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Relating to society

Man, I wish I had kept stats!! It would be so interesting now....

Psychologically, fear of punishment is a stronger motivator than desire for reward. It exaggerates our response to "I don't like you anymore" type responses out of proportion to the reality of the math.

This is my memory at work, and subject to a few disclaimers on that score, but I think the ladies would back me here:

We have spoken with hundreds (say 2-300) of people about our lifestyle. I could count on my two hands the number of extremely adverse reactions we've had. Maybe one hand depending on your definition of "extreme". The strongest negative reactions come from categories that I refer to as "professional Christians" and "damaged goods".

Professional Christians are the pastors and teachers that have been to seminary or have some other reason to think they are keepers of the One True Faith. The gatekeepers. The people that know they can't be wrong for whatever reason, and are not willing to examine the possibility that they have been misled. The people that think it is their job and their God-given right and duty to straighten out people who believe such heresies.

Damaged goods are the women that have been hurt by "unfaithful" men. I put unfaithful in quotes because of course I mean unfaithful in terms our culture understands: they tried to love two women at the same time. It is not usually the man who rejects his wife for his new lover (if he wanted to do that he would have already divorced her and there would be no need for lying and cheating). Last time I checked most divorces are initiated by women and most of those are over the issue of another woman (although the reasons have become more frivolous and arbitrary recently, hence the term "frivorce"). Women that for whatever reason have issues with men tend to take as dogma that "men are no damn good" and "men just want multiple wives so they can have more sex".

No point in debating a closed mind in either case.

Behind "extremely adverse", there's a category I would call "socially awkward". These are people that have partially withdrawn from fellowship/friendship simply because they are confused and embarrassed and don't know how to relate their relationship with us to their relationships with others that don't know us that would disapprove of our lifestyle without investigation or even a hearing. They tend to be friendly when we run into them at the grocery store, for example, but the relationship has obviously cooled, or has obvious-if-intangible boundaries around what sorts of things we do together. That could be (rough estimate) another 10-15% of responses. I really don't mind these guys, for various reasons, including that I think I understand their issues and would probably do the same thing if the roles were reversed. Most of us can think of people that are nice people with interesting characteristics that are just "too weird" to be friends with, we just have different brands of weird.

Altogether, it's probably a normal distribution (bell curve) of mostly "who cares? it's your life" as the average, with "that's kinda cool" and "that's kinda uncomfortably strange" about a standard deviation on either side of that, and "socially awkward" (see above) and "I'm cool because I'm tolerant" (see below) outside of that, and old friends and relatives lost (relationships of blood, childhood, or adolescence) and great new friends found (that I wouldn't have met but for this lifestyle) as the outliers.

I don't think I'm making that up or remember a story to fit a pretty graph. Best I can remember it, that's the life we've lived so far.

[Note: With "I'm cool because I'm tolerant", I'm referring to a class of people that thinks it's hip to have gay friends, or other-race friends, or whatever shows that you are a socially progressive person. "This is cool because my friends will think it's cool that I know a polygamist" corresponds roughly to "I can't really be friends with these people because my other friends won't approve".]
 
Mystic, you are correct that I value the relationship, at least in as much as I'd rather not intentionally break the relationship. I have already tried to drop the subject with her and Dan and I have both endeavored to make her feel special, though she lives hours away. The thing is, she won't drop it. I brought up a situation where my son confronted his friend's mother on a completely unrelated matter and she automatically blamed our views on poly for the original conflict. I rather have the feeling that she may eventually wind up in the "socially awkward" group that Andrew mentioned.

Andrew, I find it interesting that your strongest negatives are from those categories. The 2 pastors that Dan has communicated about this were not strongly negative, they were, if anything, neutral to positive, both freely admitting that they couldn't speak to it because they hadn't searched the scripture on the matter. I would say that the friend I was so surprised by would be "damaged goods" though not in the same sense, her wounds have to do with childhood abandonment, I think.

So, when someone responds so negatively, and you drop the subject but they keep bringing it up, is it more loving to continue to pursue the relationship, or to just let it go where it goes?



*edited for spelling correction
 
GloryGirl said:
Andrew, I find it interesting that your strongest negatives are from those categories. The 2 pastors that Dan has communicated about this were not strongly negative, they were, if anything, neutral to positive, both freely admitting that they couldn't speak to it because they hadn't searched the scripture on the matter.
I would hasten to add that my experience is probably not normative, and I have heard reports of accepting/tolerant/neutral pastors from others. Just hasn't been my road, I guess. I'm including as accepting those pastors that are willing to agree with the basic concept but 'could never preach or teach that to their congregation', even though I wouldn't really consider that 'accepting'. More like the 'socially awkward' group.

GloryGirl said:
I would say that the friend I was so surprised by would be "damaged goods" though not in the same sense, her wounds have to do with childhood abandonment, I think.
Same deal. Here, what I think may actually be normative is the idea that anyone, male or female, with woundedness issues is going to be a problem, and that's not just in the area of polygamy, but it's the pertinent application here. For example, in a couple of cases, I have known men that had their affairs and got past it and stayed monogamous, but they are not able, willing, or whatever to open the can of worms of "what might have been" and rethink the rules. Rather, they tend (in my experience, of course) to be a little more judgmental. Or a lot. Depends.

