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Genesis 2:24

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No, you showed that there is a word that means "cleave" in Greek.

Did you think there wasn't?

You showed that Paul was not just talking about sex with a sexually immoral person, but also joining yourself with a sexually immoral person.

If "kollao" means sex, then we are being told to have sex with The Lord in the next verse.

Although they are not entirely interchangeable, kollao, like dabaq, has a known and consistently used meaning throughout scripture. It always means the same thing.

Interestingly, it is also one of the most well known words in extra-biblical sources as well, as medical manuscripts use it to describe sewing wounds together or mending fractures or such things.
 
Also, just as an observation, we are now at a point where this "totally scriptural" "directly from the bible" "taking the verses for what they actually say only" idea, after an entire week of trying to defend it, is attempted to be propped up with "if I take the Hebrew, translate that into Greek, then translate that into English, and then compare it to some English translated from Greek which is itself a translation of Aramaic which is translated from Hebrew, then there's this one verse out of the couple hundred we're talking about that might not be contradictory".

That seems like an excellent basis to form doctrine on.

Especially when you don't know how to say "and".
 
Jason said:
We are talking about the Hebrew word "dabaq", which is not necessarily translatable into another language.

In other words, do you have a better word that could be used for the same concept?

But, in Greek, kollao also always means "joined". In fact, it usually means something like soulmates. We never got here, because you guys can't get past Genesis 2, but remember Zec, when you said "its a little sophomoric to suggest that only means sex. Paul would have been saying Don't have sex with a prostitute. Don't you know you'll be having sex with her if you do?"

Man! Look at the reaction!

Guys, watch closely, because Jason doesn't want anyone to notice this:

Jason got exactly what he has been asking for.

If we had seen something in the New Testament that quoted 1st Kings 11:2 and the word used to translate "dabaq" was the same word Paul later used to describe the physical act of sex, the natural reaction would be for (ahem) *someone* to say "well, just because it was used that way to describe what a guy with 1000 women is doing doesn't in any way mean it should apply to Genesis 2:24. You haven't proved anything."

But that's not what happened.

First we see Genesis 2:24 translated into Greek with Apostolic Authority. They didn't get it wrong.

Again, this was NOT some other passage that happened to use the word "dabaq" but Genesis 2:24.
Again, this was NOT some translator guy who studies and knows stuff, but translated with Apostolic Authority.

Then we see the Apostle Paul, the "Pharisee of Pharisees" who studied under one of the greatest minds of his generation, use that same word in his Apostolic Authority to describe the physical act of having sex. I've got to say, when Jason said "Please show me a verse" he had no idea what he was in for. I wonder if he's praising the Lord...

Despite all the fuss Jason will kick up, there can be no question that when looking at Genesis 2:24, the element of "he shall cleave to his wife" means that the man is going to have sex with her. As to who is clinging to or being clung to or how hard or for how long, it does not matter. What we are seeing is sex.

Genesis 2:24 describes a process in which the man acts and then God acts. Man joins with his wife, God joins them as one flesh. Man joins with his wife with the physical act of having sex. God joins them together with an action that Paul describes as a mystery. We don't know what God does or how it works, but we have the testimony of Christ that becoming "one flesh" is something that God does.

We also just saw the same word used to describe a physical action and a spiritual action. Remember that. It's important.

So, "please show me a verse" Jason got hit with a word specifically used to translate "dabaq" as it is used in Genesis 2:24 then the SAME WORD being used by the Apostle Paul to describe the act of having sex. The fact it's with a prostitute is irrelevant because the word describes the act of placing a penis in a vagina. Screwing, banging, making love, it's all sex.

Now... watch this: Jason is already running for cover.
Jason said:
"We are talking about the Hebrew word "dabaq", which is not necessarily translatable into another language."

The man who has been positively insistent for page after page that he is positive he knows what that word means and everyone who does not agree with him is wrong.... is now giving us a song and dance about... you know... who knows what the word really means? We can't be sure.

