Legalizing Christian Polygamy

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

get into trouble with this whole poly marriage.

Sure....but I would suggest you use the literal and precise biblical terms and not the Roman/State/Church terms. The term "marriage" is basically a copyrighted term or legally established term (created in the old to middle English era by the Roman-State Church) when used in its precise form. The precise biblical term is some type of union, relationship, covenant union, etc. Read over this article about the private sphere of relationships and see if this makes sense:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3011

Terms like "my man" and "my woman" or my "women or ladies" is the more biblical route (a return to a two word system), and it too respects the current legal systems and does not challenge them which could be seen as disrespect if we accept the idea they have the right to create a term, system, and then govern over it. There is a link forthcoming here as a resource on this. It was used as a biblical lecture at the July 4th retreat to discuss the history of the marriage system versus the biblical system of personal private unions and there is a difference. Any legal entity or person has the right to create a term and then to set the definition to it. In fact if you wanted to you could create a term, define it, go get a copyright for it, and then if someone used your term you could take legal action for copyright abuse. Basically in a sense that is the issue over using a public government term to what you really mean is a private biblical union. Getting those terms mixed up is or can be somewhat problematic at least for the moment in the culture. Legally people can cohabitate in the Lord by his Word and be in line both with the Lord and the government. But the issue of technical concern arises when you use public terms that were created and now still governed by the government.

You rightly mention the word trouble and as believers we are called to respect government and make honest attempts to follow the laws if at all possible. In this case it is really easy to do and it fits under the current Supreme Court Case Law that people can cohabitate together and do so legally in private consensual adult relations. The Bible supports the private relational approach as that was both the biblical and legal system in the 1st century church and thus using that system is not only safer but it is also most precise in its return to the ancient system instead of using modern systems.

 

[PolyPride]

This post is just to continue from my previous post (pg. 4, 2nd post on the page) regarding Dr. Ayala Pine's book on jealousy and some studies with swingers. Keep in mind, I'm not advocating for swinging behavior which is different than polygamy. I'm only advocating for gaining insight on how to deal with jealousy using swingers as an example which can show support for successful ways to overcome jealousy in polygamy or that its possible to get through jealousy even in multiple partner settings..


Quoting from the book, Romantic Jealousy: Causes, Symptoms, and Cures in a chapter on OPEN relationships..

Most people, especially those with a 'jealosuy problem' will probably find it inconceivable that people could allow their partners to have casual sex in their own homes with a stranger or acquaintance. But to swingers this is considered an acceptable form of social recreation, according to family expert Brian Gilmartin.

Gilmartin studied 100 swingers and compared them to non-swingers living in the same California neighborhood.

...Gilmartin comparison between swingers and non-swingers indicates that, like the Keristans, swingers seldom experience jealousy when their mates have sex with someone else.
...Swingers are not likely to respond with jealousy, even to this common trigger of jealousy, because they don't perceive it as a threat. In their own system of beliefs, sex with another person doesn't mean being unfaithful or untrue, it simply means having harmless fun.

Source:
Romantic Jealousy: Causes, Symptoms, and Cures by Dr. Ayala Malach Pines (a practicing clinical psychologist)... pg 144. Much of the book is on Google so you can read the page here.

Also what I found interesting was chapter 6 of the book regarding jealousy from a cross-cultural standpoint. In some regions of the world, it is almost like a ritual or a sign of hospitality to invite someone to have sex with your mate.. like in some Eskimo inhabited regions, in some parts of Africa, etc. These are sexual practices that would make the average person in WESTERN/mainstream culture drop to the floor; but nonetheless it's good to know about in showing how views on jealousy and what triggers it can be based on cultural/social standards, in part.

 

[Anonymous]

But to swingers this is considered an acceptable form of social recreation,

Polypride, do you think then that in light of this post, it is correct to say that if all parties to a polygynous marriage held the same values regarding marital associations there is a better chance of success? Also, if one party does not hold the same values as the others, is this difference not the main problem?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not advocating for swinging behavior which is different than polygamy, I'm only advocating for gaining insight on how to deal with jealousy using swingers as an example which can show support for successful ways to overcome jealousy in polygamy.

