Inspiration, how the bible was written...

[IshChayil]

ב"ה​

This creeps up it's head every once in a while here at Biblical Families and often it's not wearing a head covering!
Or it is, I'm not sure. Anyway, this is an issue I'm confident most people have not seriously confronted and it results in a lot of misunderstandings.

I think really the issue is how do people conceive of "G-d breathed".

For me, G-d breathed means providence was overseeing the life of a holy prophet from a young age up to be sure that prophet was exposed to writings, ideas, wisdom, sayings, other prophetical works, poetry, etc. so that at the right time, when G-d drew him to write something, the prophet would act in the office of imager-of-G-d to write what the Holy Spirit was leading Him to write. Usually this was not a verbatim word dump from the L-rd, though some messages do come down that way in "thus sayith the L-rd" fashion.
This pattern of inspiration allows for human creativity (see the Psalms) and human insight and conjecture (see Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Job) alongside with "thus sayith" statements. If we can believe that G-d may dictate verbatim why does it need to be considered an attack on orthodoxy to believe that G-d can also be deeper and more subtle in the act of inspiration? Can't He plan for years exposing His prophet to all sorts of things then cut him loose?

It seems though, when some of us who follow this pattern of inspiration and providence post here, we get struck down as almost heretical in our perspectives.
Is G-d really so small that He only reveals Himself in verbatim speech to prophets and apostles (which then paradoxically incorporates various different human styles and word choices of the day?)

Let's have a discussion, what does G-d breathed mean to you? Were there inspired editors?
Are translations "G-d breathed" or only the autografia (original languages as penned by the prophets)?
Do prophets' personalities and cultural exposure play a part in divine prophecy or does G-d take over their hands and do the writing for them like some sort of ghost writing?
As a spirit-filled believer, I believe I have seen G-d inspire me on numerous occasions in numerous ways; providing instruction, words in a sermon, or the right thing to say to someone suffering at the right time as well as openly rebuking someone in grave error.
Is our inspiration by the Holy Spirit in the moment the same kind of inspiration an apostle may have had?

What is "divinely inspired"? What's not?

 

[The Revolting Man]

God breathed means it is given to us the way He wants us to have it, free from error and complete. Also, subsequent changes in human knowledge and understanding won't change God breathed scripture.

To use the current head covering debate as an example, God breathed scripture would never be based on the idea that a woman without a covering on her head would be exposing her genitals which is utter tripe. It's obviously a false statement and so therefore has no place in or alongside scripture. Anything that is based on the wisdom or understanding of man isn't God breathed. And you can certainly never explain away scripture with man's reasoning.

 

[Cap]

1. Who is being fooled by spelling God - G-d.

2. "God breathed scripture would NEVER be based on the idea that a woman without a covering on her head would be exposing her genitals which is utter tripe." By what authority can you say NEVER.

 

[Nikud]

1. Who is being fooled by spelling God - G-d.

What is the purpose for this statement? How does it pertain to the thread?

2. "God breathed scripture would NEVER be based on the idea that a woman without a covering on her head would be exposing her genitals which is utter tripe." By what authority can you say NEVER.

Are you saying you hold the opposite opinion? If so, please explain why you hold that opinion.

 

[The Revolting Man]

1. Who is being fooled by spelling God - G-d.

2. "God breathed scripture would NEVER be based on the idea that a woman without a covering on her head would be exposing her genitals which is utter tripe." By what authority can you say NEVER.

Because we know categorically and undeniably that semen is not produced in the head and that hair is completely unrelated to the flow of semen and thus not a part of the genitalia and thus if God did go e scripture based on that false knowledge He would not be infallible and thus He would not be God. Since He says His Word is perfect I take it on His authority that He would never utter such an obvious falsehood.

