• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Prostitution vs adultery

Status
Not open for further replies.
Actually, Zec does have a point here. When Christ says "What God has joined together let not man put asunder", how does God join together? God does the one flesh side of things. Humans can make a decision to move in together, but that's not the bit God does. He joins them as one flesh when they consummate it. So Christ is, without a doubt, referring to "one flesh" in the first half of that statement.

The question is whether the words "put asunder" refer to one flesh, or the physical decision to cohabitate.

Personally I read that part as referring to cohabitation. In other words, if God has joined them together as one flesh - in a manner far stronger than anything man can do - do not presume to take them apart physically. You can't break what God has done, they're still one flesh, don't even try.

While Zec is reading "put asunder" as also referring to one flesh. In other words he is saying that humans actually have the power to make someone no longer one flesh, but Christ says don't do it.

Interesting. I can see why he reads it this way. I disagree because I think "one flesh" is stronger and more serious than this, not something people can break even if they want to. But it's changed my understanding of Zec's perspective anyway.
 
FollowingHim said:
Actually, Zec does have a point here. When Christ says "What God has joined together let not man put asunder", how does God join together? God does the one flesh side of things. Humans can make a decision to move in together, but that's not the bit God does. He joins them as one flesh when they consummate it. So Christ is, without a doubt, referring to "one flesh" in the first half of that statement.

The question is whether the words "put asunder" refer to one flesh, or the physical decision to cohabitate.

Personally I read that part as referring to cohabitation. In other words, if God has joined them together as one flesh - in a manner far stronger than anything man can do - do not presume to take them apart physically. You can't break what God has done, they're still one flesh, don't even try.

While Zec is reading "put asunder" as also referring to one flesh. In other words he is saying that humans actually have the power to make someone no longer one flesh, but Christ says don't do it.

Interesting. I can see why he reads it this way. I disagree because I think "one flesh" is stronger and more serious than this, not something people can break even if they want to. But it's changed my understanding of Zec's perspective anyway.
Click to expand...
I might need to go back and look at put asunder. I just assumed it referred to one flesh and didn’t even consider an alternative.
 
"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:6, also Mark 10:9)

I think it's a direct prohibition on what happens dozens of times daily in the states with DV arrest "laws" - someone calls 911, because they hear neighbors arguing, or just want to cause problems, (think "SWATing") police come, and arrest one or both husband and wife (they just ASSUME jurisdiction, of course), and then an AUTOMATIC 'restraining order' is issued, prohibiting any contact. They may take the kids as well. And nothing is ever the same again.

I contend that is "putting asunder." And I wish I was kidding, but I suspect it really does happen a dozen or more times daily. I know of far too many first-hand.
 
I heartily disagree with the idea that God has(or had) a hand in physical union of bodies in sex when that sometimes is good and other times it is illicit. Does God have a hand in that which is prohibited? What still baffles the scientists today is the joining of egg and sperm and creating life. I believe too much has been overly spiritualized in the sexual union and too little in the miracle of life. God joins the two parts into ONE FLESH whereas man's insatiable greed demolishes a single life in the preborn and newly born life. If every aspect of life must be explained by scripture then we have lost the miracle. Flesh means flesh, period. I am confounded by the idolatry of the sexual union and then to spiritualize it. You may scream "oh God" when you orgasm but that is not proof that God was involved and then in a few minutes God is NOT involved when you pull out. Don't ignore the cultural aspect of dividing assunder, it is child sacrifice. The practice of spiritualizing everything has spawned many heresy. Matt 19 and mark 10 is your "proof text" for God's followers not to abort babies like the world does.
 
Maddog said:
I heartily disagree with the idea that God has(or had) a hand in physical union of bodies in sex when that sometimes is good and other times it is illicit. Does God have a hand in that which is prohibited? ……… God joins the two parts into ONE FLESH whereas man's insatiable greed demolishes a single life in the preborn and newly born life.
Click to expand...

This makes no sense of God can’t join people at one flesh because sometimes people are sinful, then he couldn’t join them at conception because that conception is the result of sex that is ostensibly sometimes forbidden. If you were right then for a time then Hagar would have been the wife and Sarah would have been the handmaiden.

Was Judah’s one flesh with his daughter in law valid because of the child? Lot and his daughters? Were all of the patriarchs who struggled with fertility living in adulterous sin until the womb was finally opened? Are couples who never have children not married? This idea just doesn’t work.

Besides, divorce would actually be an abortion if you were right. Divorce is the undoing of one flesh, if one flesh is a child then a valid divorce would be a “valid” abortion? It just doesn’t make sense.
 
The Revolting Man said:
This makes no sense of God can’t join people at one flesh because sometimes people are sinful, then he couldn’t join them at conception because that conception is the result of sex that is ostensibly sometimes forbidden. If you were right then for a time then Hagar would have been the wife and Sarah would have been the handmaiden.