I am going to define this as "seeking counsel from the ungodly" !

Most people, especially those with a 'jealosuy problem' will probably find it inconceivable that people could allow their partners to have casual sex in their own homes with a stranger or acquaintance. But to swingers this is considered an acceptable form of social recreation, according to family expert Brian Gilmartin.

Gilmartin studied 100 swingers and compared them to non-swingers living in the same California neighborhood.

...Gilmartin comparison between swingers and non-swingers indicates that, like the Keristans, swingers seldom experience jealousy when their mates have sex with someone else.
...Swingers are not likely to respond with jealousy, even to this common trigger of jealousy, because they don't perceive it as a threat. In their own system of beliefs, sex with another person doesn't mean being unfaithful or untrue, it simply means having harmless fun.



Source:
Romantic Jealousy: Causes, Symptoms, and Cures by Dr. Ayala Malach Pines (a practicing clinical psychologist)... pg 144. Much of the book is on Google so you can read the page here.

Also what I found interesting was chapter 6 of the book regarding jealousy from a cross-cultural standpoint. In some regions of the world, it is almost like a ritual or a sign of hospitality to invite someone to have sex with your mate.. like in some Eskimo inhabited regions, in some parts of Africa, etc. These are sexual practices that would make the average person in WESTERN/mainstream culture drop to the floor; but nonetheless it's good to know about in showing how views on jealousy and what triggers it can be based on cultural/social standards, in part.

Words fail me at the moment :x
Suffice it to say that everything we need to deal with jealousy in any and all areas of life are contained in the Bible. We do not need Dr. Pine and her/his morally questionable book.

 

[PolyPride]

But to swingers this is considered an acceptable form of social recreation,

Polypride, do you think then that in light of this post, it is correct to say that if all parties to a polygynous marriage held the same values regarding marital associations there is a better chance of success?

I would say yes. Our values guide us on how we'll act and do things and 2 or more people having the same values for how relationships would help the people work together in a common good way.

Also, if one party does not hold the same values as the others, is this difference not the main problem?

I say yes here as well. I mean don't get me wrong, this goes beyond just a matter of values because it takes putting your values/standards into practice, as well. Our actions don't add up perfectly with our values like if the husband is actually playing favorites and being unfair. in that case, work needs to be done to make sure we're behaving consistently with our values.

My only purpose for posting my previous post about swingers was just to show that it's possible for jealousy to not be a problem even in multiple partner settings.

 

[PolyPride]

I'm not advocating for swinging behavior which is different than polygamy, I'm only advocating for gaining insight on how to deal with jealousy using swingers as an example which can show support for successful ways to overcome jealousy in polygamy.

I am going to define this as "seeking counsel from the ungodly" !

Most people, especially those with a 'jealosuy problem' will probably find it inconceivable that people could allow their partners to have casual sex in their own homes with a stranger or acquaintance. But to swingers this is considered an acceptable form of social recreation, according to family expert Brian Gilmartin.

Gilmartin studied 100 swingers and compared them to non-swingers living in the same California neighborhood.

...Gilmartin comparison between swingers and non-swingers indicates that, like the Keristans, swingers seldom experience jealousy when their mates have sex with someone else.
...Swingers are not likely to respond with jealousy, even to this common trigger of jealousy, because they don't perceive it as a threat. In their own system of beliefs, sex with another person doesn't mean being unfaithful or untrue, it simply means having harmless fun.



Source:
Romantic Jealousy: Causes, Symptoms, and Cures by Dr. Ayala Malach Pines (a practicing clinical psychologist)... pg 144. Much of the book is on Google so you can read the page here.

