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Relating to society

GloryGirl

GloryGirl

Member
So, I've been wondering a few things as I've read through the stories that have been shared here.

How many plural families are open in their communities?

What reasons did you have for being open about it or not if that is your family's choice?

If you are open, when did you decide to be open and how did you handle it?
 
We are 'need to know' open in our community and usually apply 'the dinner rule', which is that if we know you and like you enough to invite you to our house for dinner then you need to know. We do not lead with or flaunt our lifestyle, and made a deliberate decision in the beginning not to become advocates (after watching several families implode in short order).

We are in the process of becoming somewhat more open for cultural and political reasons. It's time for some of us to step up and represent our community in the marketplace of ideas (not just the institutional church, which has been the focus for a lot of people for a long time, but in the broader secular culture), and while we're not thrilled about the potential fallout from that, it's a risk we feel led to take at this time. This is a time of tremendous opportunity and potentially tremendous hazard if we let our culture wrestle with rethinking the very ideas of marriage and relationship without our voice being heard.

In passing/border/polluting terms, we're a border family. We're not lying about or hiding who we are, and we're not offensively trying to engage everybody we meet to force them to recognize our relationships as legitimate. We're just doing our thing and taking it one day at a time, building relationship with people we like and staying away from those we don't.
 
First time I've heard that "passing/border/polluting" terminology. I *think* I can infer fully what it means, but wouldn't mind some clarification on that.

So I am curious (for everyone, not just Andrew), if you've historically not been particularly open about your practice, how did you meet/court any wife past the first?
 
The terminology comes from the book Border Sexualities, Border Families in Schools, which I have not read and probably will not read. Just can't handle the writing style. I was introduced to the book by a blogger whose review of the book was sufficient to give me a useful tool to throw in my toolkit.

The author uses the term "border" in two different ways that are confusing, but interesting enough for us poly types. What I find useful is the distinction between coping strategies:

  • Passing - living a closeted life, doing what you have to do to avoid scrutiny
  • Polluting - living an outed life, ranging from making no effort to hide to actually promoting or advocating your lifestyle
  • Bordering - the middle ground, out in some ways and some contexts, closeted in others
That's the sense in which I was using the terms.

What's interesting (imo) is that her focus in the book is on bisexuality and polyamory, for which she uses the term "border sexualities". I don't know how far you are down this rabbit hole, but you will notice soon if you haven't already that the battle is over in our broader culture, and homosexuality is largely accepted, as long as it's monogamous homosexuality. Bi- and poly-folk occupy a space between straight and gay that people still can't get their minds around, so I guess you could say we're "the new queer" (odd, different, strange). That's another sense of being on the 'border' that is valid in its own right while being a little confusing if you mix that with the labels for social strategies.

A quick two cents on the other question: All four of us were already 'nutjobs for Jesus', working together doing intense prophetic ministry among homeless people (mostly runaway teenagers, some adult drunks) when God started speaking to us about marriage. We didn't really see this coming until it was obvious that God was moving us in this direction. So on the one hand, I have nothing to contribute to the "how to meet/court" conversation. Unless I do. I offer this as an alternate strategy, not as a 'one is right the other is wrong' strategy (and I'm hoping other guys will jump in here with come thoughts on courting). The only thing I can contribute is that one way to find a wife is not to think about it at all (does that sound sort of Bruce Lee? that would be cool...). Focus on finding your place of service in the kingdom and let God bring you as many helpers meet for your need as He thinks you really need.

That's just one way to look at it, though, and I'm looking forward to whatever anyone else has to say about courting.
 
Our family is border as well according to those terms. I think our greatest hindrance to outright bold honesty is my second wife has kids from a former marriage of which are 8 and 9
We all came from the same church of which I pastored for a few years and so there are a lot of complications.
Our greatest concern is the kids. our fear is that the ex husband would try and cause custody problems seeing how our lifestyle is borderline illegal.

Therefore our kids know which are from ages 21-8. Also we have felt free to tell many that I work with. But our immediate families are still in the dark although thy joke around a lot about how close we all are yet have never straight out asked us. What we will do when that happens remains to be seen because we must protect the kids. Anyone else been in this type of situation?
 
