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the transgendered

This may answer no questions, but it is a good foundation for thought. In scripture a man who is missing some parts is described as a eunuch, not a woman. This of course does not answer the opposite question about a woman who has had changes done. However, a woman that has had a mastectomy for cancer or uterine removal is still a woman.
Matt 9:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Also food for thought here, in this scripture notice that there is room for thought on the condition at birth but not a choice at birth.
 
Isabella said:
Jim said:
I know now where you are coming from. My dad always said, don't judge someone until you have walked in their shoes. Guess that's something we all should think about. But as you said, referring to TG, "these are real people", so am I.
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I realise that Jim and I am sorry I was impatient with your lack of knowledge on the subject, I suppose it is presumptuous to suppose that everyone has the same level of exposure to Transgendered people as I have.

A trans woman is a male to female transsexual and a transman, is a female to male. So, if a transman identifies as a gay male, he would, supposing he was in a relationship with a born male, not be considered a homosexual under Biblical laws, similarly a transwoman who identifies as a lesbian (which many do) therefore it depends entirely upon whether you choose to accept a transperson as their adopted gender or their birth gender.

B
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Bel, no problem. I think the Lord has brought you to BF to challenge us all. I don’t know if you have accepted God’s free gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ or not, but I pray for you. Steve, I admit this topic was a bit of a shock to me at first, but now see that it’s something that should be considered. Sometimes it’s good to have our thoughts challenged, even if it’s outside our comfort zone. I admit that I’m a little confused by this TG stuff, but I do know a little about the struggles of a homosexual. I had a good male friend back in my teen years that was gay and not happy. My wife also had a good female friend in school that was gay and had a lot of problems. My friend struggled; he even tried dating women, though he wasn’t attracted to them, thinking things could work. Then later, after his father found out about him being gay, he was disowned by him. My wife’s friend went through similar things. It seems that they struggle with their sexual identities. Is it biological? Is it something to do with their upbringing? Nobody knows. But we do know that since the beginning, degeneration has had an effect on the human gene. Maybe birth defects can affect one’s sexual orientation. Bel, are you saying that Tran’s gendered people are not homosexual? It seems to me that if a person is born male, and is only attracted to males, he is gay in spite of any surgery. But If I understand you correctly, you believe that a person can be born the wrong sex, therefore if they were to marry someone of the same gender, as the one they were mistakenly born, it would not be homosexuality.
 
Jim said:
Bel, are you saying that Tran’s gendered people are not homosexual?
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Some consider themselves gay and some don't. it is a bit confusing because the ones who identify as gay would be the ones that people who refuse to accept transition of gender would consider heterosexual and the ones who now identify as heterosexual would be the ones who many would consider gay! :shock:

B
:)
 
Here are questions that get to the underlying issue. 1. Can there be birth defects that affect one's sexual orientation? 2. Are there birth defects that can affect one's judgment later in life? 3. Does God hold one accountable for their actions when there are birth defects? We know that homsexuality is clearly wrong from scripture. But if someone was in fact born with some type of gender defect, that later affected their sexual orientation within a relationship, would it then be considered homosexual? If we can't answer the first question, but know that we're accountable for what we do know, do we participate in such a relationship?
 
I kind of resent the comment about the "cultural mindset" of "monogamy only" being a similar one to the one that makes us "closed minded" and "unnacepting" of transgendered people. I understand about doctors mutilating babies with birth defects (and perfect babies also) wrongly and those babies growing up being treated as the wrong gender all their lives and the destruction that can bring. See David Reimer story: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=i ... US407US408

Interestingly the "psychologist" who tried to convince David that he could be a girl just easily as he could be a boy had a cultural marxist type philosophy and beleived that what you were was based more on nurture than on nature. He set out to use David to prove this point. Anyway I beleive this situation has nothing to do with plural marriage (except maybe that God gives different men the capacity and gift to be able to handle plural wives and He gives some women tha capacity to handle being a plural wife wereas others-the majority-are better suited by their gifts to be in monogamy). God knows about your medical/genetic challenges before you are born, right? The pot does not say to the potter "Why did you make me thus??" So John Doe can't say "I really want to be a lady with all my heart" though he may have had hormonal exposures in the womb that predispose him to have effeminate leanings and/or same sex attraction/preference. There is some evidence to show that the parts of the brain controlling "masculinity and sexual preference are two different ones (somewhat related) and they develop at different points during gestation. So you can have a manly man who likes guys and an ultra feminine guy who likes women alot. Another man may have had inherited his father's short temper/alchohol prediliction. I apparently inherited my father's moodiness and argumentativeness as well as his eye color, dimple, forehead etc. even though I didn't grow up with him and only met him on occasion. I have had to do the right things despite my mood, I've had to pick my battles and not fight over every little thing. There was no social pressure for society to accept my genetic weaknesses, was there? Why are mine less serious? My cousin was gay (and my very best friend on the planet) and besides suffered from SEVERE depression from having been rejected by his irresponsible father and mother as a little child just because they were deadbeats. He chose suicide at 22. He was the SMARTEST, FUNNIEST person I ever met in my life. Yet he chose to succumb to his genetic and environmental disadvantages. He did have the attitude of "why did you make me thus? and Why did you allow this to happen, God?" Therefore he rejected God and chose rebellion.