Also what I found interesting was chapter 6 of the book regarding jealousy from a cross-cultural standpoint. In some regions of the world, it is almost like a ritual or a sign of hospitality to invite someone to have sex with your mate.. like in some Eskimo inhabited regions, in some parts of Africa, etc. These are sexual practices that would make the average person in WESTERN/mainstream culture drop to the floor; but nonetheless it's good to know about in showing how views on jealousy and what triggers it can be based on cultural/social standards, in part.

Words fail me at the moment :x
Suffice it to say that everything we need to deal with jealousy in any and all areas of life are contained in the Bible. We do not need Dr. Pine and her/his morally questionable book.

I'm a Christian but I clearly have some differences in philosophy than you. I'm not sure if you're just anti-science. If you feel the Bible has given you all you need to know and it has worked for you to deal with jealousy then fine. Believe it or not, there is more to learn about jealousy than what the Bible goes into like how different people/cultures experience jealousy, different psychological therapies to deal with it like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, etc. It's not a sin to learn about these things especially when you're using the knowledge for a good thing. Scarecrow gave me some links to thread topics devoted to the issue of jealousy so I will get through reading those, as well.

 

[Isabella]

Thank you for the link Polypride, it does prove how our western concepts of 'possession' dictates our reactions of jealousy. I am pretty sure in a Swinging couple seeing your partner have sex would not evoke the kind of jealousy a 'look' would but it probably would have before they decided to become swingers. If we want to combat jealousy we have to work hard to overcome our culturally ingrained training towards possession and what it is we possess.

It has really given me something to think about, I am very grateful.

Bels
x

 

[Scarecrow]

It is good to understand things from different perspectives although not necessary to believe them. We can understand what people of other religions believe without believing in it ourselves. If an attorney knows his/her opposing counsel's arguments then it is easier to argue against them and win the case. Not only that, but there may even be a little insight that allows for deeper personal understanding. Being aware of outside information does not mean agreeing with it, rather it should be seen as an opportunity to expand our knowledge. Even Joseph understood that good things can come from things meant for evil purposes.

Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

If something that is not Christian or even biblical in nature can help us understand something better (in this case an aspect of human behavior) then to ignore it would keep us from better understanding the subject at hand.

As for me and my household, we want to learn more.

 

[Isabella]

If something that is not Christian or even biblical in nature can help us understand something better (in this case an aspect of human behavior) then to ignore it would keep us from better understanding the subject at hand.

As for me and my household, we want to learn more.

Exactly Scarecrow! Keeping people in mindless ignorance is a reason the Dark Ages were called thus. It wasn't because of their particular fashion sense or their love of Dominican Friars. It was because they felt to learn anything not approved by the Church was a bad thing, does anyone really want to go back to those times?

B

 

[lutherangirl]

Authors have written many books regarding what Biblical times were like to help us understand the culture of that day. So of course there has to be more written regarding our human nature in which the Bible only touches on the surface level about. Although I'm not currently in a plural union, I'm very secure about who I am and how much my husband loves me. When I think about things like intimacy (which at times can only last 15 minutes) that doesn't bother me as much as the jealousy of him laughing and spending more time with another woman. For other ladies the intimacy might be the area of their jealousy. In order to conquer these "jealousies" we have know why we feel this way and what tools to use to fix the problem.

 

[Anonymous]

I clearly have some differences in philosophy than you.

No argument there.

I'm not sure if you're just anti-science.

Not at all....
I just don't believe that Christians need to be studying the mating habits of swingers in order to combat jealousy or any other issue. The root of jealousy is spiritual, which suggests to me the solution needs to be a spiritual one.

 

[PolyPride]

I'm not sure if you're just anti-science.

Not at all....
I just don't believe that Christians need to be studying the mating habits of swingers in order to combat jealousy or any other issue. The root of jealousy is spiritual, which suggests to me the solution needs to be a spiritual one.

