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Revering Makes Submitting Successful

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sola scriptura said:
Excellent synopsis, Dr. Allen.

If God (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) is not the standard of truth in a person's life, then that person must choose what the standard of truth is. Then we get into the turbulent waters of whose truth is right, etc. The Aboriginals in Australia? The Native Americans in Belize? The Celtic pagans of 1000 years ago? The New Agers of modern America? It is rationally impossible to believe that all truths have equal validity, because as soon as one truth contradicts an other, then one of the truths isn't truth anymore.

That's politics hun...or to be more accurate, that is life in this Global mass communication world. Unless you think something has more validity just because more people believe it to be true, if not, than surely it doesn't matter if others think differently than you do, faith doesn't need external validation from others.

B
 
Isabella said:
Ah...well, I was defining universal in the non biblical way of course

On a site called "Biblical Families" ??? Hmmm......

Isabella said:
Though I appreciate the definition can be widened I don't think it is terribly helpful to the point

"Biblical" is THEE point on B.F.

Blessings,
Fairlight
 
Fairlight said:
"Biblical" is THEE point on B.F.

Blessings,
Fairlight

But not thee point of the Austen quote which was brought up by someone else, not by me.

Jane Austen was a Christian btw, in case you did not know.

B
 
Isabella said:
[
That's politics hun...or to be more accurate, that is life in this Global mass communication world. Unless you think something has more validity just because more people believe it to be true, if not, than surely it doesn't matter if others think differently than you do, faith doesn't need external validation from others.

B

The Bible has all validity as the only source of all truth. Any other religion or belief system is not truth if it isn't wholly leaning upon God as Creator and Sustainer and Jesus as the only Way. It's not about politics or post-modern life or majority belief. If it was about the majority worldwide belief being the truth, then I would be promoting Islam. It really doesn't matter what anyone, including me, believes. Truth is truth whether we believe it or not.
 
sola scriptura said:
The Bible has all validity as the only source of all truth. ........ Truth is truth whether we believe it or not.

I am not going to tease but...... :mrgreen:


B
 
[/quote]The Bible has all validity as the only source of all truth. Any other religion or belief system is not truth if it isn't wholly leaning upon God as Creator and Sustainer and Jesus as the only Way. It's not about politics or post-modern life or majority belief. If it was about the majority worldwide belief being the truth, then I would be promoting Islam. It really doesn't matter what anyone, including me, believes. Truth is truth whether we believe it or not.[/quote]
I agree and I think you could say that a universal truth is the laws that govern the universe. Maybe someone chooses not to believe that, but it doesn't change the fact they exist. Some people believe that truth is relative, but I would ask, are you sure about that?
 
My question was,
Is there such a thing as truth that is universally acknowledged, or is all truth based upon a belief system?
After meditating on it and reading all your posts here, I believe it is safe to conclude that we agree that there is universal truth. It is not acknowledged universally, therefore our concept of truth must be based on our belief systems rather than some world wide assertion of accepted truth. The only point that I get from this is, we must come to some standard of what truth is when dealing with people of another culture and/or belief system or we end up assaulting their integrity.
 
John Whitten said:
we must come to some standard of what truth is when dealing with people of another culture and/or belief system or we end up assaulting their integrity.

Universally accepted universal truth, huh? I propose ...
What goes in MUST come out, or there's bound to be trouble.
Dunno that everyone will agree on anything else!
:lol:
 
CecilW said:
What goes in MUST come out, or there's bound to be trouble.
Dunno that everyone will agree on anything else!
:lol:

:lol: :lol:
 
FYI, there is an understanding among many people that the reason a Gila Monster is so venomous it because it has no anus and all the food it eats causes it to be mean and toxic. No, I am not making this up. It is certainly not a universal truth or a truth acknowledged by a large group of people, but you can't live in the southwest USA long before hearing it told and believed. Reference, last line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gila_monster
 
so i guess that it comes out in meanness and toxicity.

moral of the story;
use the bathroom early and often, lest we too become a monster ;)
 
alit53 said:
Lisa,

I can tell you are really frustrated, and as one of the "older women" on the board, :o perhaps I can draw from my advanced degree from HKU, the venerable institution better known as Hard Knocks University.