The point is there is an agenda here to make these people's weaknesses more palatable. I have lost friendships due to my hardheadedness. Even after I repented and was born again I had lost those friends. Yes "alcholism" may be a disease. So is my moodiness. So is this gender dismorphic disorder or whatever. What do you do with the repentant born again alchoholic with end stage liver failure??? What do you do with the mutilated "transgender"? Your guess is as good as mine but they can't go back to being whole again, can they? You can call it a disease but It doesn't make it right to indulge in homosexuality and try to alter ones body unnecesarily. It is progressive revelation to say that God in the latter days revealed monogamy only to be the only right way for biblical marriage. It is progressive revelation also to say "well God has shown us through the good doctors that some guys just need surgery so they can "feel" right." After they have gone through surgery they need to deal with the consequences now even if they repented and are christians. Cultural marxism tries to pretend everyone should be treated the same no matter their gender, past, etc. Just like economic marxism tried to make everyone the same as far as their economic station. Some vessels are made for honor and some for dishonor. Some disfigurements are for the glory of God. I have wanted to be a man sometimes-when it has seemed expedient.(Well maybe only when I thought there was a robber at the door!) Where was my insurance coverage??? I have also felt I was born into the wrong family sometimes. So should there be a doctor for me? I'm sure there is one-I can kvetch at $100 an hour or I can get over my inherent weakness and overcome!! He that overcomes, overcomes in the name of the Lord!!! I am saying God is silent on this issue somewhat (except for the eunuch verses) but what would Jesus say if someone was so uncontent as to demand MAJOR surgery and lifelong drugs because their sex-something God decides-is so abhorrent to them. I hope he wouldn't say it was right for Obama care and the NHS to pay for it!!! If not then only rich transexuals could be "fulfilled"! I would hope that repentent transexuals repudiate their mutilation as well as their homosexuality. I have gone off on tangents I just think the culture of entitlement is growing like an unchecked cancer!!!
 
Physiological studies seems to suggest that there is case at times for molecular issues here. In other words, since sin radically corrupts the entire person, which includes both body and spirit, a person could indeed come forth from the womb corrupted in physical desires due to physical taint from the power of sin. There are others, however, who due to some terrible experience with the opposite gender, like with their mother or father, they move towards a homosexual lifestyle by choice and not because of some physiological disorder.

In some cases people are born deformed and medical staff has to help determine what is the primary trait of the person and thus work to move that person towards one gender or the other.

None of this is an easy issue or a one size fits all equation. These things vary depending upon the person's unique situation and issue surrounding it.
 
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
Physiological studies seems to suggest that there is case at times for molecular issues here. In other words, since sin radically corrupts the entire person, which includes both body and spirit, a person could indeed come forth from the womb corrupted in physical desires due to physical taint from the power of sin. There are others, however, who due to some terrible experience with the opposite gender, like with their mother or father, they move towards a homosexual lifestyle by choice and not because of some physiological disorder.

In some cases people are born deformed and medical staff has to help determine what is the primary trait of the person and thus work to move that person towards one gender or the other.

None of this is an easy issue or a one size fits all equation. These things vary depending upon the person's unique situation and issue surrounding it.
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Yes
 
Itainteasy,
Very good presentation on responsibly dealing with the issues of life that are adverse. My thoughts on reading this thread are that it would be very difficult, indeed to have this problem, but we are talking about a situation that is microscopic at best in the overall population size. We are not enabled by God to have a distinct rule on how to handle each specific situation, EXCEPT to love one another. I like Doc's example and recommend that each one who encounters someone going through TG problems or homosexual problems, treat them as Christ Jesus does each of us, on an individual basis and as they relate to God. From my "for what it's worth file." :)
 
Maria,

I think your post was very thoughtful and accurate. When people make decisions that have consequences, they they have to live with the consequences, good and bad. I appreciate your ability to bring up the things that are hard for you to do of your own will and your desire to conquer them through Christ, not just expect someone to slap a medical label on it and give you a reason not to change.

Not everyone will have the same "perfect" life experience...spouse, kids, nice house, accepting family, etc. Some of us will have no spouse, or no kids, or come from a destructive family. If we make having a "traditional" marriage the utmost goal in life, we're totally missing what life is all about.

It's all about bringing glory to our Heavenly Father, and if that means being a "eunuch", or being married, or widowed or whatever, then do it to the best of your ability, because He is worthy of our best!
 