But Jason is sure that it doesn't mean sex. It can't mean sex. Jason is sure.

And Jason is already trying to get everyone to forget what we just saw: That "kollao" is a translation of "dabaq" as it is used in Genesis 2:24 and "kollao" is the word Paul used to describe the act of a man placing his penis in a vagina. Watch:

Jason said:
"No, you showed that there is a word that means "cleave" in Greek.

Did you think there wasn't?"

See that? He thinks if he just keeps pressing his story that you'll forget that God just gave him what he asked for. Because he certainly doesn't want to deal with it. But it gets better.

Jason said:
"You showed that Paul was not just talking about sex with a sexually immoral person, but also joining yourself with a sexually immoral person."

This is a real doozy. A professional-grade politician-class piece of distraction and chicanery.

The Apostle Paul was only talking about sex, because sex only automatically results in marriage if you do it with an eligible virgin. Not with prostitutes who don't consent to marriage. That's why the men used prostitutes- so they could have sex that didn't result in marriage and it's not a sin because it's not forbidden.

The point the Apostle Paul was making was that the men were using their authority to initiate marriage (the right to have sex with any eligible woman) in a way that was designed to ensure they would not be married to a person they would never marry. They'd have sex with her but they'd never marry her. Which is a perversion of God's design. I already explained this, but it's difficult to accept on an emotional level. And Jason knows that.

Jason said:
"If "kollao" means sex, then we are being told to have sex with The Lord in the next verse."

"If??? Wow! The Apostle Paul just told us it does mean sex! Don't you believe the Apostle Paul?

And when I read this, I could not believe my eyes. He really did say that. He really, really did.

Jason said:
"If "kollao" means sex, then we are being told to have sex with The Lord in the next verse."


As if the word used to describe a physical act can't be applied to a spiritual concept. That's right up there with claiming that being born again means you have to crawl through your mother's vagina as an adult! Jason is claiming that if Paul actually commanded men not to have sex with prostitutes, then he also commanded us to have sex with the Lord in the next verse.

But Jason is really, really good. He quoted ZecAustin's statement that expressed his confusion about *why* Paul would issue such a command and used that to really mix this up.

Jason knows the Law did not prohibit men from using prostitutes and 1st Corinthians 6:15-16 was the first point in Scripture where such activities were forbidden. He knows everybody is thinking... "yeah, why would Paul tell them to stop doing something that was already forbidden?" He knows that the real answer is "Because it wasn't forbidden in the Law and up until that point the men felt like they had the right to do so. It was not forbidden and it was not a sin." But Jason won't tell you that.

Jason also knows that is the reason why Paul was explaining it to the men. Imagine it like this:

"Yes, I know, even though the Law didn't prohibit this, you shouldn't do it. Sex is how you initiate marriage and that's why you have the authority to have sex with any eligible woman. It's very special act that's designed to initiate the spiritual bonding by God called marriage. But when you have sex with a whore, you are using this special act in a very sordid way that's designed to avoid marriage. You have spiritually been joined to Christ and are a member of his body, which means you're taking Him right along with you on your sordid little ride. Don't join the members of Christ to a whore."

Then there's the language confusion- no matter how many times a man physically "joins" or "cleaves" with his wife, using that same word to describe the "joining" or "cleaving" to Christ doesn't mean and cannot mean having sex with the Lord. And Jason knows that too. Because *HE* knows what the word "and" means. He told us so himself.

So watch his next move. He knows what the word "and" means:

Jason said:
"Although they are not entirely interchangeable, kollao, like dabaq, has a known and consistently used meaning throughout scripture. It always means the same thing."

Look carefully people. Jason just told the absolute truth in order to get you to believe a lie. The absolute truth but not the whole truth. Watch- I'll insert the missing piece in bold:

"Although they are not entirely interchangeable, kollao, like dabaq, has a known and consistently used context-driven meaning throughout scripture.

