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Legalizing Polygamy

"With all due respect to Scarecrow, I would give a slightly different view on this."

You don't have to worry about offending me. I agree with your statements. I answered that way because the question itself seemed to be of the nature of "How can one person attack the system" type of question. I have to give Hugh credit because he was the first person I saw explaining this type of approach to the situation and listed the states he felt would be the best to try it in. This may end up being one prong of a multi-prong approach to the issue.
 
itainteasy said:
"Back when a thing called the "Constitution for these united States" still applied, free people had the Right to "free association". The Right of truly "private" contract was guaranteed, but not "granted", by the Constitution."

Very good as usual Mark. What you mean by not "granted" is that you need to earn the thing you want to associate about right? In other words the government is not the one to create the "permission" for you to assocaite and then tell you who to do it with. I hope I am understanding properly. Elaborate.

The key is that "Rights" (according to the Declaration, the basis for what follows) come from the Creator, not from ANY government on earth. And, since they come from YHVH and NOT man, they cannot be taken away. Indeed, the purpose of government is "to secure these Rights". And, when any government fails to honor that understanding, it is the Right of people to "alter or abolish it".

Thus, when someone says that the First Amendment "grants" such-and-such, or that free people need permission to travel, worship, protect their family, marry, or associate with one another...THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Vital exception: Slaves don't have Rights. And neither do those who "make a deal with the Devil", trade their "essential liberties for a little temporary security", or sell their "God-given Rights" in exchange for a "social safety net". Scripture is clear. Be very careful what vows we make, and make VERY sure you know Who you serve...because you cannot serve two masters.

Rest assured the "prince of this world", and his "Big Brother" minions, understand this VERY well!

EVERY question, I contend, of what happened to a formerly free people, who no longer have a "Bill of Rights", but don't have a CLUE why, can be understood on that basis. But most people do NOT want to hear it. And they read Scripture the same way they do the Constitution.
 
Thank you so much for that Mark!

here is an interesting video where Ron Paul says essentialy the same thing I was. I definitely am NOT endorsing him as a candidate or anything but I think he's got the freedom idea down really well! I am not the only crazy apparently and liking people or not liking anybody has nothing to do with any of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvbJBHhqftc
 
Thanks for the link, Maria. Dr. Paul was one of my most frequent, and certainly favorite, guests when I did my original radio show. I used to remark frequently that he would have accomplished more by merely being the nominee, and thus hard for the media to muzzle and ignore, than any of the other candidates would by winning. The "Patriot Act" proved the point.

It was refreshing to see him short-circuit the attempt to demonize him for actually believing in the principles of liberty, and even point out part of the "rest of the story", like "Jim Crow laws".

We are on the brink of totalitarianism today because people won't read the law, but instead assume that the ONLY possible solution to most problems come from Washington, whether the Bill of Rights says otherwise or not. The truth is that a vast majority (90%+) of things now done at the federal level are grossly unconstitutional, from the Federal Reserve to the BATFE and TSA. Recognizing that (and focusing on the positive, rather than the negative) sets Dr. Paul apart.

To recognize the undeniable about the "Civil Rights Act" no more makes one a "racist" than not wanting to have your child microwaved or your wife groped at an airport (trains, next) makes one a "terrorist".
 
Mark C said:
To recognize the undeniable about the "Civil Rights Act" no more makes one a "racist" than not wanting to have your child microwaved or your wife groped at an airport (trains, next) makes one a "terrorist".

I'm considering learning to walk again. Maye even get a horse. Amish courting buggy for a convertible ... Let TSA grope the horse!
 
funny-pictures-i-propose-a-counter-argument-i-has-a-funny-600x450.jpg


Doc
 
Mark C said:
Vital exception: Slaves don't have Rights. "
Actually, according to scripture, it IS slaves who have "Rights." From Exodus 21:
If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing."
That's a "Right."
If a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money."
Another set of "Rights." The NASB, NKJV, RSV the NIV, the ESV and the Hebrew Names versions actually USE the word "Right."
If a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake."
More "Rights."

(An explanation. I've decided to experiment with "seeing" what Mark says again.)

The following is something I wrote in the semi-closed "debate" section of our forum:
First, a sort of preamble and disclaimer:

I have had an uneasy relationship with the the FLDS, which in the last two years has become more friendly as I have gotten to know them. Make no mistake, I do not regard the FLDS as remotely Christian. The LDS and their offshoots are not, if sincere, believers. It's as simple as that. Having said that they are a laboratory for polygyny as it interacts with the rest of this country. For the most part, they have tried to mind their own business and this is unsatisfactory to the busybodies on the outside. I have likened it to Lot in Sodom. The crowd outside simply doesn't want to leave well enough alone and demands conformity with what is going on outside the "Righteous Man's" house. They want in, they will not take "no" for an answer.

