Morality, Competetion Boundaries, and Unbetrothed Women. May the best man win.

[BiblicalLiteralist]

I got another fun one here...The boundary for adultery is set at betrothal, what is the difference between a dating woman and a woman with a boyfriend? Is any unbetrothed woman open game? Should any woman who is not betrothed be considered single? What is the difference between two men trying to court the same single woman when she has yet to chose a suitor, and a man who is a better suitor who comes in post relationship but pre betrothral? What about a sexually active woman in a long term relationship who has not been asked for marriage?

This is speaking strictly from a moral boundary perspective, ignoring the personality red flags of secular participation in a scenario like this. If we need an example let's say a secular woman with a long term boyfriend who becomes a believer during their relationship, which then crosses paths with another believer, who wants to give her the marital commitment she has not received from secular boyfriend.

 

[NVIII]

This is a bit like asking if a burka should be worn with or without the visor. The question is DOA because you are asking about the etiquette of the finer points of an abomination.

But there is an answer. Just as the visor of a burka should be considered pointless and immaterial to us who are not in chains to that deception, so should any "boyfriends". They are nothing. The entire concept is illegitimate. A girl cannot belong to him who does not own her.

This thread dips into that a little bit at about the halfway point and discusses why you still might want to pay attention to how others perceive it: https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/...omeone-you-are-not-really-interested-in.16930

Of course it gets more complicated when you break the sexual intercourse barrier, but that discussion is elsewhere.

 

[steve]

I don’t date, the woman either wants to walk my walk or she doesn’t.

Edit: I have met as friends a couple of times, but never considered it a date.

 

[MeganC]

Is any unbetrothed woman open game?

"Any"?

 

[steve]

"Any"?

View attachment 6129

It’s a sure bet that she doesn’t want to walk my walk

 

[The Revolting Man]

It’s a sure bet that she doesn’t want to walk my walk

Oh I bet she walks just like you do….

 

[NBTX11]

so should any "boyfriends". They are nothing.

So should every man disregard the concept of women in long term relationships and pursue them anyways? Let’s say the woman has been dating a man for two years, and are expected and likely will become betrothed soon. Are they open to be pursued for marriage, and should they be?

 

[NVIII]

So should every man disregard the concept of women in long term relationships and pursue them anyways? Let’s say the woman has been dating a man for two years, and are expected and likely will become betrothed soon. Are they open to be pursued for marriage, and should they be?

Should and may are not the same things.

you still might want to pay attention to how others perceive it

The truth may set us free, but be wise.

 

[steve]

So should every man disregard the concept of women in long term relationships and pursue them anyways?

If he prefers failure instead of success, that would seem a good plan.

 

[MemeFan]

I got another fun one here...The boundary for adultery is set at betrothal, what is the difference between a dating woman and a woman with a boyfriend? Is any unbetrothed woman open game? Should any woman who is not betrothed be considered single? What is the difference between two men trying to court the same single woman when she has yet to chose a suitor, and a man who is a better suitor who comes in post relationship but pre betrothral? What about a sexually active woman in a long term relationship who has not been asked for marriage?

This is speaking strictly from a moral boundary perspective, ignoring the personality red flags of secular participation in a scenario like this. If we need an example let's say a secular woman with a long term boyfriend who becomes a believer during their relationship, which then crosses paths with another believer, who wants to give her the marital commitment she has not received from secular boyfriend.

Women in modern times do lease their body to men for trial period before asking for more.

If "boyfriend" is OK when somebody else try to get his girl, he either doesn't care about her or he isn't masculine. If he is right in head, you risk your life. Find better way to risk your life for more virtuous pursuits.

And sometimes boyfriend/girlfriend relationshiop is actually de facto non-state recognized marriage. Strange for group who doesn't accept state supremancy of marriage not to recognise this.

 

[FollowingHim]

What about a sexually active woman in a long term relationship who has not been asked for marriage?

She's married. She just mightn't realise it.

