The Light of Lucifer on Divorce

[steve]

Because there is no debt without credit.

Unless you are talking about token amount, credit is returned through time with multiple "giving money to creditor" events.

IF the father chose to accept payments, he would be being generously stupid.
How long would it take to pay off what a young man could make in 2.5 years? If he gave every cent that he made, 2.5 years would be gone without being able to buy a lachet for his sandals. Why trust someone who is already a thief to honor that?

 

[MemeFan]

Yep, my understanding is about 2.5-3 years wages for a laborer.
Quite an incentive for keeping it in your pants… er, robe.

Looks cheap if you ask me.

As wife, she can work so she is income producing asset. Besides, also household income will rise due to expanding division of labor. So any debt can be solved in about 5-7 years.

Besides, not like father is having much choice. Daughter isn't virgin, so potential bride price will go down in stock market during depression plus she is unmarriageble for at about 6 months since they didn't have pregnancy tests. If daughter gets pregnant her bride price will get another crash.

So something else must be reason for this order.

Well, NAP doesn't allow contracts where change of mind isn't allowed. In another word, current you now can't forbid future you to exit contract. What it allows is forcing future you to pay some amount of money to break contract.

I think this functions more like penalty for contract breaking because only in this case now wife won't earn her bride price.

Btw, bride price can be considered as capital investment which means, financially and economically looking, her bride is net present value of consumption of her (her usage by future husband). Here good analogy is housing. You pay either monthly as rent which comes as pure consumption or you buy whole house in one payment (net present value).

 

[MemeFan]

IF the father chose to accept payments, he would be being generously stupid.
How long would it take to pay off what a young man could make in 2.5 years? If he gave every cent that he made, 2.5 years would be gone without being able to buy a lachet for his sandals. Why trust someone who is already a thief to honor that?

Because paying bride price on credit would be custom. Maybe not whole, with some percentage payed on first payable event. Like 20% now, 80% on credit.

Fact is that even ancient economies run on debt, so debt here wouldn't be strange.

Besides, how did rest of population payed bride price? Only ones who could afford to pay 3 years of workers income would be very rich men. Emphasis, very rich, since most rich men income would finish in their business.

So unless only type of marriage in ancient Israel were harems with 95% unmarried men (idiotic idea), then most middle class and rich men had to find way to afford wife. Include in married men at least some of poor people which also had to be able to afford bride price.

 

[steve]

Looks cheap if you ask me.

I’m sure that Jacob would have agreed, his cost him 7 years per.
But that is what happens when you don’t bring cash to the table.

 

[Mark C]

Romans 1:1
This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.

I find the rendering as 'bondservant' to be much closer to the proper translation.

The difference is akin to what Scripture described instead as "cruel bondage," as opposed to His rules.

 

[MemeFan]

I’m sure that Jacob would have agreed, his cost him 7 years per.
But that is what happens when you don’t bring cash to the table.

No, that what happens when you don't negotiate and don't even try to hide you liking some girl. Price goes up.

Laban easily figures Jacob would pay extra gladly.

 

[steve]

No, that what happens when you don't negotiate and don't even try to hide you liking some girl. Price goes up.

Laban easily figures Jacob would pay extra gladly.

If you don’t have cash, you don’t have any strength to your negotiating position.

This is getting silly.

 

[MemeFan]

If you don’t have cash, you don’t have any strength to your negotiating position.

This is getting silly.

Maybe you can barter something some valuable than cash.

In close to famine like situation food would be more important than cash. In ancient society farming capital equipment like plows would be very valuable.

 

[steve]

Maybe you can barter something some valuable than cash.

In close to famine like situation food would be more important than cash. In ancient society farming capital equipment like plows would be very valuable.

Dude, you’ve wandered so far out of the conversation that I can’t find you with my binoculars.

 

[OttoM]

Maybe you can barter something some valuable than cash.

In close to famine like situation food would be more important than cash. In ancient society farming capital equipment like plows would be very valuable.

You’re talking about hypotheticals for a commandment that even most of Christianity would consider to be backwards. How much more the woke crowd? Having an only fans is more acceptable than a bride price for virgins.