First of all, I would like to strongly encourage you to not be referring to your unborn son as "the man of the house." Even kids in utero pick up all kinds of things, and that's not a label or a load that your little guy needs, now or ever.

Secondly, as someone who is married to a truck driver who is gone a lot, I know it can be tough, and even more so with small kids. However, your man is working his tail off, trust me, to take care of you and your littles. A trucker's life style is extremely tough on a guy as well. What you are facing is much like being married to a military guy, and I would suggest that you avail yourself of all the info on the web that comes out of the Family Readiness Group/ Morale Welfare and Recreation sites that are put out by the DOD. You aren't having to deal with the extra element of having someone in continual danger, but there are still resources and wisdom that you can draw from that will help.

I have been in a situation, long ago, where someone's financial choices, job choices, and moral choices were a disaster. It's no fun, but it is the invitation to find God and His faithfulness on an amazing level. I think you'll find you have more peace and energy if you can make the shift from "not going where I want to go," to "Lord, where do You want to go, and may I come along with You?" A crisis, by its very nature, is transitory. If you and just you seek the King, the King's righteousness and the Kingdom, and that alone is your focus, you are going to feel waaaaay better, and your husband will sense it, too.

Right on
 
Ephesians 5:22-33
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Recently the thought of how difficult it must be for a wife to submit herself to her husband paraded through my mind, closely followed by the accompanying question of would it be easier to submit to her husband if she revered him first”? I wrote myself a note to read Ephesians 5 when I got home. Little reminders are very helpful. However, as I read the scripture passage above, I noticed that the idea of submission and reverencing are not closely linked. Yet, it seemed that it would be far easier to submit to someone respected, revered and trusted than to merely submit out of obligation or duty. As I have recently read, again, respect and trust must be earned and are not a right. Still God instructed the Apostle to write, “revere”, not respect or trust. Is there a difference? I believe there is. Revere comes from the Greek word “phobeo”, and is used in the same sense as fearing the Lord. It is a response to the person of God or the husband in this case. We are not being taught to be terrified of God or husbands, but to hold them in the highest esteem and be afraid to displease them. Not as terror but as disappointment. Respect and trust are based upon performance, but reverence is based upon the person.

In the United States, women generally, marry a man of their choice, not by parental arrangement. I wonder if a woman married a man that she chose to marry, did she do so because she felt that he was raw material that she could shape into a “real man”, or did she marry a man she adored and loved? If she married with the expectation of shaping him, she played the fool and has no complaint if her marriage isn’t all she desires. If she married because she loved and respected her husband, when did he become unworthy of the commanded reverence? He may have not lived up to her expectations or his promises that they both had in their youth. Did he betray her hopes or perhaps her trust? He may have; factually couples start life with very unrealistic expectations. Some expectations or dreams, no one can fulfill, he or she.

In this passage God instructs husbands and wives in the business of marriage. He (God) has the right to do so, by virtue of His office as Creator and Redeemer. If we desire a blessed marriage, then we had better follow the instructions. If we don’t follow the instructions, then we should just shut up and bear it quietly, when our way fails us. In His instructions husbands are told to love their wives, with no allowance given as to whether they are loveable or not. Do the letters PMS mean anything to us? Men we are not given a pass for those days when our wives are feeling miserable and cranky. It’s not their fault and God expects us to act like Him and love our own beloved when they aren’t acting lovely.