 

[crsivils]

[Original post]

An interesting question/situation that I would have no hope of ever dealing with, nor any desire to do so... but, I would assume it all depends on what the mentioned "boyfriend" thinks when he is confronted with the true terms of a biblical marriage. If he says anything along the lines of "screw that!", then I would imagine the woman is fair game. Otherwise, perhaps some mentoring of the man would be in order, rather than just running away with his potential bride? Just a thought...

 

[KarenJeanLovesYHWH]

I got another fun one here...The boundary for adultery is set at betrothal, what is the difference between a dating woman and a woman with a boyfriend? Is any unbetrothed woman open game? Should any woman who is not betrothed be considered single? What is the difference between two men trying to court the same single woman when she has yet to chose a suitor, and a man who is a better suitor who comes in post relationship but pre betrothral? What about a sexually active woman in a long term relationship who has not been asked for marriage?

This is speaking strictly from a moral boundary perspective, ignoring the personality red flags of secular participation in a scenario like this. If we need an example let's say a secular woman with a long term boyfriend who becomes a believer during their relationship, which then crosses paths with another believer, who wants to give her the marital commitment she has not received from secular boyfriend

If a secular woman has been in a secular relationship and then comes to Truth, it would be honorable for a Righteous man to rescue her from her demonic captivity and bring her into a righteous betrothal, even if she is “engaged to be married” or betrothed. I would even consider the possibility of her technically being a war bride, hence this war isn’t of flesh and blood but of Spirit. That being said if we look at the way brides in Deuteronomy it doesn’t say “but if she is married she is not available for your take”. These women were married and YHWHs men killed their husbands. So according to Torah, it’s okay to murder their husbands and take them as wives. Not to say it’s okay to go around killing pagan men and taking their wives I’m simply pointing out the legality of the matter.

I also firmly believe that any woman in Truth who is not officially betrothed to be married is fair game yet but if she is officially engaged to be married she is then off limits.

As a single woman, I find it legal and morally acceptable to be speaking to several potentials at the same time with courting being the understanding. Not until I am officially betrothed to marry will I then cease communication with other prospectives. Reason being if I try to vet one person or one couple at a time it would take a very long time that I’m not willing to give.

 

[MeganC]

Reason being if I try to vet one person or one couple at a time it would take a very long time that I’m not willing to give.

That about describes my experience from 2008 when I started looking at this life. I probably should have been more patient, understanding, careful, and cautious but I'd made my mind up and thought I knew what I wanted.

 

[Ruth Elizabeth]

Am I misunderstanding? You are using betrothed as fianced right? I never heard of the boundary of adultery being betrothal. That is not a given to me.
Unless you are being immoral and fornicating, even if you are betrothed I think you are still fare game. There is nothing immoral about two men pursuing a moral girl. None. Not every girl accepts a proposal actually loving the guy. I knew a guy who invited all of his family and his dying grandma to his surprise proposal. Most girls couldn't say no if they wanted to at that point!
However I think the greatest issue here is dependent upon whether the man or woman are good or not.
Honestly, I think divorce should only be a worst case scenario. Worst case being things like adultery and physical abuse. (I hate how people think of it as an option, you should never go into a relationship thinking divorce is an option. In my opinion you are going into a relationship already contemplating divorce, either re-evaluate your ideas of a relationship or don't get into it.)
But personally I believe that it is far better to repent and not marry an evil man you have been sleeping with than to follow the usual Christian practice of marrying them. If both parties want to repent and try to live better lives then they are probably better off marrying one another. But if he's anything like my best friends spawn of satan boyfriend, or her ex who punched walls so he didn't hit her... Sigh... Some girls just... just have no sense. I love her to death but yeah I did try to convince her out of marrying her boyfriend.

 

[NickF]

Am I misunderstanding? You are using betrothed as fianced right?

That’s right, some people regard engagement as a non-permanent thing. Others regard it as betrothal and the woman is just as off limits as if she were married.

I never heard of the boundary of adultery being betrothal. That is not a given to me.