Courting4Life said:
twohappy said:
our lifestyle is borderline illegal.
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How so?
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In the U.S., when anyone comes up on the state child protective agency's radar — for anything from a valid allegation to no allegation at all — and they pick up the kids, it's common for the agency workers to make arbitrary, abusive demands, backed with the threat of the children's permanent removal. Often they will demand that the mother divorce the father (and we're talking about typical, legal monogamous marriages here), or alter other household practices which have nothing to do with legality or illegality.

The family is kept jumping through hoops while the workers lay the groundwork for an airtight case against the them, usually backed in the end by statements the workers have managed to elicit from the frightened parents themselves, as the parents tried desperately to curry favor with the workers in hopes of winning their children back.

It happens a lot, but we don't hear about it partly because the parents are scared into submission and afraid of causing trouble. The state has their kids, after all.

This is widespread partly because the federal government reimburses state agencies a set amount for each child they permanently remove (and a larger amount if the child has special needs). Yanking children and terminating the parents' rights isn't cheap; it involves a lot of money.

I mention just these few details to make it clear that "borderline illegal" is more than enough to sink your ship when an agency with unchecked power is involved.

What you can do to avoid trouble:

  • Know your rights as a citizen.
  • Avoid looking poor or vulnerable.
  • Maintain connections with solid people in your community.
If they take your kids:

  • Politely decline to talk to protective workers and police.
  • Allow no one into your home without a warrant.
  • Sign nothing.
  • Find a lawyer who has experience with this.
I'm not a lawyer. I was told all this by someone who is.
 
Mystic, that information is exactly right. In addition, most adults are aware that bigamy is a criminal offense, and our distinctions re cohabitation or 'spiritual' or 'covenant' marriage don't usually cut any ice with opponents, who tend to get angered because they feel we're trying to get away with something criminal on a technicality. In that sense also, polygamous cohabitation could be considered "borderline illegal".
 
Thanks mystic and Andrew. You spoke very eloquently and informatively about exactly what I meant. My concern beyond that is what if you throw in a divorced father looking for a good reason to take the kids and viola you have my situation which is not so easy to just come out with everything so openly.

So my initial question was, has anybody else dealt with this or has some great advice?
 
Yes, first hand. My ex was in a polygamous relationship. My divorce attorney told me that the courts no longer really care and that polygamy would have no bearing on the case - and it did not. In fact when my ex raised the subject it was completely glossed over by judge and attorneys alike.

First hand again. My husbands attorney almost fell off her chair laughing at the notion that the word "polygamy" would have any bearing on his divorce. There were threats of immigration being involved (neither of us are US Citizens) and again all attorneys involved, including hers, explained to her how ridiculous the threats were. Basically if the government felt compelled enough to waste the taxpayers money trying to get a conviction and a prison sentence for polygamy then MAYBE immigration would bat an eyelid.

Sometimes the fear in your eyes gives them power over you. The poly families I know that have been investigated in recent years look them straight in the eyes and say "Sure this is who we are and this is how we live - you wanna prosecute?" The states know that this is a no-win situation for them. Best case scenario they get nothing. Worst case scenario you have the Brown family pushing them every begrudging step towards a legal ruling in an ever higher level of courtroom. This is a fight the states do not want. Budgets are tight and they have bigger fish to fry.
 
Thanks for sharing that eternitee!

I think you've got something there especially on one point. Agencies will bully you because it's easy and cheap, a lot of times though they don't have the actual authority to back up their threats.
 
twohappy, a coupla more things:

One of the things a poly lifestyle positively forces you to do is be more clear-headed and thoughtful about your relationships. It's harder and there's more at risk, so you have to start paying closer attention to what's going on.

I generally agree with eternitee and UntoldGlory, but as a general caution to everyone I'd discourage "let's you and him fight" type arguments. Those of us that will not be chipping in on your legal fees if you get into it with someone can afford to be more bold, but ultimately you're the one that has to assess your risks, because you'll pay the costs if you get into it with someone. That said, I agree with eternitee and UG that you don't want to be locked into a prison of your own mental construction that's not based on the truth of your legal situation. But it's not as simple as either poly IS or IS NOT a problem. You need an accurate assessment of your situation, your d.a., the law in your jurisdiction, your lifestyle issues, etc. Don't be a coward, but don't be foolish, either.