It is the truth because every time "dabaq" and "kollao" are used to describe the "shall cleave" portion of Genesis 2:24 they mean sex. And the Apostle Paul wanted us to know that so he used "kollao" in 1st Corinthians 6:16 when explaining that Christians are not to join themselves to a whore because it is a physical act that is part of the process (Genesis 2:24) that causes God to make the person one flesh with their spouse. Which is why he quoted part of Genesis 2:24: just to make it clear.

The lie Jason wants you to believe is that "dabaq" and "kollao" don't mean sex within the context of Genesis 2:24 "shall cleave" because in other passages they are used to mean something else. Don't believe me? Watch, I'll show you again:

Jason said:
"But, in Greek, kollao also always means "joined". In fact, it usually means something like soulmates." *EMPHASIS ADDED

See that? "kollao also always means "joined". Truth. but what does "joined" mean? Jason did not say that kollao never means sex. No, he is using the difference between what the context-specific meaning of the word when used in a Genesis 2:24 context is as opposed to any other context-specific meanings of the word when used somewhere else. It doesn't get mentioned, but the marital relationship is different from other relationships. The act of marriage is unique and forms a unique relationship. Which is why marriage is used as a type for another very special and unique kind of relationship: the relationship between Christ and the church.

Jason wants us to ignore that what Genesis 2:24 is describing is a process so special and unique that when used in that context the word "kollao" means sex. When used to describe personal relationships that are not matrimonial in nature, "kollao" usually means "something like soulmates." The context makes all the difference.

Jason, how do you say "ouch" in Hebrew?
 
All the commentary you would like to add doesn't change the meaning of the words. Saying that, in the particular verses you need these words to mean something else in, that they definitely mean something else, because you need them to, doesn't change anything.

Kollao still means the same as it ever did.

Dabaq still means the same as it ever did.

One body is not a sexual reference.

One flesh is a sexual reference, and has a lot of other connotations too. It is also in the future tense, by the way. In other words, it will happen. Not that it has happened or is happening.

Zec discovered the Greek word for "cleave". Apparently you think this is significant. The fact that you go ahead and assume it means sex, and then proceed to misapply it, is not surprising. That's kindof what you've been doing a lot.

If you've noticed, I just take it for granted that no one else is really swayed by any of the commentary either. I mean, I just assume that people are tired of seeing the same old "argument" over and over. I don't feel like I need to address it.

Please someone let me know if this is an incorrect assumption and I will address whatever specific point needs to be addressed. Otherwise . . . . . . .
 
Well let me say this on the way out, Jason definitely was right to call me out about saying it was sophmoric to suggest that I Corinthians 6:14 had two sex acts and that Paul wouldn't have said "don't have sex with a prostitute or you'll have sex with a prostitute."

My reasoning was solid but my facts were wrong. I was thinking that "one flesh" meant sex. I was wrong. One flesh results from sex. I had the sex in the wrong place. Jason you pointed out the flaws in my beliefs admirably and helped me to come to a better understanding. Obviously I disagree with your interpretation but I am very grateful for your influence. I hope we can all meet one day and share a beverage.
 
One flesh definitely means sex. The euphemism has been in use that way for a few thousand years. That's what made it a good play on words.

But I get why you say it must not. As I said, when you begin with the preconception of sex=marriage, this is the only way you can go. The normal definition of words doesn't work with this idea, so they must be changed to maintain it. The scriptural support must be ignored, and the cultural context must be disregarded.

It would seem that the motivation for all these changes must be a strong one, as they have open disdain for normal hermeneutical methods.

Well, when the final claims of such things are guiltless casual sex and the claim that a girl is forever yours if you "get her cherry" as it was put, those motivations seem pretty well spelled out. I don't think many of us are ignorant of MGTOW philosophy. I just think most of us have moved past that stepping stone.
 
Vashi ushi zakryty. Doesn't make much difference though if you change it to suit your beliefs rather than the other way around.

Seriously, if anyone thinks there's a valid point there that needs to be addressed . . . .