Deuteronomy 22:23-27 KJVS
[23] If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; [24] Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. [25] But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: [26] But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: [27] For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. …

Scripturally speaking betrothal is the point at which ownership transfers from the father to the new husband. She belongs to the husband even though she’s still a virgin and their marriage has not been consummated. Scripture calls her the wife of the husband upon betrothal. I’m betrothed to Jesus, the wedding has not occurred but I belong to Him, he’s my master and I’m under his protection, provision, and control. In the same way all through scripture that same relationship is modeled. Adultery is only ever defined as being with a married woman breaking wedlock. A married man can only commit adultery with a woman married to someone else. A single woman with no husband can not commit adultery with a married man. Again, using the scriptural definition, not western culture’s definition.

Unless you are being immoral and fornicating, even if you are betrothed I think you are still fare game. There is nothing immoral about two men pursuing a moral girl. None.

I disagree only on the betrothal part. Because I define betrothal using the scriptural definition. If I’ve betrothed a woman to me, she’s mine. No other men are permitted to be in a relationship with her. If she pursues relationships with other men, looking for a better husband, to me it’s no different than my wife doing the same.

Take the betrothal out of the equation and I agree with you. A single woman, unmarried and not betrothed/engaged/promised to a husband is free to pursue relationships with as many men as she likes in order to vet the men and determine which one would be the best husband.

Not every girl accepts a proposal actually loving the guy. I knew a guy who invited all of his family and his dying grandma to his surprise proposal. Most girls couldn't say no if they wanted to at that point!

Seems underhanded or foolish of the young man but that’s my personal opinion.

However I think the greatest issue here is dependent upon whether the man or woman are good or not.
Honestly, I think divorce should only be a worst case scenario.

Agreed. And the only acceptable reasons are the scriptural ones.

In my opinion you are going into a relationship already contemplating divorce, either re-evaluate your ideas of a relationship or don't get into it.)

100%

But personally I believe that it is far better to repent and not marry an evil man you have been sleeping with than to follow the usual Christian practice of marrying them.

Agreed! You’ll find a lot of people here would disagree with either of us on that point. There’s a surprising number of people who actually think sex is what makes people married. Doesn’t make sense to me according to scripture. But yeah, if a woman has been sleeping with a man who doesn’t want to marry her, she’s committing whoredom and should repent, stop, and never do it again. Sex should be within the bounds of a marriage covenant.

If both parties want to repent and try to live better lives then they are probably better off marrying one another. But if he's anything like my best friends spawn of satan boyfriend, or her ex who punched walls so he didn't hit her... Sigh... Some girls just... just have no sense. I love her to death but yeah I did try to convince her out of marrying her boyfriend.

That’s why I think it’s wise for young women to ask their fathers to help them choose a good man.

 

[NickF]

If a secular woman has been in a secular relationship and then comes to Truth, it would be honorable for a Righteous man to rescue her from her demonic captivity and bring her into a righteous betrothal, even if she is “engaged to be married” or betrothed.

This is unscriptural and frankly one of my biggest problems with the Torah Keeper movement. I’ve read this same thing being taught and never corrected or spoken against in Torah groups I was a part of.

I would even consider the possibility of her technically being a war bride, hence this war isn’t of flesh and blood but of Spirit. That being said if we look at the way brides in Deuteronomy it doesn’t say “but if she is married she is not available for your take”. These women were married and YHWHs men killed their husbands. So according to Torah, it’s okay to murder their husbands and take them as wives. Not to say it’s okay to go around killing pagan men and taking their wives I’m simply pointing out the legality of the matter.

Lots of Torah Keeping men say exactly that. Since it’s ok to take a war bride, it’s ok to steal a goyim man’s daughter or kill him to take his wife. Honestly I’m surprised more people don’t speak up about the wrongness of this attitude. The Deuteronomy passage is about unmarried women. Otherwise the man would be committing adultery. That line of logic is a very slippery one that has led some TK men to hold the belief that all those who aren’t obeying the Torah like they do are outsiders, not brothers, and they are permitted to do just about anything. Be very careful with this war bride and outsider mentality.