 

[IshChayil]

Because we know categorically and undeniably that semen is not produced in the head and that hair is completely unrelated to the flow of semen and thus not a part of the genitalia and thus if God did go e scripture based on that false knowledge He would not be infallible and thus He would not be God. Since He says His Word is perfect I take it on His authority that He would never utter such an obvious falsehood.

Let's keep that discussion over where it started.
This thread is for "Divinely inspired"
I'd rather not keep the discussion going in 2 threads. Thanks

I'll just respond to the "He would never utter such an obvious falsehood" comment because that's germane to this thread.
So in your view, an apostle's letters must correct all errant conceptions within a culture?
He must always correct any non-religious opinions, or popular science of the day?
I'm asking in general, let's let go of the Hippocrates errant opinion of fecundity for now.

How was Paul/prophets inspired when he wrote a letter? I'm trying to get at the meat of your perspective and those with similar mindsets. Do you think G-d whispered each word to Paul as He wrote it? Did Paul/prophets have any choice in their words?
cordially curious as this is the subject of the thread

 

[Nikud]

I believe scripture is divinely inspired, given life and made truth by the breath of G-d. The Tanahk and Gospels that we have today as cannon (regardless of what some theologians say about parts of the Gospel of John not being original) are the complete truth and narrative of Yeshua, the salvation HE deleivers, and the instructions on how we are to live our life. We may disagree about what instructions we are still suppose to follow. Its here that I say let Rauch Hakodesh be your guide. I know what scripture says to me and the confirmation I got through prayer and Rauch Hakodesh. Their are plenty of Historical books that did not make it into cannon. I've read them. I personally don't see anything that adds to Yeshuas Narrative but a few that detract from it. There are things in them that explain parts of scripture but once again add nothing to the Narrative of G-ds love for us and the salvation HE gave us through Yeshua. I believe when the Prophets speak or when Paul says it's his opinion that it is all G-d breathed because it was confirmed by Rauch Hakodesh and is part of the Tanahk and the Gospels. If it wasn't it wouldn't have made it in there. I beleive that the (mis)translations from the original text are not G-d breathed but are not without merrit. They are a great place to start.....most of them....some of them.....STAY AWAY FROM THE AMPLIFIED BIBLE!!! Either it is infallible and the Truth of Adonai, or it is the the work of Man corrupted by the flesh and a lie. That's my stance anyway.

Is our inspiration by the Holy Spirit in the moment the same kind of inspiration an apostle may have had?

Yeah, of course, G-d doesn't change. HE works the same today as HE did yesterday. That's why it is important to know scripture. Rauch Hakodesh may lead us places we would normally never dream of going but it would never lead us against HIS word.

 

[IshChayil]

I believe scripture is divinely inspired, given life and made truth by the breath of G-d. The Tanahk and Gospels that we have today as cannon (regardless of what some theologians say about parts of the Gospel of John not being original) are the complete truth and narrative of Yeshua, the salvation HE deleivers, and the instructions on how we are to live our life.

Can you drill down deeper on these terms I bolded from your post brother?
I'm interested to know peoples' understandings of the process/processes that occurred. So let's take Matthew for example. When he wrote his gospel, were the words dictated to him by the Holy Spirit and he was just like a vessel doing a page dump and when he was done he said "wow look what G-d wrote?" Or did G-d allow him to write in his own style, to choose his own words while being gently guided by the spirit, just remembering the events with Yeshua in his own life?
What about David when he wrote psalms?
What about Paul when he wrote letters?
How much of it was verbatim dictated by G-d's voice, and how much of it were they trusted with as righteous men to pen?

When David cries out "lev tahor b'ra li elohiym, v'ruach nachon chadesh b'kir bi" (create in me oh G-d a pure heart and a correct spirit renew within me) was David allowed to be poetic as he penned that? Or did the holy spirit tell him each word to choose. What about in psalm 137 where another psalmist / not David, says "ashrei sh'yocheyz v'nipeyts et-ʿolalayikh el hasalaʿ" (blessed are those who sieze and smash your infants on the rock (cliff) ) referring to our captors. Was that the literal wording G-d dictated to the psalmist or was it human creativity mixed with Divine anointing?