 

[PastorLarry]

You said, "today... virgins give it away like Esau gave his birthright for some soup." I find that very insightful. When we think of all that Esau lost by that one act, we should think of what these girls lose by that one act. Even worse yet, in my view are those men who do this to these girls. I am thankful that even before I knew Jesus Christ as my Savior, I had a father who taught me right from wrong. I don't think that, now that I know the seriousness of such an act, I could even live with myself. What a terrible burden that would be, to know of what you took from that girl, and all for a moment's pleasure. That THEY don't know or don't care what that act does, in no way alleviates the sin. Some day it may matter to them. And when it does... (fill in the blank)

 

[MemeFan]

You’re talking about hypotheticals for a commandment that even most of Christianity would consider to be backwards. How much more the woke crowd? Having an only fans is more acceptable than a bride price for virgins.

No, this is about negotiations.

You and @steve assume that father has all cards and can kick down young man. It ain't so simple.

Besides, bride price can be in anything. Command doesn't say it must only be in money, so young man can offer anything of equivalent value.

 

[steve]

You and @steve assume that father has all cards and can kick down young man. It ain't so simple.

It’s completely simple.
The father has the corner on the market.
For every daughter that he has, there are literally dozens of suitors who would want her.
There are no other cards.

 

[The Revolting Man]

You’re talking about hypotheticals for a commandment that even most of Christianity would consider to be backwards. How much more the woke crowd? Having an only fans is more acceptable than a bride price for virgins.

What commandment?

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

No, this is about negotiations.

You and @steve assume that father has all cards and can kick down young man. It ain't so simple.

Besides, bride price can be in anything. Command doesn't say it must only be in money, so young man can offer anything of equivalent value.

looks to me like it is a set amount.

Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

 

[The Revolting Man]

looks to me like it is a set amount.

Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Well that ain’t gonna cut it, I got more than that in the feed.

 

[MemeFan]

It’s completely simple.
The father has the corner on the market.
For every daughter that he has, there are literally dozens of suitors who would want her.
There are no other cards.

Not in this case. She isn't virgin already. He has "damaged goods" plus there is already guy who likes that "damaged good" enough to avoid usual social custom.

Any other suitor need to consider reaction of young man. Eternal hatred and possible death by him for stealing "his wife" from young man.

Why are you interested in getting most money for daughter? I thought father should be most interested in welfare of daughter.

Also simping isn't good idea usually, in this situation it is. See how much I like your daughter.

 

[MemeFan]

looks to me like it is a set amount.

Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

What is forbidding this:

I would do sowing instead you this year. We will value this as 10 shekels.

In worst case there will be 2 step process. First formal 50 shekels fine, then replacement with equivalent value.

Besides, I don't think Lord isn't "must do correct papyrology" type. He is more intent behind behaviour.

So paying fine in some way would be acceptable.

 

[steve]

Not in this case.

I don’t even know what case you are talking about. You keep wandering all over the landscape with your proclamations.

I’m returning to questioning whether or not you are a bot. You just aren’t making any sense with your statements, and not intellectually responding to the answers to your statements.

 

[MemeFan]

I don’t even know what case you are talking about. You keep wandering all over the landscape with your proclamations.

I’m returning to questioning whether or not you are a bot. You just aren’t making any sense with your statements, and not intellectually responding to the answers to your statements.

LOLOLOLOLOL

You can follow quoted posts till you get back to one starting it all:

I don't mind the word slave - depending on the circumstance. Let's say a thief was caught stealing. If he can't pay back what he stole - he becomes a slave to pay off his debt. Or let's say there is a daughter that has a boyfriend. That boyfriend took her virginity, and simply left. Well that man owes a hefty bride price to her father, since he took her virginity. He can't afford it? Then he becomes her father's slave until that debt is paid off.

And let's not forget - in the new testament writings of the apostles - you'll see them start off their letter's like this:

Romans 1:1
This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.

Slavery was not like what happened in the states a while ago. They are still guaranteed a sabbath day's of rest. Also, it's a limited time-frame and there are further protections:

Exodus 21:27
And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.

Ephesians 6:5-9
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. 6 Try to please them all the time, not just when they are watching you. As slaves of Christ, do the will of God with all your heart. 7Work with enthusiasm, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. 8Remember that the Lord will reward each one of us for the good we do, whether we are slaves or free. 9 Masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Don’t threaten them; remember, you both have the same Master in heaven, and he has no favorites.

That's context.