Or if anyone wants to pick up on the fornication topic . . . . .
 
Jason said:
Seriously, if anyone thinks there's a valid point there that needs to be addressed . . . .

The valid point is the one you've refused to address.

Eristophanes said:
"Refuting Jason's claim that "shall cleave" is commitment is the testimony of the Law that the wives of Leviticus 21:7-11, Deuteronomy 21:10-14 and Deuteronomy 22:28-29 are married by force without commitment. Jason claims the "shall cleave" element is required and within that element the word "dabaq'' means commitment, not sex. Yet, the Law specifies 3 classes of women who become wives in the absence of commitment or consent: Those sold by their fathers, those captured in war and those raped.

Thus, Jason's claim that the use of "dabaq" in Genesis 2:24 must be defined as commitment contradicts the testimony of three separate passages of the Law that describe three separate classes of women who are married (by force, coercion or duress) without consent or commitment. Jason has presented zero evidence other than his opinion to answer the question of why "dabaq" cannot be defined as a word that carries with it the specific denotation of sex as used in Genesis 2:24

Jason, the evidence demonstrates that three different classes of women are married without commitment or consent. Accordingly, either the "shall cleave" portion of Genesis 2:24 isn't required for marriage or it doesn't mean commitment like you claim it does.

Either way, that leaves only sex as the only definitive act that creates marriage.
 
Historical Information Concerning The Church:

One of the problems modern Christians have is the dichotomy between what Scripture actually says about marriage and the doctrines that are commonly taught about marriage. The immediate question is "if this is what Scripture says, why do we have the doctrines that we do?"

The simple answer is after Christianity became the defacto religion of Rome, there followed a general period of persecution of the pagans. Many of these pagans joined the church and two of them Augustine and Jerome (previously Manechean and Stoic) were extremely influential in the development of Christian doctrine about sex and marriage. In a nutshell, they hated sex and the idea of sex because they believed sexual pleasure was inherently evil in and of itself. Whether it took place within marriage or without, it was evil. Out of that, a number of other doctrines were formed.

The idea that men and women were to held to the same sexual norms.
The idea that marriage is formed by consent and not by that evil sex stuff.

These quotes represent the organizational mindset of the people in charge of collecting, preserving, conserving, reproducing and translating all the early and original copies of Scripture. As several Catholic priests have explained it to me

"We decided what Scripture was and We decide what it means."

If one looks at the disparity between what Scripture says and what the "Teachings and Traditions" of the church are, I think that says it all.

All quotes taken from chapter 3 Sex and the Law in the Christian Empire, From Constantine to Justinian contained in "Law, Sex and Christian Society In Medieval Europe" by James A Brundage. The page numbers are at the end of each quote and the footnotes are cited within the text in parenthesis and below each quote. Each quote and accompanying notes is separated by a line.
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During Constantine's reign and those of his sons and successors, Christians secured numerous social and political advantages. By the end of the fourth century the Roman government, with the enthusiastic cooperation of Church authorities, was beginning to persecute pagans and other non-Christians, as well as Christians whose beliefs differed from the norms of an orthodoxy that was continuously engaged in defining itself. Early in the fifth century, Christianity became in law what it had for several generations been in fact: the official religion of the Roman state (1). (page 77)

1. On Constantine's life and religious policies see generally Andras Alfoldi, The Conversion of Constantine and Pagan Rome (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1948); Jakob Burckhardt, The Age of Constantine the Great, trans. Moses Hadas (New York: Pantheon Books, 1949); Hermann Dorries, Vas Selbstzeugnis Kaiser Konstantins, Abhandlungen der Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Gottingen, phil.-hist. Kl., ser. 3, vol. 34 (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1954), and Liebschuetz, Continuity and Change, esp. pp. 277-89. On the relationship of paganism to Christianity in the fourth and fifth centuries see also James J. O'Donnell, “The Demise of Paganism," Traditio 35 (1979) 45-88, as well as Charles Norris Cochrane, Christianity and Classical Culture: A Study in Thought and Action from Augustus to Augustine (London: Oxford University Press, 1944)•
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Up to the beginning of the fourth century Christians had not yet created a systematic theology; now they felt the need to devise coherent and sophisticated justifications for their religious teachings in terms of current scientific and philosophical thought.