Hope you see what I'm curious about. I want to know how people see this. I want folks to think about it and be honest with themselves and hopefully share.
I think this is useful for our community since we all have different denominational and cultural backgrounds and well different folks see inspiration differently but I've never heard a sermon on it.

 

[Nikud]

Divinely Inspired

Gospels
If G-d dictated verbatim then there would be no difference in the Synoptic Gospels. So yes there own style of writing nudged to reveal the narrative Elohim wanted. Their hands stayed if they were going to write something embellished.
G-d worked through them to give us the narrative for salvation and Grace.

Tanahk
Each of the Prophets had their unique poetic style of writing but you always find an tone they set that resonates through all prophecy. So with the prophets sometimes HE inspires and guides. At other times HE dictates and demands obedience.

G-d Breathed

Is how Rauch Hakodesh tied together the scriptures to make a cannon based on the Truth of G-d and the Truth only. When Rauch Hakodesh guided the council that choose the books that were to be cannon and confirmed it by two more subsequental councils it became G-d breathed, sanctified by El Shaddai and declared the will of Adonai. The Holy Spirit confirmed all that was written to be the truth, for Rauch Hakodesh is part of the G-dhead and G-d does not lie.

Then the Romans did what the Romans did best violate all that was holy and created the vulgate. We all know that a copy is never as clear as the original. Especially when it involves the colesium sized ego of a culture that's in a perpetual my Obelisk is bigger than yours contest with all other cultures.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Let's keep that discussion over where it started.
This thread is for "Divinely inspired"
I'd rather not keep the discussion going in 2 threads. Thanks

I'll just respond to the "He would never utter such an obvious falsehood" comment because that's germane to this thread.
So in your view, an apostle's letters must correct all errant conceptions within a culture?
He must always correct any non-religious opinions, or popular science of the day?
I'm asking in general, let's let go of the Hippocrates errant opinion of fecundity for now.

How was Paul/prophets inspired when he wrote a letter? I'm trying to get at the meat of your perspective and those with similar mindsets. Do you think G-d whispered each word to Paul as He wrote it? Did Paul/prophets have any choice in their words?
cordially curious as this is the subject of the thread

This is a very subtle but very significant redirecting of the conversation Ish. The implication from the link you provided was that Paul based his writings on false information. He wanted women to cover their hair because it was connected to their genitals. If he had engaged the information that would have been different. But the claim here is that he used it to formulate scripture.

As far as how God gives scripture, I'm sure it varies. He could do it anyway He wants. What matters is that when the finished product is presented to us that we accept it as infallible and completely sufficient for it's purpose. I'm sure He used every method we could imagine to produce the different sections, including some editing by other authors. He transmitted to us what He wanted us to have though.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Arguing that G-d dictated the scriptures verbatim or that He just kind of swept the writers in a general direction with a big spiritual broom, are both sort of a small minded view of G-d. There are heptatic structures in the text itself, in both the old and New Testament, that are so complex they couldn’t be written even using a computer. The complexity of building the structures within the text and conveying a coherent message to a reader at the same time, makes it an absolute impossibility for it to be roughly what G-d meant. G-d is the all mighty, all knowing creator of the universe, who can see the end from the beginning, who lives outside of time and space and can effect them both at will. G-d can speak through people without them even knowing it. Take the High priest, for instance, who said:

John 11:49-51 KJV
[49] “And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, [50] Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. [51] And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;”

It is G-d breathed, breathed out by G-d, unstoppable, unchanging, not one jot or tittle will change of the law until all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall never pass away. The men of G-d were carried along by the Holy Spirit to write exactly what G-d wanted them to write, whether they knew it or not.