Our Lord also instructs wives to submit to their own husbands, without qualifying the man’s worthiness of that submission.
A pastor in Nigeria, Adeolu Olusodo, said something like this, if a wife submits when she is in agreement with her husband, it really isn’t submission

. If she submits when she disagrees or doesn’t understand, then it really is submission; sorry I couldn’t find the complete quote. God also tells wives to reverence their husband, this is compatible with submission, but it is a higher degree of compliance or co-operation. Can we expect a wife to submit to and reverence her husband if she is smarter and more able than he? Can we expect her to yield to him if she is convinced that he is wrong? The answer to these questions is, YES. Not because she has no choice, but because God has commanded it and she has the choice to obey God and reverence Him. I am suspecting that most wives that do not respect, trust and revere their husbands fail to do so because of their lack of reverence for God. Truly, love and reverence for God is our highest motivation for our obeying His Word. If we revere God we will do as He says regardless of the qualifications of the husbands. In the same vein, if we men will revere God and obey Him, we will love our wives at all times, regardless of appearance, age or disposition.

Loving God makes submitting to and revering husbands much easier. Loving God makes loving and honoring wives a delightful experience. It’s time for us, men and women, to stop complaining about our spouses and correct the matter, by correcting ourselves, beginning with our genuine love for God and His Word. When we love Him, loving others is easy, because He loves through us.

First published at http://www.ambassadorsbc.com
Excellent point! In addition, when I feel that tasmanian devil rise up in my when my husband walks through the door and walks right passed me without stopping to kiss me after he's been at work all day, I feel hurt and rejected... I have to fight hard to not speak to him with an attitude, I usually can't control myself enough to not show my disappointment and he says that I get a terrible scowl upon my face... This truly a pivotal point in your passage that I need and want to get right. Lots to pray for.
 
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I have often been amazed at how relevant to me the topics here can be. I must have missed this thread from long ago....and here it is bumped to the front and blessing me many years after it was written.

I find that while men and women are in different positions in the family structure....we can often experience very similar "problems" or dysfunctions when our needs are not met.....or when we don't feel our partner is aware of ...or trying to meet those needs.


Excellent point! In addition, when I feel that tasmanian devil rise up in my when my husband walks through the door and walks right passed me without stopping to kiss me after he's been at work all day, I feel hurt and rejected... I have to fight hard to not speak to him with an attitude, I usually can't control myself enough to not show my disappointment and he says that I get a terrible scowl upon my face... This truly a pivotal point in your passage that I need and want to get right. Lots to pray for.
My husband might walk past me and ignore me on purpose if he's seen to many scowls on my face. He doesn't know what I'm thinking about and so if he even thinks I'm mad at him we can get into a circle of avoidance and hard feelings. Each of us might just be frustrated about something unrelated to "us" (our relationship) but if we don't understand what the other is dealing with "jumping to confusions" (as we like to say here) can happen.
When there is love and understanding between us, everything is right in the world. When he feels I don't want to be around him (and vice versa) all of life seems hard and stressful.


I feel YHWH has been recalibrating our hearts this past year.....helping us understand what really matters. Family, and health.....while staying in His grace and love.

I have three kids sick with what one had last week. I'm counting my blessings and thankful that the immune boosters and nap I got today (and gave the others too) pulled me out of it. I wish it had knocked it out of their systems too.
With big families we can take turns filling in for each other when we get sick in turns.
 
I have often been amazed at how relevant to me the topics here can be. I must have missed this thread from long ago....and here it is bumped to the front and blessing me many years after it was written.

I find that while men and women are in different positions in the family structure....we can often experience very similar "problems" or dysfunctions when our needs are not met.....or when we don't feel our partner is aware of ...or trying to meet those needs.



My husband might walk past me and ignore me on purpose if he's seen to many scowls on my face. He doesn't know what I'm thinking about and so if he even thinks I'm mad at him we can get into a circle of avoidance and hard feelings. Each of us might just be frustrated about something unrelated to "us" (our relationship) but if we don't understand what the other is dealing with "jumping to confusions" (as we like to say here) can happen.
When there is love and understanding between us, everything is right in the world. When he feels I don't want to be around him (and vice versa) all of life seems hard and stressful.


