Prostitution vs adultery

[Jason Cook]

It may be safer than marrying a woman who have unjustly divorced her husband. This may be true because in God's eyes she still belongs to her alive husband.

I absolutely agree. A repentant prostitute is preferable in every way to a lying, dishonest whore.

 

[Mark C]

...It is not an attack! I am having a calm discussion trying to tease out the nuances of a situation. You perceive it as an attack, become defensive, and under those circumstances no rational discussion is possible.

Excellent point.

This is indeed a good summary of your claims:

My views are very clear and have been clearly stated frequently, but to recap:
- All sex creates one flesh
- One flesh is, exactly as the words literally means, something physical. An actual physical change in the flesh. It is not something we can break, it is a permanent physical state.

I'm not sure that I agree, in the sense that the proof is perhaps "nebulous." Are you implying -- as some have -- the belief that DNA changes (for example) occur during intercourse? Or is there more? Or something different.

The 'psychological' change in women, I contend, is clear.

- We are only to become one flesh with our own women. Women we have an agreement with (and with her father as appropriate) that she is exclusively ours.
- Becoming one flesh with an available woman without such an agreement creates an obligation to make one.
- Becoming one flesh with a prostitute is an abomination.
- Becoming one flesh with a woman who belongs to another man is a sin worthy of death.
- Death alone dissolves one flesh, because it is physical, and death destroys the body.

OK, I have no problem, in general, with that part of the list.

- Any statement that one flesh can be dissolved by decision of man, or by becoming one flesh with another person, is to spiritualise it and deny its physical reality, inventing a new concept and applying the label of "one flesh" to it.

Here I have a question regarding your terminology. Obviously you distinguish what you call "one flesh," with "marriage" - whatever the heck that means. I contend that it (marriage) involves Covenant, following offer and acceptance, and then 'consummation' in a physical act.

Whatever 'psychosexual/spiritual/DNA' changes then follow - even if 'irreversible' - may survive the dissolution of said 'marriage' (as per Deut. 24:1-3) - but are not identical WITH the 'marriage' itself; just a consequence that the subsequent "divorcee" takes with her, even if she "becomes another man's isha."

Agreed? Or is there another element?

 

[Mark C]

This is put in a separate comment, because I see it as a different issue:

Any statement that one flesh can be dissolved by decision of man, or by becoming one flesh with another person, is to spiritualise it and deny its physical reality, inventing a new concept and applying the label of "one flesh" to it.

OK. So, gotta ask.

I contend (obviously) that a man who has more than one wife becomes "one flesh" with each of them. I see how that would have clear physical manifestation, in, for example, progeny. But:

I prefer the understanding that we are to, as a family, under my headship, and ultimately His, seek to become "echad," in Him. That, undeniably, has a "spiritualized" aspect that I do not deny, and indeed, joyfully accept.

But I not sure how it fits your model.

 

[The Revolting Man]

For those who still don't get it:



Duh, and double duh. They were betrothed, she was committed to Yitzak, even though they had never met; had any other man slept with her it would have been adultery.

But, as I have said, and you seem to have denied until now, the precedent is in the final verse, and describes PRECISELY what you previously claimed you couldn't see, and pretended not to see as 'precedent': (and I contend the SEQUENCE is important)

And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took [laqach] Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.

The Covenant, arranged by the un-named 'good and faithful servant,' in the name of Abraham, which was offered and accepted (thus betrothal) was consummated, and the result was a marriage. The first described in such detail in the Book.

And the word "one flesh" never appears. So what? You won't find a better precedent for it, and succinct summary of the process, than v. 67.


It's so "eye rollingly stupid" you should be ashamed for even being that idiotically blind to the point!!!

Is it JUST POSSIBLE that YHVH Himself can teach more than one principle in a single story?

Like:

- what a 'good and faithful servant' looks like. (Is there a reason He never names that servant in the whole story???)
- what 'offer and acceptance' in a marriage look like. IMMEDIATELY AFTER He just showed us what "offer and acceptance" look like in a land contract, and the "first recorded deed" in human history (the cave of Macpelah.)
- what 'agency' (power of attorney) is. What it means to "come in the name of" a principal; in this case, Abraham, to effect a contract.
- what makes a 'marriage'

and even subtle things, like - did Rivkah have a choice? Absolutely - and this precedent makes it clear. She not only 'accepted,' she confirmed it by deed, first when she got on the camel and left her home, then when she consummated the marriage. No one forced her to come.

This story is so important, so central, and teaches SO many fundamental principles that are literally CENTRAL to the entirety of "English Common Law" that I have trouble wrapping my head around the level of ignorance it takes to deny what it is teaching.




