For a lot of people - including Christians - their standard of righteousness comes from the world and culture.
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Suitor Sorting (Dating Daughters Thread Reference)
- Thread starter BiblicalLiteralist
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A lot of men know more about the fine details of their favorite sports team than what the Word of their Savior actually says. The Word of YAH clearly says that if a man takes a woman's virginity, then he must pursue marriage. Which would mean that the women are being provided and taken care of - instead of being abandoned and losing their their trust in men. So I believe the greater guilt and responsibility is on the men and fathers.
Just going to say that in my experience I've seen several different types of marriage.
I dated/visited/courted and was mostly trying to escape a crappy situation with my mom.
One of my sisters was placed with us.
Another came with a price after the fact.
Yet another married for passion.
And one more because this was the best choice she could make.
I've seen placements in other families. I've also seen bride prices even though not everyone calls it that. Arrangements happen a lot.
Other groups around the US have done similar things and one woman I know from Colorado was outright purchased from her family by her husband to be his plural. Seems to have worked out okay, too.
Clarification: To me an arrangement is mutual where the woman agrees to it. A placement is either not her choice or it's something she has to settle for.
I dated/visited/courted and was mostly trying to escape a crappy situation with my mom.
One of my sisters was placed with us.
Another came with a price after the fact.
Yet another married for passion.
And one more because this was the best choice she could make.
I've seen placements in other families. I've also seen bride prices even though not everyone calls it that. Arrangements happen a lot.
Other groups around the US have done similar things and one woman I know from Colorado was outright purchased from her family by her husband to be his plural. Seems to have worked out okay, too.
Clarification: To me an arrangement is mutual where the woman agrees to it. A placement is either not her choice or it's something she has to settle for.
BiblicalLiteralist
Member
This is precisely why I brought this question up, and made the suggestion of a pool of quality men being presented to the daughter by the father. The idea being the father does the sorting, any man can sign up to qualify, but he is the middle man ultimately qualifying and disqualifying. He should be the first point of contact, and do the initial vetting, instead of the current opposite where the daughter does the initial vetting and then presents to the father. This would also help with unnecessary attachments before they begin.
This is why I included the option of an arrangement, because which situation is worse? A woman going astray and being a harlot or not having a say in her choice of husband?
Explain it to the judge.
Because an "arrangement" sounds too much like daddy pimping her out....ESPECIALLY if she didn't like his "arrangement."
...or slavery if the "husband" now claims she belongs to him.
I’m sorry but you don’t live in a world where a woman doesn’t get a say in who her husband is. You can quote scripture at the SWAT team for the entirety of the raid, they are still going to shoot your dog and take that woman out of there and lock you in a cage for the rest of your productive life.
And who in their right mind wants a wife who doesn’t want to be there?
There is choice and free will. In order to fulfill righteousness, then whomever becomes her husband needs to be first approved by her father. The father can give his daughter an approved selection of men that he has vetted, and then she can choose herself. If she doesn’t like any of them, then she can choose to remain single (and virgin) until the right man shows up.
But this current system is absolutely broken, and wicked. Why? Because one of the two things usually happens:
1. She doesn’t get her father’s approval first. She goes into marriage with someone her father didn’t approve of. Then she files a divorce.
2. She doesn’t get her father’s approval first. She starts dating. She gives her virginity to a boyfriend, and he dumps her. She then starts accumulating a body count.
But this current system is absolutely broken, and wicked. Why? Because one of the two things usually happens:
1. She doesn’t get her father’s approval first. She goes into marriage with someone her father didn’t approve of. Then she files a divorce.
2. She doesn’t get her father’s approval first. She starts dating. She gives her virginity to a boyfriend, and he dumps her. She then starts accumulating a body count.
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Where I live, I've NEVER seen a church assembly with equal numbers of males and females. The assembly I'm most frequently involved with would have at least double, and possibly triple, the number of single females. Reality makes life a lot different than pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by dreams. Please understand, I'm not advocating for women to be irresponsible. But life is lived in the real world.
Precisely my thought when years ago someone argued the church needed covenant marriages that the state could enforce.
I remember thinking....what makes marriage beautiful is that both people want to be with each other.
There are screwed up people....in their "wrong mind" ...but when they act on their thoughts we put them in cages.
And when the father isn't righteous, what then?
And I agree with the concept.... but I would just say community. YHWH put the responsibility on EVERY MAN to see that justice and judgment happen on a local level. The trouble with churches is the same as with governments. YHWH did not give the job of law enforcement to a group of paid officers and He did not give any authority to a church that he didn't give to each individual. ...but they like to overstep and claim authority....while neglecting responsibilities.
You're dodging my question.
Let me put it to you this way:
You want to give fathers the authority to determine who their daughters can marry.
What happens when the father is an apostate, the daughter is a Christian, and the father wants to give her away to a Muslim?
Are you proposing that this arrangement must be honored? Because he's her father?
Then someone in some random church who believes himself to be righteous can arbitrarily appoint himself to be some girl's guardian and then do what?
I mean aside from spending the next decade or so in prison.
My broader point is these were rules for an age in which men were right simply by nature of being men. Those days are long behind us and are unlikely to recur in our lifetimes.
There is also an element of compulsion or force that will necessarily occur under these rules and the simple fact is that anyone forcing their adult daughter to marry or not marry someone is going to face an acute disagreement with the authorities.
That said, the question before us is how do we navigate the world we live in while trying to protect our children from that same world?
I suggest we each start by being examples to our children so they will be equipped to make the best choices on their own.
I suggest that we live our lives as such examples that our children seek our advice, counsel, guidance and approval.Then someone in some random church who believes himself to be righteous can arbitrarily appoint himself to be some girl's guardian and then do what?
I mean aside from spending the next decade or so in prison.
My broader point is these were rules for an age in which men were right simply by nature of being men. Those days are long behind us and are unlikely to recur in our lifetimes.
There is also an element of compulsion or force that will necessarily occur under these rules and the simple fact is that anyone forcing their adult daughter to marry or not marry someone is going to face an acute disagreement with the authorities.
That said, the question before us is how do we navigate the world we live in while trying to protect our children from that same world?
I suggest we each start by being examples to our children so they will be equipped to make the best choices on their own.
You are right that fathers can be corrupt but we cannot then throw out order because some violate their daughters trust.
Sometimes... Life has sucky parts that we have to trust God will deal with in time. Not everyone will be blessed with a headship that is walking uprightly. We should not then grant the government authority over our children because we cannot trust every single person.
I have seen your posts Megan so I know this hits close to home. I am sensitive to your feelings on this matter and hope that is coming through....
In ancient Israel if a man didn't take care of his own he would be cut off....kicked out of society. His wife would be as a widow. ..his daughters no longer under him. Same story if he violated the boundaries YHWH set.
It wasn't so much that being men made them right....but like it used to be in early America, a wise and MORAL society guards it's morality.
Ted Weiland did a sermon about how Israel set out to DESTROY a tribe who build an altar. They were that zealous in defending against idolatry. They found it not required...thankfully, but there are many stories showing us the diligence of the people in protecting their land.