 

[Cap]

What is the purpose for this statement? How does it pertain to the thread?
Are you saying you hold the opposite opinion? If so, please explain why you hold that opinion.

in·spi·ra·tion /ˌinspəˈrāSH(ə)n/ noun 1. the process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, especially to do something creative:

That's what I thought this thread was about. Missing spelling words, using Hebrew words that don't fit our culture, making statements for God (NEVER), trying to follow Old Testament Laws limits Grace and therefore Inspiration. But that is just me, you will allow me to be me correct?

Not trying to be disrespectful or anything it's just I watch you guys try and push your big bibles around and it appears to me that those of us (ok maybe just me) that would love to explore the meaning of spirtual inspiration always seem to have to take a backseat to legalism.

 

[Nikud]

Not trying to be disrespectful or anything it's just I watch you guys try and push your big bibles around and it appears to me that those of us (ok maybe just me) that would love to explore the meaning of spirtual inspiration always seem to have to take a backseat to legalism.

Let's talk plainly, I'm going to call BS on the the fact that you say you don't mean to be disrespectful. Your not fooling anyone. We've all read your post here and on other threads. It's obvious you don't agree with some of us (Torah Keepers) and go out of your way to be antagonistic towards us. No body is stopping you from voicing your beleifs and opinions but yourself. The only thing is that as a man your accountable for what you say and should be able to back it up with scripture and reason.

How is anything that has been said here Legalism?

How does trying to following Torah limits Grace and therefore Inspiration?

using Hebrew words that don't fit our culture,

Are you saying that we should adapt/change the word of G-d to the modern culture?

I watch you guys try and push your big bibles around

Is this beside the fact that the some of us are Torah Keepers the problem? Your feeling intellectually inferior and a bit insecure. If it is. Don't be. We all have different giftings and it's nothing that dedication to study can't overcome.

 

[Nikud]

Arguing that G-d dictated the scriptures verbatim or that He just kind of swept the writers in a general direction with a big spiritual broom, are both sort of a small minded view of G-d.

Please explain.

It is G-d breathed, breathed out by G-d, unstoppable, unchanging, not one jot or tittle will change of the law until all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall never pass away. The men of G-d were carried along by the Holy Spirit to write exactly what G-d wanted them to write, whether they knew it or not.

I agree 100%, I believe the question Ish was asking was how do each of us see how G-d inspire them to full fill HIS will, to have the scripture he wanted us to have. It's one of of those questions that through ours thoughts on the subject reveal alot about one's personal relationship with Adonai.

I believe that at times HE works HIS will on HIS servants like a current and wind takes a sail boat on a journey. Both give leeway in traveling but the direction is set unless acted upon. At other times He works HIS will on HIS servants like a knight griping the reigns of a warhorse spurring it on with precision and calming it a the same time. Then I also beleive in a few occasions He works HIS will on HIS servants just as He did in the scripture you mentioned Caiaphas opened his mouth but it was G-d that spoke.

 

[Cap]

Let's talk plainly, I'm going to call BS on the the fact that you say you don't mean to be disrespectful. Your not fooling anyone. We've all read your post here and on other threads. It's obvious you don't agree with some of us (Torah Keepers) and go out of your way to be antagonistic towards us. No body is stopping you from voicing your beleifs and opinions but yourself. The only thing is that as a man your accountable for what you say and should be able to back it up with scripture and reason.

How is anything that has been said here Legalism?

How does trying to following Torah limits Grace and therefore Inspiration?


Are you saying that we should adapt/change the word of G-d to the modern culture?


Is this beside the fact that the some of us are Torah Keepers the problem? Your feeling intellectually inferior and a bit insecure. If it is. Don't be. We all have different giftings and it's nothing that dedication to study can't overcome.

Yes I believe you Torah keepers do push your weight around here. Last I checked this is a forum for plural families. "intellectually inferior and a bit insecure" that's funny. But it does prove how much when you want to be disrespectful you can and have been in the past therefore may have prompted my attitude.