There are practical effects in polygyny that we must account for when trying to interact with society. One practical effect is that wives leave. In this country, when wives leave they usually take their children with them. They usually get them. Invasive courts then come calling and demand money of men, and they demand money in relationship to income. In other words you can't "out earn" the needs of a departing wife who has children. The courts see you as needing to provide a certain minimal amount of support, but after that, they see you as owing your departed wife (and her children) a lifestyle similar to yours, so your child support amount goes up with regard to how much you make. You have only to look at Antonio Cromartie (recently signed to a huge multi million dollar contract) to know that you can't out earn the needs of the mothers of your children. Cromartie has fathered 7 children with 6 women in 5 states.* It's important to know that THIS is how the rest of the world views us, as versions of Antonio Cromartie. Cromartie had to get a half million dollar advance on his 2010 salary with the New York Jets to clear up his child support obligations, which are geared to match his income, not his children's actual needs. He made $1.7 million last year. In his tax bracket, he probably paid half that in taxes (or more) and a half million in PAST due child support. I'm guessing after lawyers, Cromartie isn't living on much. When his NFL career runs out, the man is in deep trouble.

Back to the FLDS:
The San Angelo Standard-Times - Frederick Merril Jessop, owes about $170,000 in child support to a woman with whom he had eight children before she left the FLDS, the woman’s attorney said.

Natalie Malonis, representing Carolyn Jessop, said the decision for child support was reached in September, although the order had not been put in writing.

A hearing was held Thursday so that 51st District Judge Barbara Walther could sign the order and enforce the child support payments rather than wait for the signatures of the FLDS member’s attorneys.

'We made an oral agreement,' Malonis said about the September hearing. 'The next step was a written order.'

Malonis said that she wrote up the oral agreement in December but that she could not get the signature of the attorney for Frederick Merril Jessop.

'It’s important because without that written order, we can’t enforce the child support,' Malonis said."
Jessop has other children. He's being nailed for child support of $2350 a month and arrearages of $148,000. What does Natalie Malonis say will happen to Fred if he doesn't pay? That he is going to jail.

We are going to get legalized polygamy/polyamory. When it happens, it's going to be "democratic" in nature, not Biblical, provided of course we do not get in front of the issue and try to work it out. Right now, already, the leaving of a wife is a destructive event that I personally, didn't really survive. I have had no new children since that time. I have not owned a home. I am dominated by debts.

Cromartie and Jessop show us what happens when an informal polygyny blows up. In Cromartie's case it was just fornication that produced children, in Jessop's case, it was marriage with commitment on his part. In both cases the only solution is really to hide your money and leave the country or your life is effectively over.

Just imagine this. You have 3 wives. Two decide they are "Lesbian" and/or "bisexual." Believe me this can happen. You try to find the prohibition to lesbian behavior in the scriptures. It is not (at least), OBVIOUS in the Torah. It's there, but that's not the point. Two sinful women (all men and women are sinful) can take 6-8 children of yours, and enslave/imprison you in jealous money grubbing vengeance for the rest of your natural life. You can delete the "lesbian" or "bisexual" issues and one or two of your wives can still destroy you.

Your remaining wives and children are impoverished. You may never repay the debts.

This is why I say it must be legal. One reason is that it will be whether we participate in the process or not. In saying it must be legal, I'm saying what we do must be legal. There must be a place where we can approximate in a legal way, what it is that we do in a way that is closest to the Biblical fashion as possibe. We need to find a way to get in front of the issue and control the train wreck that is about to happen so that we survive.

If we ally with the "polyamory" crowd for legality, it's going to be an "egalitarian" vision that we get, and that will not work.

I propose the following is the best plan for us.

Go to court (best in a state or the district of Columbia) where same sex marriage is now legal by legislative act. There are reasons for this because of the declared purposes of the legislation. Get a polygyny declared legal by a court decision on the basis of those existing laws.

Be READY with "marriage contract" proposed legislation, so that when the state comes crying for a solution, you have one.

Get legislation passed that amounts to legalizing rather broad "religion friendly" prenups. In other words, if I and my adult wives wish to live in an arrangement where I "own" the marriage as a sort of business, and the custody of my children with them is predetermined in the agreement, then so be it. The state will want some equity in their views. For instance, if I am shown to be abusive to my children, they will want to break my prenup. They will want my wife to be able to "cash out" so that they don't put her on welfare roles (at least that will be the rationale). They will want "no fault" ability for any spouse to leave the "marriage."

What you're going to get is either more Jessop/Cromartie situations, or worse, if you don't get on the legalization train, and try to steer it, or at least, control the wreck that is coming.
* Now it is said that Cromartie has fathered at least nine children with eight women living in six states.
 
Hugh McBryde said:
Mark C wrote:Vital exception: Slaves don't have Rights. "

Actually, according to scripture, it IS slaves who have "Rights." From Exodus 21:

If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing."

That's a "Right."

Read it CAREFULLY, Hugh!


There is a BIG difference between a "slave" (as the nations treat them) and a "bondservant", the way YHVH says those who understand His torah ("instruction") are to behave. [The reason that some of us utterly REJECT the fallacy of "legalizing polygamy" is that VERY Scripture! You ignore the context. Any master who gives his servant a wife retains 'title' to not only the wife, but the progeny, as verse 3 and 4, which you skipped, make clear. Since we cannot "serve two masters", it is VERY important to choose carefully Who we serve! "As for me and my house", we will be "bondservants" of the One True King, rather than slaves of Caesar.]

