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the transgendered

steve

steve

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
back in the olden days (a good 10+ yrs ago) when we were living in seatle there was a couple who became friends of friends. we met them, but soon left for mexico and consequently did not get to know them very well.

they had both (independantly, i do not think that they knew each other at that time) been in the homosexual lifestyle and had each felt that they were living in a body that did not represent who they were so they chose to medically change their bodies to the opposite sex. he to a "she" and she to a "he".
fast forward a period of time (i know not how much time) and they both became aware that they were not right with their Creator. they repented and accepted Yeshua's sacrifice on the cross for their salvation.
the problem then became how to live a life that honoured their Creator. celibacy was the first step, but it was a lonely existance. any honesty at all caused new-found friends to flee. at some point they found each other and became each others "family" in loving acceptance. they looked like a normal couple to outsiders.
it is my understanding that because of the medical demands that they had placed upon their bodies their health has failed and they have passed into the hands of our Lord.

the reason that i bring this up is that we have in our nation a group of people who have nowhere to go if they accept Yeshua as their saviour and want to live in a family that loves YHWH. any "marriage" would be an abberation. finding an opposite partner, as the couple that i have described did, would be almost impossible.
here is the question:
is polygyny only about us, or about those who need us?
can we patriarchs provide a (non-sexual) family to those who were born as our same gender but now look more like our wives?
can we provide that loving, protective, permanent relationship that they need?
 
Steve,

You had to ask the hard question!

IMHO, that would be a matter of conscience for each individual patriarch. But something to take into consideration: what effect would that have on the "real" women that God has gifted into your care? My Navajo Princess is a very precious gift that my Heavenly Father has entrusted to me, and I want to treat her accordingly. If you don't think of your first woman in much the same way, you shouldn't consider having a second woman, not even a "real" one.

To the best of my knowledge, the Bible does not have one word to say about the specific sin of mutilating one's body because of being "trapped in a body of the opposite sex." (IMHO, most of the garbage like that is nothing but "bravo sierra" in an attempt to justify a sinful lifestyle, and nearly always has no medical basis whatsoever.) Under the OC, a homosexual was simply stoned to death - not an option in our society! And the Bible does not speak directly to how, specifically, a person who has done that should live after being born again, other than the general Christian principles. Which includes the commandment to love one another - all believers, not just those brothers and sisters who did not mutilate their bodies before being born again.

The best we can do is find Scripture that speaks to similar situations. For instance, homosexuality is an abomination - but is a transgendered person really now a person of the opposite sex? Genetically, no. Just ask that tennis player from a few decades ago... And there are prohibitions in the OC about a man whose genitals are defective or missing (presumably because of birth defect or injury since they didn't have "sex-change" clinics...) not being allowed to work in the office of a priest.

So what to do with a transgendered person who gets saved? I don't know. But maybe we better figure it out, since homosexuality, including such abominations as this one, seems to be becoming mainstream in our pagan culture now. Jesus died for the transgendered just as much as He died for you and me, and we need to reach out to all sinners with the Gospel message, not just the ones whose sins we think are less repulsive.

Please do not twist what I have written to be any kind of acceptance of any kind of homosexual lifestyle. That is an abomination to God, and so is an abomination to His children, including me.

Dr. Allen, Doc Burkhart, Nathan, others - any thoughts?
 
Please do not twist what I have written to be any kind of acceptance of any kind of homosexual lifestyle. That is an abomination to God, and so is an abomination to His children, including me.
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as, of course, it is to me.
but it is washed in the blood and burried in the deepest sea after they have been repentant and born again, so it has no presence in this discussion.
please do not cloud the issue and profane the thread by re-introducing what has been forgiven by the Almighty.
 
But something to take into consideration: what effect would that have on the "real" women that God has gifted into your care? My Navajo Princess is a very precious gift that my Heavenly Father has entrusted to me, and I want to treat her accordingly. If you don't think of your first woman in much the same way, you shouldn't consider having a second woman, not even a "real" one.
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what on earth are you implying here?
it has an extremely offensive smell.
 
steve said:
But something to take into consideration: what effect would that have on the "real" women that God has gifted into your care? My Navajo Princess is a very precious gift that my Heavenly Father has entrusted to me, and I want to treat her accordingly. If you don't think of your first woman in much the same way, you shouldn't consider having a second woman, not even a "real" one.
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what on earth are you implying here?
it has an extremely offensive smell.
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What is smelly about it??? He is saying what lots of men say on here-love your first with all your heart first! I think it's funny polydoc mentions his wife's tribe! Can my hubby call me his white mediterranian princess or can he call first wife redneck/midwestern white(with a little cherokee back there somewhere maybe) princess!!! hahahahahaha :lol:
 
What is smelly about it??? He is saying what lots of men say on here-love your first with all your heart first!
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maybe your assumption is correct, maybe it is not. but it will remain an assumption until marvin explains why he chose to warn me in this way.

i am not making an assumption, i am asking an easily explained question that only marvin can answer.
 
itainteasy said:
ok I totally understand Steve! It's a guy thing!
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please understand that if i am sensing an implication that does not exist, all that i am looking for is a reasurance from him that he meant no such implication.
until then i have to wonder, but will not jump to any conclusions.

but what are your feelings on the original post? that is the important question.
 