Do you think that emotions are a natural component of human beings or do you think all emotions are spiritually caused by either God or the Devil? I'd also wonder what free-will do we have at that point. I don't discount that jealousy can at times be caused by a spirit being, but I do discount the view jealousy would ALWAYS be due to that. It's not a coincidence that jealousy almost always coincides with events involving rival lovers and positions or people that someone wants. This to me shows a strong case for the events being the cause and certain events just trigger the reaction of jealousy, at times.

Most importantly here though is the fact that the psychotherapy works to overcome a wide range of issues from phobias, anxieites, and yes jealousy. I don't hear about that a lot in the religious community and probably because people are always looking to a magical or supernatural response, when it can be a simple natural response. So even if jealousy was ALWAYS a demonic thing, according to scientific evidence, you can beat their effects or at least gradually get better by changing your insecure thinking, changing your behavior accordingly, and by exposure to situations that normally trigger jealousy. This is no different than taking medication to combat common illnesses. If you don't want to study swingers, Fairlight, then leave that to psychologists to do and wait for their results and any therapeutic programs they create from such research to help jealousy in multiple couple settings. If you don't want to rely on doctors then just do it your way and pray everything away but from testimonies of wives in polygamy, it's not that simple, and it's beyond me for someone to limit themself to one thing instead of trying all non-harmful options.

 

[ylop]

I am with Fairlight on this issue.

I do acknowledge that useful information may be found from a wide variety of sources. I appreciate the scientific method, and in the past have personally conducted university research.

However if we are to ever have any hope of tolerance within the wider Christian community, we need to maintain a giant chasm between ourselves and swingers and related activities.

Ephesians 5:3 comes to mind - "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality..."

ylop

 

[Anonymous]

I do acknowledge that useful information may be found from a wide variety of sources. I appreciate the scientific method

As do I !

However if we are to ever have any hope of tolerance within the wider Christian community, we need to maintain a giant chasm between ourselves and swingers and related activities.

Ephesians 5:3 comes to mind - "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality..."

ylop

Exactly my point! Thank you, Ylop, for encapsulating it better than I did!

 

[Anonymous]

Fairlight wrote:

Not at all....
I just don't believe that Christians need to be studying the mating habits of swingers in order to combat jealousy or any other issue. The root of jealousy is spiritual, which suggests to me the solution needs to be a spiritual one.

PolyPride wrote:

Do you think that emotions are a natural component of human beings or do you think all emotions are spiritually caused by either God or the Devil?

Let us all take a look at the words in both quotes that are bold and underlined. We will see apples and oranges being compared here. Fairlight is saying that the root of jealousy is spiritual (not of God or the devil), a man or woman's own spirit out of alignment with God's Spirit can produce all manner of negative action and re-action with out any help from any demon. PolyPride is assuming she is referring to demonic initiated jealousy. As wicked, evil and destructive as the devil and his demons are, still they get blamed for a lot that they aren't responsible for. The Bible says "the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it." This is the spiritual problem Fairlight was referring to. No amount of therapy will cleans the human heart of wickedness, that is a job for the Blood of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the washing of the water of the Word.

If I understand Fairlight's position, she is basically saying, "we can't do God's work with the devils tools." Is there a place for counsel and mental health therapies? Absolutely, but there is a great chasm between the philosophies of Bible based therapies (which are available) and the philosophies of Freudian psychology. So, using research based upon a study of swingers for direction on a problem that is an issue of the heart is akin to shooting ones self in the head to cure a headache.

 

[Anonymous]

If I understand Fairlight's position, she is basically saying, "we can't do God's work with the devils tools."

That was exactly what I was saying

there is a great chasm between the philosophies of Bible based therapies (which are available) and the philosophies of Freudian psychology. So, using research based upon a study of swingers for direction on a problem that is an issue of the heart is akin to shooting ones self in the head to cure a headache.

Correct once again!
We have many God honoring options available to us....studying how swingers handle jealousy isn't one of them.

 

[PolyPride]

Thank you for the link Polypride, it does prove how our western concepts of 'possession' dictates our reactions of jealousy. I am pretty sure in a Swinging couple seeing your partner have sex would not evoke the kind of jealousy a 'look' would but it probably would have before they decided to become swingers. If we want to combat jealousy we have to work hard to overcome our culturally ingrained training towards possession and what it is we possess.