Maria & Katie, I know I have met your very blessed husband and now I understand better why! You ladies ROCK!!!
 
If there is anyone out there who read this thread and knows that the burden of celibacy is too much then please don't be hurt by the callous words of some of these people. Please know that you are loved and that the only requirement for your salvation is faith in Yeshua. There are loving and faithful followers of Christ who do not lay burdens upon your shoulders that they themselves could not carry. You are loved.
 
My first thought was that our bodies are the temple of the holy Spirit, and any intentional mutilation (disfigurement) of it is sinful.

My next thought was that when we sin (saved or not) there are consequences for our sin.

Someone that has deliberately mutilated themselves and then later becomes saved is forgiven for their sin, but that does not mean that they will be free from the consequences of that decision. They made the choice to mutilate themselves (were made eunuchs - presumably by a doctor) the consequence of which is to live as a eunuch.

Sometimes we forget (or try to forget) that sins have consequences and then try to pretty up our sins to avoid the consequences...but that does not change the situation. To deny the consequences would likely only cause further sinful behavior.
 
DocInMO said:
Hey all,

Sorry I am late to the thread, but it has been a busy week for me!

I can speak from experience on this topic, as I once had a repentant transgendered individual in the church I started in Topeka. This individual had once been a man, but had all the operations and hormonal treatments to be a woman.

David/Danielle visited our church and wanted to be involved in the music. This individual was quite talented on the keyboard, and seemed to truly love the Lord.

I wrestled with myself as to 'what' David/Danielle was, and I eventually concluded that a choice had been made, and now he/she had to live with the consequences.

As to participation in the ministry of the church, Danielle proved to be a loyal, talented member of our volunteer staff. She chose to remain celibate, having repented of her choice, yet also chose to identify as a woman. At that point, there was no way she could appear otherwise...she was by all appearances a woman.

I took some heat from other pastors who knew of Danielle, and who had basically shunned her from their congregation. I didn't mind....I felt that I was doing what Jesus would do.

And that's all I know about frogs.

Doc
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Good decision!
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... terus.html

Indian man has hysterectomy after doctors find uterus

The Indian man, identified as Ryalu, was admitted to a hospital near Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh, after complaining of severe stomach pains.

Doctors suspected a normal hernia, but when they carried out an exploratory operation they were shocked to discover it had been caused by a female uterus, ovaries, Fallopian tubes, a cervix and underdeveloped vaginal tissue.

Dr Pramod Kumar Shrivastava, a surgeon at the Chhindwara district hospital said the patient had external male organs, was fit from working in the fields, and lived a normal life.

"Usually the contents of the Hernia Sac are abdomen organs like large intestines and small intestines but when we operated on the patient we were surprised to find female reproductive organs. We have removed the organs through a hysterectomy and repaired the hernia.

"The sac contained quite developed uterus, both the ovaries, Fallopian tubes, cervix and a tissue which is undeveloped but apparently looks like vaginal tissue," he explained.
 
Amazing story, Doc.

The best way for me to be able to process information like that is to put away my own expectations for how life "should" go, and realize that God has much better plans for every one of us than we have for ourselves.

I don't want to be celibate, but if Robert died, that's what I would be unless God chose to bring along a man that I thought I should marry. If that man never came along, then I would have to be celibate, and I had better be rejoicing in that situation, because it would be right where God wanted me to be.

There's nothing mean or callous about encouraging someone to find contentment in Christ.

Katie
 
sola scriptura said:
I had better be rejoicing in that situation, because it would be right where God wanted me to be.

There's nothing mean or callous about encouraging someone to find contentment in Christ.

Katie
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Passive contentment is all well and good if that is what you choose, rather than it being imposed by others.

B
 
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
None of this is an easy issue or a one size fits all equation. These things vary depending upon the person's unique situation and issue surrounding it.
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i think that this a a key phrase for this discussion, and as another scholar put it on another thread; "We need to pray more for the gift of discernment."
 
Wow...great testimony...made my eyes water up!
 
itainteasy said:
I came across this video when I was looking at AP news videos about this bill that passed in Cali to make Gay history required in public school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgj9cbgl ... re=related
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What a great testimony, it appears that some can change. My heart goes out to all those with sexual idenity problems. After recently watching the documentry "For The Bible Tells Me So", I really believe homosexuality CAN be a genetic issue. What really opened my eyes after watching the documentry, was the way some Churchs were condemning homosexuals, and for something that they may have been born with. I wonder if those same preachers would do the same thing to those born with other problems. I know there are two sides of the issue, one being that homosexuality is a choice, and the other, homosexuality is genetic. But the Bible states that homosexuality is wrong. Does God hold one accountable for every action, even if one's born with a genetic problem that effects their abilities in some way?
 
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