What about hermorphodtism? We had a newborn that had external genitilia of both male and female. They did a sonagram to see if there was a uterus.
In earlier years, the medical society would arbitrally select one, most of the time not telling the parents. dd
 
itainteasy said:
What is smelly about it??? He is saying what lots of men say on here-love your first with all your heart first! I think it's funny polydoc mentions his wife's tribe! Can my hubby call me his white mediterranian princess or can he call first wife redneck/midwestern white(with a little cherokee back there somewhere maybe) princess!!! hahahahahaha :lol:
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Redneck!?!?!?!? My mother's genteel North-Carolinian family would die a thousand deaths before accepting the moniker "redneck" :o

How bout...southerner :)
 
On a more serious note, I would say that the verse below could give a little bit of insight into the proper way to treat the trans-gendered.

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]. Matthew 19:12
 
mo.nurse said:
What about hermorphodtism? We had a newborn that had external genitilia of both male and female. They did a sonagram to see if there was a uterus.
In earlier years, the medical society would arbitrally select one, most of the time not telling the parents. dd
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there are various forms of what is now called "intersex". some in which the chromosomes are for both sexes.
consideration of their needs would be a good thing as a normal marriage relationship may not be possible for some of them.
 
The thing is there are many different kinds of people who are Trans, some are intersex, some have brain or chromosomal indicators and some have a very strong psychological belief that they are not either gender. Point is, we don't always know what has caused it, so saying that there is no basis for it (or some such) is just ignorant.

I would have no problems being the sisterwife of a transwoman, I feel that Poly family relationships are probably one of the few ways a transwoman would get the opportunity to raise children as a woman seeing the prejudice in society which would make it difficult for a transwoman to adopt or even be in a relationship with a man who wants an ordinary family life. Many t/women are treated as little more than sex objects by bad men because of prejudice.

B
 
Why do we run so fast to divide people into 'us and them'? I prefer to deal with folks where they are when I meet them. People change over time, and just like they say in culinary school, "The carrots you cook today aren't the carrots you'll cook tomorrow'.

I find a lot of time, the 'professing Christians' are the harshest and most judgemental people I come into contact with. It's sad to me.
 
Steve,

You asked about the possibility of taking a transgendered individual into one's family in a non-sexual relationship. You did not specify man->woman or woman->man for the individual being taken in as part of the family.

The way you asked the question, I got the idea that you meant take as another "wife" (in a covenant relationship) but with no sex involved. Please correct me if I misunderstood.

A man who has a transgender operation is still a man, regardless of whatever changes modern medical science can make to his plumbing. Likewise for a woman who has a transgender operation; she is still a woman. (Just check their DNA to see that this is true.)

I could never take another man into my family in any such covenant relationship, even if it is understood that there would be no sexual behavior at all. And neither could I enter into a covenant relationship with a woman->man TG.

Fellowship? yes.
Invite them to participate in family activities? yes.
Possibly even invite the person to go on our family vacation with us? yes.
Covenant relationship? NO.

A normal covenant relationship is between a man and a woman, and implies a sexual relationship - and since a woman->man TG no longer has the right plumbing, that is not possible. Entering into a covenant relationship with a man->woman TG would amount to covenantal homosexuality, even if there is no sexual activity of any kind in the relationship.

The circumstances under which I would welcome a TG'd person into close fellowship with my family are the same circumstances that would apply to any other born-again person whose sins have been covered by the blood of the Lamb, and who we might be considering inviting into close fellowship. What they did before salvation is not a consideration, but the life they live after being born again is. My best friends outside of my BF brothers and sisters and a few other real Christians are some men and women, many of whom have spent time in state and federal prison (most were saved while incarcerated) for horrible crimes - dealing drugs was the least of their sins, if a scale can be applied to sinfulness. One is a former gang-banger, not the type of guy you would want to meet in an alley at night before he was born again. He just married a beautiful lady who was also involved in drug dealing and the violence that always accompanies that type of activity, but is now a beautiful Christian, leading others to the Lord. Another was convicted of statutory rape. Most were alcoholics and/or drug addicts. But they are now among the strongest Christians I know, and I would rather have fellowship with them than with any of those Sunday-only "christians" we find in every church.