Was Judah’s one flesh with his daughter in law valid because of the child? Lot and his daughters? Were all of the patriarchs who struggled with fertility living in adulterous sin until the womb was finally opened? Are couples who never have children not married? This idea just doesn’t work.

Besides, divorce would actually be an abortion if you were right. Divorce is the undoing of one flesh, if one flesh is a child then a valid divorce would be a “valid” abortion? It just doesn’t make sense.
Click to expand...

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

From your statement, it appears that you are deriving your position from these verses. Please clarify if that is an incorrect assumption.

But, dealing with these scriptures, I see verse 6 as saying that men should not put asunder what God has joined together. That seems simple enough.

But, what in verse 5 means joining together? Look at the Greek behind the words and you will note that the word "cleave" means join or adhere as in gluing together.

G4347
προσκολλάω
proskollaō
pros-kol-lay'-o
From G4314 and G2853; to glue to, that is, (figuratively) to adhere: - cleave, join (self).

It is after this joining together that we see the one flesh being mentioned. So, this is the joining that God is involved in.


In verse 6, the words "joined together" means the yoking... Strongs - G4801

G4801
συζεύγνυμι
suzeugnumi
sood-zyoog'-noo-mee
From G4862 and the base of G2201; to yoke together, that is, (figuratively) conjoin (in marriage): - join together.

Where else do we see this in scripture?

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

So, the two, yoked together, pull together and when they are echad, or in unity, then they pull well together.
We see this principle in scripture in Yah's commands as well.

Deu 22:10 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.

The idea of being Yoked together is the joining...
The plowing can only happen after the joining..

Jdg 14:18 And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? and what is stronger than a lion? And he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.

This plowing was done with someone else's heifer. The joining together in that case was NOT done by God.
Someone stole his heifer and joined them together. This yoking was not honored by God.
Not to be crass but, then the plowing began.

In marriage, this plowing confirms the covenant. In adultery, this plowing confirms the sin.

I hope this sheds some light on the topic...
 
Man_in_the_Middle said:
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

From your statement, it appears that you are deriving your position from these verses. Please clarify if that is an incorrect assumption.

But, dealing with these scriptures, I see verse 6 as saying that men should not put asunder what God has joined together. That seems simple enough.

But, what in verse 5 means joining together? Look at the Greek behind the words and you will note that the word "cleave" means join or adhere as in gluing together.

G4347
προσκολλάω
proskollaō
pros-kol-lay'-o
From G4314 and G2853; to glue to, that is, (figuratively) to adhere: - cleave, join (self).

It is after this joining together that we see the one flesh being mentioned. So, this is the joining that God is involved in.


In verse 6, the words "joined together" means the yoking... Strongs - G4801

G4801
συζεύγνυμι
suzeugnumi
sood-zyoog'-noo-mee
From G4862 and the base of G2201; to yoke together, that is, (figuratively) conjoin (in marriage): - join together.

Where else do we see this in scripture?

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

So, the two, yoked together, pull together and when they are echad, or in unity, then they pull well together.
We see this principle in scripture in Yah's commands as well.

Deu 22:10 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.

The idea of being Yoked together is the joining...
The plowing can only happen after the joining..

Jdg 14:18 And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? and what is stronger than a lion? And he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.

This plowing was done with someone else's heifer. The joining together in that case was NOT done by God.
Someone stole his heifer and joined them together. This yoking was not honored by God.
Not to be crass but, then the plowing began.

In marriage, this plowing confirms the covenant. In adultery, this plowing confirms the sin.

I hope this sheds some light on the topic...
Click to expand...
I’m sorry but I’m not sure what you’re responding to or what you’re advocating for. Can you clarify?
 
To the sex = one flesh = marriage crowd

If a man other than me has sex with my wife, is he married to her? Yes or no.

If no, then one flesh does not always equal marriage.

Don’t tell me there are exceptions. It’s a yes or no question.
 
NBTX11 said:
To the sex = one flesh = marriage crowd

If a man other than me has sex with my wife, is he married to her? Yes or no.

If no, then one flesh does not always equal marriage.

Don’t tell me there are exceptions. It’s a yes or no question.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry but I know you know this topic better than this. Your whole phrasing here is skewed.

First off, you know that what you described is adultery. Also, if you’ve paid attention at all you will know that not even I claim that sex always equals one flesh. Sometimes it equals death.

On top of all that, you also know that I know that you know that “marriage” isn’t a biblical concept. It’s not a biblical word and it’s not defined or described in scripture.

So nothing about this challenge you’ve issued is valid. You didn’t accurately represent the argument. You purposely ignored the unavoidable reality of adultery and then you put forth the traditions of men(so called marriage) in place or what God actually describes, one flesh.

You should rephrase this whole thing but even if we ignored all of the fatal flaws in the challenge it still fails. Just because something isn’t always something doesn’t mean it’s never that thing. Your claim that sex has to always be one flesh or it can never be one flesh is silly on its face.
 