And doesn't Amerika now believe in a 'living constitution' anyway, and that the "law has been done away with"? :( Certainly looks like it... And those who "don't know their Rights don't have any", any more than those who are willing to "trade essential Liberty for a little temporary security" do.

When the Indiana "Supreme Court" decided 3-2 last week to again trash the Bill of "Rights" (including what was once the 4th Amendment), they abrogated even the terms of the Magna Carta, dating back to 1215. Slaves in Amerika (Indiana, fer sure) now have less PRIVILEGES than a medieval serf, when it comes to resisting an unlawful entry into 'their' home.

I have NEVER denied that the Declaration once declared unanimously that certain Truths were "self-evident", and come straight from Scripture, besides. It's modern Amerika that has turned such Truth on its head, and increasingly - UNDENIABLY - denies the Written law. I pray that a few more of the Remnant will see that truth, and "t'shuvah" (return) to His "instruction"; come out of her" before the plagues destroy them.

My point has ALWAYS been - consistent with Scripture, and the Laws which were ONCE based on it (from much of English common law to the Constitution as written) - that those who practice, and teach, "lawlessness" will reap what they sow.

PS> For a real example of the principle... read this week's 'Torah portion' - Lev. 26-27. I just finished a Sabbath teaching on the topic (and will post a link on my website later). I believe the descent into a police state is one of several plagues, that are shortly going to be revealed to be "seven times" worse. (Lev. 26:15-21, etc)
 
Mark C said:
Read it CAREFULLY, Hugh!"
I did Mark. The word Nehemiah and Ezra use for "Slave" is "עבד `ebed." It's the same word as appears in Exodus 21. I'm not sure you understand the concept of slavery as the Israelites understood it. You see, this is why we haven't spoken in a while. I think you need to be more careful before launching into statements like "Read it CAREFULLY, Hugh!" You assume I haven't. I'm not reacting to you, this involved years of study on the subject, you simply touched on something I have already looked at from several angles.

For the record, let's look at how Nehemiah defines Slavery (עבד `ebed):
Behold, we are slaves (עבד `ebed) this day; in the land that you gave to our fathers to enjoy its fruit and its good gifts, behold, we are slaves (עבד `ebed). And its rich yield goes to the kings whom you have set over us because of our sins. They rule over our bodies and over our livestock as they please, and we are in great distress."
Ezra uses the term "עבד `ebed" in a similar way.
 
...You see, this is why we haven't spoken in a while...

The problem with comprehension is not in the Hebrew, it's in the English, and in the 'emotional baggage' of words like 'slavery'. MUCH more importantly, however, it is about Who we serve! And NOTHING in your "responses", Hugh, even so much as addresses that issue.

Do you really fail to see how there is a difference between the type of "slavery" (whatEVER word is used) described in Scripture as what SHOULD be done, and the kind of slavery implemented by men who ignore what is Written? Most in Amerika do, obviously, which is a big part of the reason I contend we are headed off that cliff again.

I'm not interested in arguing trivia with you, particularly when it is so far from both the thread topic, and has nothing to do with the point being made other than the obvious. . My admonition to, "Read it carefully," was hardly limited to Exodus -- it certainly applied to a post you claimed to have 'read' voluntarily. We still haven't "spoken" -- for reasons that just as clearly have not changed. Nor do I see any evidence here that it should.


For any others here besides Hugh:

Please don't ignore the important fact that Israel became slaves to cruel bondage "because of our sins"! And Ezra was hardly the only prophet to make the point, as Amerika will some day realize!



Note to webmaster: There is a bug in the "Topic Reply Notification" mailer. Neither of us should have received emails from this thread since May 15th.
 
Ummm ... sounds like this might need to head on back to the debate forum ...
 
LOL Cecil, where no one goes?
Mark C said:
The problem with comprehension is not in the Hebrew, it's in the English, and in the 'emotional baggage' of words like 'slavery'. MUCH more importantly, however, it is about Who we serve! And NOTHING in your "responses", Hugh, even so much as addresses that issue."
I don't know how to address it if you're going to hide behind English when the Hebrew is clear and Hebrew when the debate is in English. There are many kinds of slavery. The language of Exodus 21 uses the same word in each instance of slavery, essentially equating them. It's not my fault that we here in the west foolishly believe that because we are not chattel slaves for life, that we are not slaves. Property tax tribute, a feature always with us even in the post revolutionary United States, constituted slavery as far as the Egyptians were concerned in the time of Joseph and that view was still held by Nehemiah.

We are slaves by Nehemiah's definition. Slavery occupied a spectrum. Indentured servitude all the way down to chattel Slavery. Scripture defines SLAVES, not free men, as having RIGHTS. Free men simply did things and took responsibility for them and answered to God for them. They had no need of rights. Rights were necessary for those subject to others, as in slaves. Judges 17:
In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes."
Free men, for good or for ill.
 
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