GloryGirl said:
So, when someone responds so negatively, and you drop the subject but they keep bringing it up, is it more loving to continue to pursue the relationship, or to just let it go where it goes?
My two cents: I'd change the subject to how much I value the relationship (assuming that's true) and how I really don't want this to affect our relationship. There are some comparisons you could use. What would you say if your husband were transferred to Alaska and you were moving for an indefinite time or maybe permanently? What if your friend said, "I can't believe your husband's career is more important than I am"? There's some discussion you can have around that, but at some point, if she just obstinately and petulantly makes it a personal issue, then your friendship is going to wither.

At least I hope it would wither, because otherwise it's going to degenerate into some kind of weird co-dependent or abuser/enabler relationship.

Remember: A lot of initial fear is "fear of the unknown", because for most Americans, the revelation that their friend or relative has 'gone poly' means that they are going off in a direction that in incomprehensible. In fact, if you were moving to Alaska or converting to Mormonism or something equally straining on the relationship, at least they would have more of an idea of what's going on and what it means. Anything you can do to show your friend that she is still important to you and that your ideas about family really aren't going to change your relationship with her much will be soothing. Stability and predictability = comfort. Try to comfort her.
 
andrew said:
Same deal. Here, what I think may actually be normative is the idea that anyone, male or female, with woundedness issues is going to be a problem, and that's not just in the area of polygamy, but it's the pertinent application here. For example, in a couple of cases, I have known men that had their affairs and got past it and stayed monogamous, but they are not able, willing, or whatever to open the can of worms of "what might have been" and rethink the rules. Rather, they tend (in my experience, of course) to be a little more judgmental. Or a lot. Depends.

That example accurately describes one of our other negative responses. I should point out as well that a couple of the "negatives" I wouldn't even have put on the list. One because it's a friend of my mom's I haven't seen in... I dunno, 20 years? Who we didn't even talk to directly. And a couple of the negatives were basically against the idea, but have been completely cool with me since in the interactions we've had, they just have concerns/disagree with the lifestyle.

It mostly pains me that this particular person causes Cherie such distress. I would happily continue to build relationship with them, but if they can't accept me/us for who we are without the barbed comments and judgements, then I'll shake the dust and move on.
 
Well it seems the ex is finding out but is not thinking anything legal but rather just telling the kids that it is wrong. So we have had to share with them about some of their favorite bible Poole like King David and Solomon to reassure them.
I also since have told my mother and she basically said that it is between me and God. I told her what the scriptures says but I doubt she will really study it very thoroughly. However she has accepted it and is being very kind to my second wife and also is allowing the kids to call her grandma.
It seems the in-laws of my second wife are the last to know and I hope they will be just as accepting.
 
That actually sounds like it's not going bad at all then really! I'm glad your mom is loving the people even if she doesn't necessarily agree. As far as the ex goes, well, not ideal, but could be a lot worse. Hopefully things go well with the inlaws!
 
While I have enjoy a short discussion on the following element of this topic, I would like to hear the views from people in the broader BF community.

Regarding society's views of what constitutes 'proper' relationships, would people please enlighten me/us with their experiences (personal and vicariate) of different ages. In this case, I am interested in 20 years difference in ages, with the man older than the woman.

What is it that women like in an older man? And what will keep that relationship going, once the man is a grey, wrinkled tired 80 year old, and the women is still a stunningly beautiful, remarkably amazing, vivacious and sexy 60 year old?

Anyone's thoughts, please.
 
In my experience any age difference over 10 years starts to draw attention of the not so good sort. People start talking about "daddy issues" etc. There's a basis in fact with a lot of those relationships as well. Generally the things the woman finds attractive are maturity (perceived or actual), stability, the man's increased social power (financial, respect in business, knowledge/wisdom, etc), and sometimes just the plain old thrill of taboo.

Now of course, some of those things are better than others, and in some cases none of them might even be a factor. It's entirely possible for someone to find a soul mate who just happens to have a large age gap with them. In the latter case, what keeps the relationship going is what kept it going in the first place. Say you had an "old soul" young 25 year old lady who just doesn't get how her peers enjoy going out clubbing, and would prefer curling up with a good book, a glass of wine, and some Sinatra on the stereo. She could easily fall for a 45 year old guy who enjoyed the same kinds of things over some guy her age practicing his pickup lines at the local bar. Nothing wrong with that relationship, and since it's built on things such as mutual interest etc, it has a much better chance of standing the test of time.

Conversely, take a college girl of say 22 who falls for her 40-something professor because he's *sooo* mature and worldly, plus he totally looks like George Clooney, and that relationship is unlikely to last very long or be sustainable as age really starts to set in.

Now, if you're talking that sort of age difference for a 2nd wife... well, personally I'd think that had better be a pretty exceptional lady. First, you're going to deal with compounded social stigma if the 2nd wife is 20 years younger. People reacting to a 30's couple adding a 30 year old wife is different than a 40's couple adding a 20yr old wife. 2nd, it could be extra challenging for the 1st wife to deal with jealousy issues.

Anyone out there in a PM who is very different in age to one or more of their wives, or significantly younger or older than their husband?
 
"What is it that women like in an older man? And what will keep that relationship going, once the man is a grey, wrinkled tired 80 year old, and the women is still a stunningly beautiful, remarkably amazing, vivacious and sexy 60 year old?"

Who's tired at 80 sir?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -game.html

http://www.boredpanda.com/78-year-vegan ... im-morris/

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-20048675

Those badasses are in way better shape than poor old mid age me.

And we're not even delving, yet, into OT times. :D
 
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