 

[Nikud]

intellectually inferior and a bit insecure" that's funny. B

That came out wrong and I apologize for that

 

[Nikud]

Yes I believe you Torah keepers do push your weight around here. Last I checked this is a forum for plural families

Push our weight around?? You mean voice our opinion like everyone else. I don't know if you realise those of us that Keep Torah are restricted on what we can say to keep the peace with those who are intolerant of Torah Keepers. For example you can say Nobody has to follow Torah were covered by Grace and give your argument. I could not make the argument (not that I would) that everyone must obey Torah or your salvation is in jeopardy. I've been censored for a misunderstanding that came to close to that line. For good reason there's some Torah Keepers who get confused and think there salvation depends on observing Torah, just as there are those who are confused and think that just because someone follows Torah there legalistic or because there covered by Grace there free to do as they will.

Beleive it or not when you leave Torah out of it you'll find that many of us are on the same page.

This is in a forum marked Biblical issues other than Marriage & Family. So I don't understand the reason for that statement. Unless it's a statement that there's no room in plural families for Torah Keepers?

But it does prove how much when you want to be disrespectful you can and have been in the past therefore may have prompted my attitude.

Up until this last jab you did I was unaware that I had been disrespectful to you. I reread all other interactions we've had and havent seen one time. I've seen, since the Georgia retreat, where you've been trying to provoke Zec and Ish....mainly Ish. Whatever problems you had in the past with whichever Torah Keeper let it stay there. Treat us with respect and well do the same to you. That doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything but that's a good thing. When a group of men agree on all things that's when Tyranny is born.

 

[andrew]

Do I need to say anything specific here, or will a general admonition to everybody to get back in the flow of this thread be enough? (For clarity, the fact that I'm posting right behind Kevin is just a coincidence; I'm catching up on a lot of posts.)

This is one of the most emotionally-loaded topics we can choose to discuss, and I have to admit I respect @IshChayil for being willing to 'go there' and maintaining to me what looks like a collegial tone (as much as 'tone' applies to written information...). We have to stipulate in advance that we're all going to answer this question somewhat differently, and then get over the fact that we all answered this question differently. In the fight for cultural recognition of biblical marriage, we are all on the same team. Everything else is just interesting diversity. Let's keep that in mind.

 

[andrew]

The question here is, "What the heck did Paul have in mind when he wrote that πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος?, or roughly, 'all writing is God-blown'?". This is a classic piece of work that very quickly becomes rather circular as people try to figure out what the implications of that statement are through the lens of what they already believe about what the bible is, how it came to be, and if I can say it like this, what they 'need' it to be (which applies to 'crazy charismaniacs' as much as 'wooden headed literalists'). Let's see if we can just enjoy the diversity of thought here without getting into a verbal fist fight over whose obelisk is bigger.

 

[andrew]

@IshChayil gets a point for wanting to drill down on what 'inspired' really means in the practical world. "How did that work?" comes logically before "What does it all mean?". Or does it? This looks to me like a chicken-and-egg (or circular) reasoning exercise, but let's see what happens.

For me, I think 'inspired' does a reasonable job of conveying what needs to be conveyed, maybe even what can be conveyed, by Paul's Greek idiom. It connotes clearly that God moved on the men that were writing, while leaving rather open the details of exactly how that happened, or whether it happened exactly the same way each time. Greek tyros will latch onto the Greek word and say, "it's not God-inspired, it's God-breathed", as if that improves communication or now we're better translators than King Jim's bishops, but it doesn't really, does it? It just changes the word we have to explain if we want to claim some deeper understanding of what's being said, but it doesn't change the fact that we have to explain what we mean by that.

So for me, the medium is the message. The fact that Paul said that God blew the writings into existence indicates clearly that God has spoken to us through the scriptures (fancy-pants Latin for 'writings', which is English for γραφη), and doesn't say anything at all about the mechanics of how that happens or what implications we can read into that. Good enough for me.