In God's eyes, sin is sin, and telling a so-called "white lie" is no less sinful than living a homosexual lifestyle or robbing a bank. Any sin separates us from God. But for we who have been born again, all sins are covered by the Blood. And even though the sins are covered by the Blood, often, the scars resulting from those sins remain. One of those scars for our TG'd brothers and sisters is, of course, the mutilation that modern medical science did to their bodies. In most cases, those scars will preclude any "normal" sexual relations.

But they are still my brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Before reading your post, Steve, I had not given any thought at all to this particular problem. So if some things I said are a little bit incoherent, please allow me time to ponder this and clarify my own thoughts.

One thing for sure - we need to find a way to minister to the transgendered individuals who get saved. Here is one possible idea, sparked by what you said concerning the couple you knew in Seattle: find a way for the transgendered to have families that consist of only transgendered people. How to do that? I don't know. But we, as a community of born-again believers, need to find ways to minister effectively to all new Christians regardless of what they were saved out of.

And if we find some way for our TG'd-but-now-born-again brothers and sisters to form families that will be pleasing to God, we must include those families in our fellowship.

But more importantly, we need to include them as individuals in our fellowship now, even before we find other ways to minister to them.
 
donnag wrote:
I find a lot of time, the 'professing Christians' are the harshest and most judgemental people I come into contact with. It's sad to me.
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Sad, but true.

Those former anti-social dopers, gang-bangers, etc., that I talked about in the previous post are among the least judgmental Christians I have ever met. At one time, I was one of the most judgmental...then I got really saved, and God started changing me. I'm still a work in progress. :D
 
A man who has a transgender operation is still a man, regardless of whatever changes modern medical science can make to his plumbing. Likewise for a woman who has a transgender operation; she is still a woman. (Just check their DNA to see that this is true.)
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True. On a talk show, there was a married "female"couple being interviewed. One of them was TG into a male, and the other one I believe through artificial insemination (sperm donor) gave birth. The TG woman dressed as a man referred to this child as it was his biological child several times, to the point that I think he really believed it. How twisted and perverted. I don't care what medicine can do, they will never be the opposite sex. Also, how could someone enter into a non-sexual relations marriage covenant anyway? Is not copulation part of that which creates the union? That type of union sounds like the Mormon doctrine of being sealed together, which can exclude any sexual relations.
 
Jim wrote:
Also, how could someone enter into a non-sexual relations marriage covenant anyway? Is not copulation part of that which creates the union? That type of union sounds like the Mormon doctrine of being sealed together, which can exclude any sexual relations.
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I know almost nothing about Mormon doctrine that you mentioned.

But remember, God compares His covenants with His two women, Israel and Judah, as Covenant Unions (what the uninformed would call "marriage covenants") and it is doubtful that any copulation took place. (I said "doubtful," because maybe some aspect of God's relationship with His two women might be compared, metaphorically, to sexual intercourse. But if that is so, I don't know what it would be.)

When I asked my lovely Navajo princess what she thought of Steve's question, she pretty much told me what I wrote about it in that long post a few posts prior to this one! (Not every detail, of course, but the gist of what I wrote.) She is pretty sharp (both pretty and sharp!), and a few times, she has convinced me from Scripture that I was wrong about something or other...she is a real "help meet" (to use the KJV verbiage) to me. :D I need to talk her into joining the forum...
 
marvin,
no one is trying to talk you into anything, so relax. ;) the word covenant means an agreement. do not super-spiritualize it into the (non-sexual) sexual relationship that you are visualizing. i know that that is oxy-moronic, but you came up with it. :D

just as fewer than 1 marriage in 100 (my generous guess, it is probably closer to 1 in 10,000) can handle polygyny in a manner that blesses YHWH, probably fewer than 1 in 1,000 of those marriages could handle what i am talking about. it would take very direct leading of the Lord and an unusually high commitment to following Him to walk it out.
lets just consider the prospect and count the cost, and then if a family does successfully walk this out with the help of the Lord we can stand in awe. :shock:

i am just putting it on the table that it is possible. lets not continue to make bibfam a dangerous place for any opinion that we may not agree with.
so you and your wife agree on this issue, that's great, operate your household in that agreement. i get it that you are not called to this. do not attempt to make policy for everyone else based upon your opinion.

And if we find some way for our TG'd-but-now-born-again brothers and sisters to form families that will be pleasing to God, we must include those families in our fellowship.
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maybe we could find them an island..............
(yes, that was sarcasm)

i love you, brother, but sometimes you hide that sweet man that i met at the conference all too well. :)
 
sola scriptura said:
On a more serious note, I would say that the verse below could give a little bit of insight into the proper way to treat the trans-gendered.

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]. Matthew 19:12
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i am probably being a little slow here, but it seems to me that all that this verse would give us is a label for them. i do not really see much instruction about how to treat them.
is there something that i am missing?
 
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