I also firmly believe that any woman in Truth who is not officially betrothed to be married is fair game yet but if she is officially engaged to be married she is then off limits.

This double standard is puzzling. Why is a Torah Keeping betrothed woman off limits but a goyim/pagan/outsider is fair game? That slippery slope is dangerous.

As a single woman, I find it legal and morally acceptable to be speaking to several potentials at the same time with courting being the understanding. Not until I am officially betrothed to marry will I then cease communication with other prospectives. Reason being if I try to vet one person or one couple at a time it would take a very long time that I’m not willing to give.

100% agree on this portion.

I cannot condone the detestable attitude that Torah Keeping men are at liberty to steal a daughter or engaged woman from a father simply because the man is regarded as an outsider (non Torah Keeper). Or that TK women are to be treated any differently than non-TK women.

 

[windblown]

or her ex who punched walls so he didn't hit her....

doesn’t sound too crazy awful

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is unscriptural and frankly one of my biggest problems with the Torah Keeper movement. I’ve read this same thing being taught and never corrected or spoken against in Torah groups I was a part of.

Lots of Torah Keeping men say exactly that. Since it’s ok to take a war bride, it’s ok to steal a goyim man’s daughter or kill him to take his wife. Honestly I’m surprised more people don’t speak up about the wrongness of this attitude. The Deuteronomy passage is about unmarried women. Otherwise the man would be committing adultery. That line of logic is a very slippery one that has led some TK men to hold the belief that all those who aren’t obeying the Torah like they do are outsiders, not brothers, and they are permitted to do just about anything. Be very careful with this war bride and outsider mentality.

This double standard is puzzling. Why is a Torah Keeping betrothed woman off limits but a goyim/pagan/outsider is fair game? That slippery slope is dangerous.

100% agree on this portion.

I cannot condone the detestable attitude that Torah Keeping men are at liberty to steal a daughter or engaged woman from a father simply because the man is regarded as an outsider (non Torah Keeper). Or that TK women are to be treated any differently than non-TK women.

You’ve made a mistake in your criticism of this post. Where the OP uses “Truth” you’re substituting in “Torah.” Its leading you to draw some assumptions and that may not reflect the OP’s position.

For instance, you suggest that she claims that believing women not in “Torah” would not be in “Truth” and so would receive a different kind of treatment. That is not at all clear to me from what she wrote.

 

[NickF]

You’ve made a mistake in your criticism of this post. Where the OP uses “Truth” you’re substituting in “Torah.” Its leading you to draw some assumptions and that may not reflect the OP’s position.

For instance, you suggest that she claims that believing women not in “Torah” would not be in “Truth” and so would receive a different kind of treatment. That is not at all clear to me from what she wrote.

The language is normative from my time in Torah groups, that's what I'm basing my interpretation on. If not, then I stand corrected. It's a fair and reasonable assumption to make though.

If a secular woman has been in a secular relationship and then comes to Truth, it would be honorable for a Righteous man to rescue her from her demonic captivity and bring her into a righteous betrothal, even if she is “engaged to be married” or betrothed.

Secular woman who is betrothed is fair game to "rescue". The subsequent war bride comparison was drawn. Inference is not peaceful but war.

I also firmly believe that any woman in Truth who is not officially betrothed to be married is fair game yet but if she is officially engaged to be married she is then off limits.

Woman "in Truth" who is engaged is off limits. This is clearly what she wrote and is an obvious comparison.

It is clear that there is a double standard, one for betrothed secular women, and another standard for treatment of betrothed women "in Truth". The Truth is easily presumed to be observance of Torah, it's entirely dense and obtuse to suggest she's talking about Rastafarians or Scientology.

But we can wait for her to let us know if the Truth is keeping Torah or if that also includes the goyim who do not.

My point was that the doctrinal slope was a slippery and dangerous one. It's one I've seen men in Torah groups slide down to where they claim a greater affinity with Muslims than with Christen"dumb" or our perennial favorite the "whore church". And to be careful to avoid such pits.