I feel YHWH has been recalibrating our hearts this past year.....helping us understand what really matters. Family, and health.....while staying in His grace and love.

I have three kids sick with what one had last week. I'm counting my blessings and thankful that the immune boosters and nap I got today (and gave the others too) pulled me out of it. I wish it had knocked it out of their systems too.
With big families we can take turns filling in for each other when we get sick in turns.
Thank you so much! Hope you all start feeling better soon!
 
Thank you so much! Hope you all start feeling better soon!
We joke here that "The placebo (force) is strong with this one" (meaning my horse vitamin immune boosters I take when I feel I am coming down with something. The children all feel better this morning, and my youngest daughter slept all afternoon yesterday....and all night. When I woke her for a bathroom trip I gave her more immune boosters and herbs. She slept well!
Got stuff to do now. Thanks for the good wishes.
 
We joke here that "The placebo (force) is strong with this one" (meaning my horse vitamin immune boosters I take when I feel I am coming down with something. The children all feel better this morning, and my youngest daughter slept all afternoon yesterday....and all night. When I woke her for a bathroom trip I gave her more immune boosters and herbs. She slept well!
Got stuff to do now. Thanks for the good wishes.
So glad to hear that your gang is improving! I appreciate what you said about possible misunderstandings, tensions and things that can cause distance between us.. I'm working hard to reduce my scowls... He says that if I don't, I'm possibly going to get a permanent scowl on my face from doing it so much!!
 
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He says that if I don't, I'm possibly going to get a permanent scowl on my face from doing it so much!!
I heard something similar about what my hubby called a grimace on my face when I'd be hand mlking the sheep.

Some things are sub conscious like the tension in my face while milking small awkward teats on my critters, but once we are aware of something like that we can make an effort to change.

We saw a show called "What the bleep do we know" and it explained the brain chemistry of thought and attraction. Kinda fascinating!
 
So...we have a power outage stopping me from chores.....but my phone still has power!

As I read the original post the other day I recognized areas I can work on myself, but also had thoughts about the "other side" ...the instruction to husbands.....and my experiences as a wife over the years of marriage. Here goes.


I noticed that the idea of submission and reverencing are not closely linked. Yet, it seemed that it would be far easier to submit to someone respected, revered and trusted than to merely submit out of obligation or duty.
Yep!
If she married with the expectation of shaping him, she played the fool and has no complaint if her marriage isn’t all she desires.
Yep. Agreed completely! I married a man I was impressed with and did not expect to change him.
If she married because she loved and respected her husband, when did he become unworthy of the commanded reverence?
Now this starts getting more complicated, as my husband has felt in the last few years like he is not respected and his instruction to me has not been taken seriously enough.
In this passage God instructs husbands and wives in the business of marriage. He (God) has the right to do so, by virtue of His office as Creator and Redeemer. If we desire a blessed marriage, then we had better follow the instructions. If we don’t follow the instructions, then we should just shut up and bear it quietly, when our way fails us.
But ....but....its easier to blame someone else!! Sooo.....
1692564420420.png
But in all seriousness, we can each only change ourselves....but we can make our partner want to change by doing our part to the best of our ability. There is a scripture that tells women married to non believers that they can win their husbands to Christ by their example of godly subbmission... so surely a believing husband would appreciate his wife walking humbly and serving him with love.
In His instructions husbands are told to love their wives, with no allowance given as to whether they are loveable or not.
My husband proved his love to me beyond all doubt about 22 years ago by loving me through a difficult time.

