA to follow that impulse, but we have to be very, very cautious when we follow that impulse, because our own unconscious motivators can cause us to do it for the wrong reasons. The most obvious one is the possibility that we might be rescuing out of a hope that said damsel will reward us with her favors if we demonstrate that we're more worthy than whomever it is that is being mean to her or supposedly being mean to her. A less obvious one is that our manly sense of competition has become engaged, but it's generally unwise to try to prove that one is more wonderful than the husband or father (or perhaps even brother) with whom said damsel really should be making more of an effort to communicate, process and create solutions.
 
rockfox said:
'respect for women' Well that explains your concern that women's motives not be questioned. "respecting women" is just another way people get men to obey and worship women.
Click to expand...

That about he source concern..."they claimed that this site was mainly a bunch of men who have little to no respect for women."

Having read this thread, and the OP's source concern, I was clued in and noticed 'respect' for women really features heavily in propaganda these days. To not respect them is equated with domestic violence. Boys are taught to 'respect girls' so as not to challenge their authority or call them on their emotional/verbal manipulations. This is women demanding the reverence that is actually due men as head. This is flipping the hierarchy. This is treating them as goddesses who can do no wrong.

And it's classic propaganda because who can argue against being nice to women and treating them respectfully. But in practice it comes down to obeying them and believing what they say no matter what. Which is why the OP found digging into the ulterior/unconscious motives of women so offensive.

It's too bad that when they assigned women the reverence due men they didn't also redouble the command to women to love their families; might have helped prevent a few women from destroying their children's lives in divorce.

But there I go 'not respecting women' again by pointing out bad sh!t they do. One mustn't do anything to cast negative aspersions on women, like pointing out God found it necessary we remind all mothers to love their husbands and children. As if they need reminding!
 
Keith Martin said:
I can speak from direct personal experience: @cnystrom is an awesome human being, so I really appreciate his input here. He addressed most of the legs of the stool.

I would just add that, while it is certainly true that only husbands or fathers have authority over women, the converse of that is that -- just as it's inappropriate for men to boss around women who aren't their wives or daughters -- it's also not our place to swoop down as saviors to rescue someone else's wife or daughter when she's playing the role of damsel in distress. It's almost written in our DNA to follow that impulse, but we have to be very, very cautious when we follow that impulse, because our own unconscious motivators can cause us to do it for the wrong reasons. The most obvious one is the possibility that we might be rescuing out of a hope that said damsel will reward us with her favors if we demonstrate that we're more worthy than whomever it is that is being mean to her or supposedly being mean to her. A less obvious one is that our manly sense of competition has become engaged, but it's generally unwise to try to prove that one is more wonderful than the husband or father (or perhaps even brother) with whom said damsel really should be making more of an effort to communicate, process and create solutions.
Click to expand...
https://newsthud.com/watch-aoc-in-front-of-reporters-rep-yoho-called-me-and-i-quote-a-fing-btch/

A clear example of how the damsel in distress double standard works recently played out in US politics. The female, socialist representative from New York was confronted in a brusk manner by a male colleague. He admitted that the confrontation was probably not the most tactful, but had it been another man, we would likely not have heard a word about it. They would have probably taken it inside the cloakroom and engaged in fisticuffs or yelled it out. The female rep then milked the encounter for all she could get. Her 10 minute diatribe (linked in the article) is classic victim hood at its finest.

So, @bluearrow89, we have often found that as some women get more and more comfortable in the forums and begin to engage men in the manner other men engage men, the tables get turned on the men and they are accused of being brutes. To avoid this, many of us refer (married women especially) back to a male authority in their lives or to other women on this forum, lest things get sticky.
 
It's kinda like....if a woman has to tell ya she's a lady....she isn't!

Pretty is as pretty does. Trouble is beauty is only skin deep....but ugly goes clear to the bone!

Fine looking people are sadly sometimes the most self centered egotistical people....and lack a moral compass.
 
Joleneakamama said:
Fine looking people are sadly sometimes the most self centered egotistical people....and lack a moral compass.
Click to expand...

It's simply a truism: those possessing that type of universally-recognized truly astounding beauty very rarely develop astounding character, and the primary reason is that they never have to go to the trouble, because (especially in the case of women) they will always have an excess quantity of suitors.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top