The Revolting Man said:
On top of all that, you also know that I know that you know that “marriage” isn’t a biblical concept. It’s not a biblical word and it’s not defined or described in scripture.
Click to expand...
Exo_21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Psa_78:63 The fire consumed their young men; and their maidens were not given to marriage.
Mat_22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat_22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat_22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat_24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat_25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Luk_17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk_20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk_20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Joh_2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh_2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
1Co_7:38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
Heb_13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Rev_19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev_19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
18 verses found, 19 matches
 
Man_in_the_Middle said:
Exo_21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Psa_78:63 The fire consumed their young men; and their maidens were not given to marriage.
Mat_22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat_22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat_22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat_24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat_25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Luk_17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk_20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk_20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Joh_2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh_2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
1Co_7:38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
Heb_13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Rev_19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev_19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
18 verses found, 19 matches
Click to expand...
Oh man are you about to be embarrassed, do you want me to do it or do you want someone else to do the honors? I’ll do it quicker and more humanely but it might be less painful coming from someone else…..
 
Man_in_the_Middle said:
Exo_21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Psa_78:63 The fire consumed their young men; and their maidens were not given to marriage.
Mat_22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat_22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat_22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat_24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat_25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Luk_17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk_20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk_20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Joh_2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh_2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
1Co_7:38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
Heb_13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Rev_19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev_19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
18 verses found, 19 matches
Click to expand...
Nah I’m kidding! Of course I’ll do it. I love this stuff!

I didn’t have time to go back and check all of those references (again) but I did a spot check to refresh my understanding and while the English word “marriage” gets inserted into those verses it is not the word used in the Greek. It’s usually some euphemism for sex. Or cohabitation. I think there are two or three instance in all of scripture where a word akin to marry or marriage gets used and only one of them is not something “marriage bed” or “marriage supper”.

I know thats going to be hard to take. You’re not the first man tripped up by a translation though. It happens a lot.

Check the lexicon I. Your very first reference. The word you’re reading as “marriage” is “ownah” and it means season, time or duty. It’s a euphemism for sex that English translators sometimes (but not even all the times) translate as marriage. Huh; I wonder why?
 
Revelation 19:9 is an example of there being a word close to “marriage” but it’s still not the same. The word used there is “gamos”. It’s better understood as wedding. And it’s just a way to signify what kind of feast is being had.

You can’t just slot English words into scripture.
 
Man_in_the_Middle said:
Exo_21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Psa_78:63 The fire consumed their young men; and their maidens were not given to marriage.
Mat_22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat_22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat_22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat_24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat_25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Luk_17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk_20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk_20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Joh_2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh_2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
1Co_7:38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
Heb_13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Rev_19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev_19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
18 verses found, 19 matches
Click to expand...
Mark 12:25 is going to be the closest to what you’re wanting it to be but even that, “gamiska”, is still describing an action of taking a wife, basically it’s still wedding. It’s not a state of “being married”.

And that’s your best case. So yes, there is a word for wedding, and there is a concept of a wedding. But there isn’t a word for “marriage” nor is there a concept of marriage.
 
Man_in_the_Middle said:
Exo_21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Psa_78:63 The fire consumed their young men; and their maidens were not given to marriage.
Mat_22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat_22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat_22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat_24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat_25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Luk_17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk_20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk_20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Joh_2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh_2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
1Co_7:38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
Heb_13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Rev_19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev_19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
18 verses found, 19 matches
Click to expand...
Some of these are laughably bad. Psalms 78:63 isn’t even wedding, it’s to boast.

Look, I know thats going was neither quick or humane but this is pretty basic information around here. You should know this already. It’s like the second or third thing most men learn when they start studying this stuff out. We have translations. Sometimes we need to look into the word choice the translators make.
 
The Revolting Man said:
Oh man are you about to be embarrassed, do you want me to do it or do you want someone else to do the honors? I’ll do it quicker and more humanely but it might be less painful coming from someone else…..
Click to expand...
There is no embarrassment required for what I shared. You had indicated that the word marriage does not exist in the bible nor is it a biblical concept. That is factually untrue and I presumed that you had not seen these verses so I shared them. You did not say that where the bible mentioned marriage, the translators got it wrong.
The word "marriage" is an english word and therefore it will only be in translated versions of the bible. That does not mean that the word/concept of marriage is not in the bible. You chose to use an english word in your claim that it did not exist in the bible. I presumed you meant an english translation.

And I happily argue that the translators did not get it wrong. Your attempts to make a marriage all about sex confuses the issue. For example, when the bible speaks about marriage in Exodus 21:10, it is speaking about conjugal rights. Not simply sex but the right to sex based on their marital status.

Btw, even if I were wrong about something, why would I be embarrassed? People get things wrong all the time and I realize that I also get things wrong. I am not claiming perfection so there is no pedestal under me that you are knocking me off of.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top