Our Lord also instructs wives to submit to their own husbands, without qualifying the man’s worthiness of that submission. A pastor in Nigeria, Adeolu Olusodo, said something like this, if a wife submits when she is in agreement with her husband, it really isn’t submission. If she submits when she disagrees or doesn’t understand, then it really is submission;
Agreed! Both the Biblical instruction and quote are correct.
I am suspecting that most wives that do not respect, trust and revere their husbands fail to do so because of their lack of reverence for God.
Perhaps. But maybe it's more complicated than that.
Did he betray her hopes or perhaps her trust? He may have; factually couples start life with very unrealistic expectations.
Here is where it gets really personal for me.
The personality tests members here were doing years ago (that neither I or my husband had any interest in and did not do) say...(based on our children answering the questions for us) that our personality types are not very compatible and that it is not recommended that these personality types marry each other.

Hmmm.

That is irrelevant at this point.
We vowed our lives to each other over 27 years ago!! ..but it might kind of explain some of the challenges we've had to work through. What my husband has long called fights I call communication issues because I have no desire to oppose him, cause him stress, etc.

...but he often feels I oppose him, and this actually stresses him. He also feels disrespected at times and that I am willful and do my will instead of his.

These are serious complaints to a wife that wanted her husband to be head of the household from the beginning, never wanted to manipulate, be a backseat driver, or a burden to her husband.

People that love each other don't want to cause each other pain....but guess what. Hurts still happen. In 2015 I did something deeply hurtful to him on accident. He responded to that in a way that was hurtful to me.
Since his other love joined us we have both done things "wrong" (as in not ideal or supportive to each other) that caused each other grief. I remember thinking and telling him he had unreasonable expectations. That sounds bad....but it was actually minor. He expected me to be a constant and not change or act differently with another woman here in his life, heart, bed. He didn't realize I needed time after "moving over" and making room for her...(watching children and doing chores so they had time to visit and spend time) to reconnect with him. Spending time with her made him want to spend time with me and be "with me" but did NOT make me feel connected to him and want to be "with him" especially spontaneously. So he would suggest....and I'd turn him down.. .and he'd feel I didn't want to be with him....while I DID want to be with him, but hadn't even had a private conversation and needed that first.

That's just an example, of course told from "my side" or perspective.
I was kind of awkward at first about how to be around him with this other person there, and she was as flipped over him as I ever was and wanted to be with him all the time. Even snuggling him or sitting on his lap were things I was uncomfortable about at first.
So while he had the same comfort level with her that he had with me, I was waaayyy behind that. It took time for me to get to know her, and get comfortable, and even now two years later I'd still say there's a difference.
Back to hurts. I saw this and feel it is relevant.
Screenshot_20240717_171735_Brave.jpgScreenshot_20240717_171745_Brave.jpg
As I said, we have hurt each other. Being or feeling criticized doesn't make surrender (or submission) easy... him feeling disrespected and not obeyed doesn't make being loving toward me easy.

Relationships are work. But worth it!!
We cannot find the strength to earn our way back into each other's favor....each needs grace and forgiveness for accidental hurts.....and to realize your loved one wouldn't be intentionally hurtful....that means treat all hurts like accidental ones.

Love covers a multitude of ...."missed the marks."

My phone is low and the power won't be on for a couple more hours....so I'm going to post this now.
I hope my words here are understood and taken the way I meant them. (Please Lord)
...and help someone.
 
So...we have a power outage stopping me from chores.....but my phone still has power!

As I read the original post the other day I recognized areas I can work on myself, but also had thoughts about the "other side" ...the instruction to husbands.....and my experiences as a wife over the years of marriage. Here goes.



Yep!

Yep. Agreed completely! I married a man I was impressed with and did not expect to change him.

Now this starts getting more complicated, as my husband has felt in the last few years like he is not respected and his instruction to me has not been taken seriously enough.

But ....but....its easier to blame someone else!! Sooo.....
View attachment 8001
But in all seriousness, we can each only change ourselves....but we can make our partner want to change by doing our part to the best of our ability. There is a scripture that tells women married to non believers that they can win their husbands to Christ by their example of godly subbmission... so surely a believing husband would appreciate his wife walking humbly and serving him with love.