It has really given me something to think about, I am very grateful.

Bels
x

You're welcome. ANd good point about the shift even in swingers also b/c i'm sure they themselves weren't always like that. If only that shift can be applied to help poly wives and their jealousy in polygyny then I think we'd be good to go. I think that's very possible.

 

[Scarecrow]

"If only that shift can be applied to help poly wives and their jealousy in polygyny then I think we'd be good to go."

Our thoughts lead to our words, which in turn lead to our actions. The thoughts that cause someone to feel jealous also lead to speaking and acting in a jealous way. Addressing the reasons that these thoughts occur will help the individual experiencing jealousy to deal with those thoughts appropriately.

The wrong kind of jealousy may even be sinful. To repent means to turn around or change ones mind, perhaps jealousy is something that needs to be repented of.

 

[Isabella]

OK, I admit I may not get the whole point of repenting of ones jealousy, though I suppose if you admit you are jealous and you admit it is a negative thought process than that is far more healthy than denial, but I don't think admitting it helps to eradicate it, for that you need to change your focus not just admit the truth. For example I am hot headed and impulsive. Just because I admit to my faults does not mean I am doing a thing about changing it. People experiencing jealousy may do that also. Actions speak louder than words though.

B

 

[PolyPride]

Fairlight wrote:

Not at all....
I just don't believe that Christians need to be studying the mating habits of swingers in order to combat jealousy or any other issue. The root of jealousy is spiritual, which suggests to me the solution needs to be a spiritual one.

PolyPride wrote:

Do you think that emotions are a natural component of human beings or do you think all emotions are spiritually caused by either God or the Devil?

Let us all take a look at the words in both quotes that are bold and underlined. We will see apples and oranges being compared here. Fairlight is saying that the root of jealousy is spiritual (not of God or the devil), a man or woman's own spirit out of alignment with God's Spirit can produce all manner of negative action and re-action with out any help from any demon. PolyPride is assuming she is referring to demonic initiated jealousy. As wicked, evil and destructive as the devil and his demons are, still they get blamed for a lot that they aren't responsible for. The Bible says "the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it." This is the spiritual problem Fairlight was referring to. No amount of therapy will cleans the human heart of wickedness, that is a job for the Blood of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the washing of the water of the Word.

Thanks for clarifying and you post is a great explanation here! I understand your point about what she meant by the spiritual root of jealousy. I agree with you that therapy doesn't clean one's heart of wickedness and accepting Christ can do that but psychotherapy can still be helpful for SOME understanding and SOME recovery for various problems we suffer from. I believe sometimes both therapy and prayer are not bad.

If I understand Fairlight's position, she is basically saying, "we can't do God's work with the devils tools." Is there a place for counsel and mental health therapies? Absolutely, but there is a great chasm between the philosophies of Bible based therapies (which are available) and the philosophies of Freudian psychology. So, using research based upon a study of swingers for direction on a problem that is an issue of the heart is akin to shooting ones self in the head to cure a headache.

As Scarecrow mentioned, evil can be a tool for good just as long as the good person is not the one doing the evil. In the Book of Job, God used the Satan for His (God's) own work in Job's life. On the issue of this thread, I'm only using swingers thought/feeling process to use it for good and apply that good to people in plural marriage. Just becuz they are sinners doesn't mean that they don't have anything right about them becuz not having a jealousy problem is compatible with the Bible while swinging is not.

No sin or harm is done when you read/research about things being done especially when it's to get to a good, otherwise you'd have to stop reading some sections of the Bible that tell stoies about people doing sinful acts. Using psychotherapy is extra-biblical but extra-biblical does not always mean sinful just as long as it doesn't violate any of God's commands. If the standard is that it has to be mentioned in the Bible then we must also throw out all knowledge on medicine, health, etc, etc.