Final thought: I'm aware of some cases where poly living has been made an issue of and has resulted in ridiculous expenses for attorneys, social workers, psychologists, etc. However, I also know that sometimes it's too easy for us to play the poly card, because it's easier to think "they hate us because we're poly" than it is to deal with whatever it is they really hate. It occurs to me to wonder whether the ex-husband has any issue with y'all or the ex-wife or the ex-wife's relationships with the kids other than plural marriage. If so, then he may use PM as part of his case against you, even if ultimately that alone wouldn't really do it. In any event, it's a good exercise to ask yourself whether the ex- would really go to war just over the poly issue, or as part of a bigger problem. If you can identify and address the other issues, you might find that PM just really isn't the issue.
 
I fully agree with Andrew. Don't become fixated on poly in a manner that blinds you to your surroundings, and handle whatever true concerns are present. Exercise great care in your family. If you aren't certain, local legal counsel is certainly suggested.
 
Thanks for all the insight. We are not currently in any legal battle nor in fear of one. It was only a question that has come up as a possible hindrance to our relationship becoming more public.
We have not opened up our relationship to many people due to the fact it is a very new to us and so we wanted to move slowly and seek wise counsel from those of you that have gone before us. Thank you all again for your insight and we look forward to gaining more insight and wisdom through Gods people in our new journey. May The Lord bless all of you and win you favor in every situation you find yourselves in.
 
Many blessings on you too! Please keep us up in the loop too, since we're becoming more public in our beliefs (even though we're not actually poly yet), so we'd love to hear how it's going for you!
 
twohappy said:
We have not opened up our relationship to many people due to the fact it is a very new to us and so we wanted to move slowly and seek wise counsel from those of you that have gone before us.
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That's a good strategy. :cool:
 
Well, we just had our first "negative" response to the concept, but it wasn't at all what I was expecting.

When I told our friend last week, I expected her to have questions, maybe to not agree but to accept the situation and move forward. Whether or not she and her husband can actually do that remains to be seen, but the surprising part was her first reaction.

She was hurt because "Someone who's known you for less time is getting a more important role in your lives." I spent the better part of 2 hours talking with and trying to reassure her about both the concept and her place in our hearts one day and then Dan and I sat down together with her a few days later and spent about 3 hours trying to help her through the intense emotions. She even said she'd lost weight over it.

It's funny, because if it weren't for that emotional response, I think she'd be able to look at the actual scriptures in a fair way, but as it is, all she can do is try to talk us out of it with many of the weak arguments pulled off the web.
 
Very early on in our inquiry into what the bible taught about polygamy it was a couple of hateful, irrational responses that really opened my eyes to the spiritual roots of our cultural blindness. And in it's own twisted, negative way, that experience validated our early findings. When the people who are calm and rational range from "that's weird, but it's your life" to "interesting, please tell me more", and the people who argue (typically loudly) that you are in grievous sin are on the edge of losing emotional control altogether (and in some cases going right over the edge), then that is some additional evidence you are on the right track (and that something spiritual/emotional, not rational, is behind the cultural norm and the opposition you are experiencing).
 
Andrew, that is very encouraging. Thank you for sharing that.

Because I tend to get weird about details, I made a list this morning of all the people we have talked to about polygamy and whether their response was positive, negative, or neutral. I think I was reassuring myself that the one really negative response was not as big of a deal as it felt like.

I then worked out the percentages because, you know, percentages (to borrow a figure of speech from my boys).

55% positive
28% neutral
17% negative

Seeing that set of numbers reminds me that people who are negative in our lives sometimes have a far bigger impact or voice than they should.
 
GloryGirl said:
She was hurt because "Someone who's known you for less time is getting a more important role in your lives."
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That sounds like a very insecure person, in which case the objections aren't really about polygyny at all. Seems you value the relationship, so I suggest dropping the matter cold and taking a little time to help her feel special.
 
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