My husband proved his love to me beyond all doubt about 22 years ago by loving me through a difficult time.


Agreed! Both the Biblical instruction and quote are correct.

Perhaps. But maybe it's more complicated than that.

Here is where it gets really personal for me.
The personality tests members here were doing years ago (that neither I or my husband had any interest in and did not do) say...(based on our children answering the questions for us) that our personality types are not very compatible and that it is not recommended that these personality types marry each other.

Hmmm.

That is irrelevant at this point.
We vowed our lives to each other over 27 years ago!! ..but it might kind of explain some of the challenges we've had to work through. What my husband has long called fights I call communication issues because I have no desire to oppose him, cause him stress, etc.

...but he often feels I oppose him, and this actually stresses him. He also feels disrespected at times and that I am willful and do my will instead of his.

These are serious complaints to a wife that wanted her husband to be head of the household from the beginning, never wanted to manipulate, be a backseat driver, or a burden to her husband.

People that love each other don't want to cause each other pain....but guess what. Hurts still happen. In 2015 I did something deeply hurtful to him on accident. He responded to that in a way that was hurtful to me.
Since his other love joined us we have both done things "wrong" (as in not ideal or supportive to each other) that caused each other grief. I remember thinking and telling him he had unreasonable expectations. That sounds bad....but it was actually minor. He expected me to be a constant and not change or act differently with another woman here in his life, heart, bed. He didn't realize I needed time after "moving over" and making room for her...(watching children and doing chores so they had time to visit and spend time) to reconnect with him. Spending time with her made him want to spend time with me and be "with me" but did NOT make me feel connected to him and want to be "with him" especially spontaneously. So he would suggest....and I'd turn him down.. .and he'd feel I didn't want to be with him....while I DID want to be with him, but hadn't even had a private conversation and needed that first.

That's just an example, of course told from "my side" or perspective.
I was kind of awkward at first about how to be around him with this other person there, and she was as flipped over him as I ever was and wanted to be with him all the time. Even snuggling him or sitting on his lap were things I was uncomfortable about at first.
So while he had the same comfort level with her that he had with me, I was waaayyy behind that. It took time for me to get to know her, and get comfortable, and even now two years later I'd still say there's a difference.
Back to hurts. I saw this and feel it is relevant.
View attachment 8002View attachment 8004
As I said, we have hurt each other. Being or feeling criticized doesn't make surrender (or submission) easy... him feeling disrespected and not obeyed doesn't make being loving toward me easy.

Relationships are work. But worth it!!
We cannot find the strength to earn our way back into each other's favor....each needs grace and forgiveness for accidental hurts.....and to realize your loved one wouldn't be intentionally hurtful....that means treat all hurts like accidental ones.

Love covers a multitude of ...."missed the marks."

My phone is low and the power won't be on for a couple more hours....so I'm going to post this now.
I hope my words here are understood and taken the way I meant them. (Please Lord)
...and help someone.
Jolene,
I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate you sharing this, it could not have been easy to go through what you have been through. I hope and pray that things are getting easier for you now and that you are content and fulfilled. I really can relate to The accidental hurt and so much more about the evolution of your relationship with your husband. I found myself in a place that was very uncomfortable recently and has been building for some time, The barrage and the criticism that was not delivered lovingly.. I had tried telling him directly how much it hurt and how it made me feel but he didn't understand or he was distracted with other events, it continued. It happened again last weekend, I picked up my cell phone and tried texting him, I told him that when he talks to me with such flagrant disrespect that I end up thinking that he really doesn't love me, respect me or want me. I said to him "you sound like a man that feels trapped and certainly doesn't want to be in a relationship with me, that's how your words make me feel". For the first time since this started I feel like he finally gets it and hopefully we can move forward. I believe there is a fine line between appropriately asserting ourselves and overstepping our boundaries, I'm still looking for the balance. Again thank you for sharing!
 
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