Do what you want. I can't make the blind see. But if you ignore His stories, His parables, you have a pretty pitiful grasp of Scripture.

So, why then did you make this asinine claim?


Yeah, which is it? (I don't care - that was rhetorical. I think you just make it up to suit your ego, and deny it when it doesn't.)

So you’re just running wild in this thread claiming the opposite of whatever else anyone is law says? You as usual will not a firm stand on anything? You will just claim that everything is everything and anything? As long as you can sneer at someone and wonder they’re not as smart as you?

If Isaac and Rebecca’s marriage started at the tent after he took her then nothing that happened before that is indicative of anything pertaining to the formation of the marriage.

I do care how often you accuse me of being a willfully stupid, blind Nazi; if the marriage began and “her took her and she became his woman” then there was no need for the camels, the journey, the gifts, the servant, the brother (or the mother, she was a part of the negotiations too. Is that part normative? I bet you’ll deny to the heavens that the mother has a part to play even though in your perfect precedent she did) or even the veil; were necessary part of forming the marriage.

Rebecca became Isaac’s woman after he took her her. Everything else was just logistics.

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is something you have invented yourself and are adding to the Bible.

This is an attack and you know it.

 

[Mark C]

Crap. You are like talking to a rock.

Edit: OK, I stand corrected. A rock just listens.

 

[The Revolting Man]

It is not something we can break, it is a permanent physical state

That is untrue because you can lawfully move onto another one flesh while a previous one flesh is living. This would be the whole point of Christ teaching about divorce, as He expressly says when he ties one flesh to divorce. Samuel, I am begging you please stop being boring. One fl sh is in diametric opposition to divorce. What’s the point of a divorce if it’s not somehow effecting the one flesh? Why does God even bother to write such nonsensical gobbledygook and why would you waste time reading it if you think it’s that silly?

Women we have an agreement with (and with her father as appropriate) that she is exclusively ours.

Where is this in scripture?!?!? Is this something you’re adding? Otherwise surely you have some scripture to back it up?

Becoming one flesh with an available woman without such an agreement creates an obligation to make one.

And where is this in scripture? Is this something f else you’ve added!?!?

Any statement that one flesh can be dissolved by decision of man, or by becoming one flesh with another person, is to spiritualise it and deny its physical reality, inventing a new concept and applying the label of "one flesh" to it.

It is spiritual. Are you implying that sex is a purely physical act with no spiritual significance? I know you don’t believe that but that’s what you’re saying.

I'm just reading the exact same verses completely literally, recognizing that "flesh" is a word that truly means "flesh".

No you’re not. You have absolutely added every element of what you’ve claimed here and you know you have. Those things are not in the verses that I’ve quoted and debated ad nauseum now.

Now you have made a very interesting claim with the idea that “flesh” just means flesh and nothing more. It’s a claim you contradict by saying that it’s a permanent state that persists even after the physical act itself has ceased, if it was just flesh then the one flesh would absolutely end when the sex act ended. But intellectual consistency had never been a factor in this debate.

But let’s set that aside, how is that not a version of the gnostic hersies? You’ve completely separated spirit from flesh. That can’t be accurate. You can’t be claiming that. Are you?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Crap. You are like talking to a rock.

Edit: OK, I stand corrected. A rock just listens.

Mark you don’t say anything. There’s nothing to listen to. You just talk. You never take a stand. You never make declarative statements. You can’t just say; “I believe a marriage is a process that begins with a negotiation between a man and his prospective father in law and that is finalized when the man completes the contract and has sex with his wife. I believe this because a Christ denier told me that it’s demonstrated in the story or Isaac and Rebecca.”

How hard is that? I did it in two sentences. Why do you have to subject everyone to thousands of words dripping with scorn and never actually make the case? You do nothing but hint and infer and suggest but only if you can insult someone.

Your idea is wrong. It’s silly; which is why you do everything you can obscure your belief. You know how vulnerable it is and being contradicted terrifies you.

So, now that your stance has finally, succinctly and clearly been laid out for the first time ever, you’re welcome, would you like to defend it or would you prefer to slink off sulkingly?

 

[Mark C]

I said you aren't worth talking to, and you demonstrated why. I don't need to write anything anyway, you make it up, and then pat yourself on the back for your hubris.

Anybody actually interested in the topic has plenty to read.

Edit:

You never make declarative statements.

There are a number directly above. Here's another one: You aren't worth wasting keystrokes on.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I said you aren't worth talking to, and you demonstrated why. I don't need to write anything anyway, you make it up, and then pat yourself on the back for your hubris.

Anybody actually interested in the topic has plenty to read.

Edit:

There are a number directly above. Here's another one: You aren't worth wasting keystrokes on.

So you choose slink off sulkingly?