The Church Fathers of the fourth and fifth centuries took up this task with zest and vigor. They were determined not only to justify the teachings of their religion to others, but also to demonstrate to their own satisfaction that Christian beliefs accounted for the world and mankind's place in it more adequately than alternative explanatory systems. Out of the writings of such teachers as Sts. Gregory of Nyssa (ca. 335-ca. 395) and John Chrysostom (ca. 344-407) in the Greek-speaking East and Sts. Ambrose, Jerome, and Augustine in the Latin-speaking West, there would emerge by the sixth century a Christian world view that was far more systematic and rigorous than anything that had gone before. The theologizing of Christianity began in earnest during this period. This process required Christian intellectuals, among other things, to account for the place of sex in the scheme of creation and to define the role that sexual relations ought to play in the Christian life. (page 79)
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The Church Fathers' views of sex were dominated by ascetic values, for most of the Fathers were, at one time or another in their careers, monks or hermits. The most important patristic authority on sexual matters, the one whose views have most fundamentally influenced subsequent ideas about sexuality in the West, was St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430). Augustine held strong, deep seated convictions about sexual relationships and the role of sex in human history, convictions that flowed from his own experience and his reflections upon it, convictions that brooked neither denial nor dissent(3).

Sexual desire, Augustine believed, was the most foul and unclean of human wickednesses, the most pervasive manifestation of man's disobedience to God's designs (4). Other bodily desires and pleasures, Augustine felt, did not overwhelm reason and disarm the will: one can be sensible while enjoying a good meal, one can discuss matters reasonably over a bottle of wine. But sex, Augustine argued, was more powerful than other sensual attractions; it could overcome reason and free will altogether. Married people, who ought to have sex only in order to beget children, can be overwhelmed by lubricious desires that blot out reason and restraint; they tumble into bed together simply in order to enjoy the pleasure of each other's body. This, Augustine thought, was not only irrational but sinful (5). Augustine's underlying belief in the intrinsic sinfulness of carnal desire and the sensual delight that accompanied sexual union became a standard premise of Western beliefs about sexuality during the Middle Ages and beyond (6).

Not only was sexual desire a basic and pervasive evil, according to Augustine, but it was also a vice that no one could be sure of mastering. We are born with it and it lasts as long as we live. No one, whatever his age or position in life, can confidently claim to have conquered it (7). "As I was writing this," Augustine noted in his polemic against Julian, "we were told that a man of eighty-four, who had lived a life of continence under religious observance with a pious wife for twenty-five years, has just bought himself a music-girl for his pleasure." (page 80)

3. Peter Brown, Augustine of Hippo: A Biography (Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1967), pp. 390-91; Edward A. Synan, "Augustine of Hippo, Saint," in Dictionary of the Middle Ages, ed. Joseph R. Strayer et al., 13 vols. (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1982- ; cited hereafter as DMA) 1: 646- 59. See also Bailey, Sexual Relation, pp. 58-59; Kosnik et al., Human Sexuality, p. 36.
4. Augustine, Contra Julianum 4.5.35, in PL 44: 756: "In quibus [cupiditatibus malis] libido prae caeteris est, cui nisi resistatur, horrenda immunda committit."
5. Augustine, Contra Julianum 4.14.71, in PL 44: 773-74.
6. Miiller, Lehre, pp. 22-23; Lecky, Hist. of European Morals 2:281-82.
7. Augustine, Sermo 151. 5, in PL 38: 817: "Ergo semper pugnandum est, quia ipsa concupiscentia, cum qua nati sumus, finiri non potest quamdiu vivimus: quotidie minui potest, finiri non potest." See also St. John Cassian, Conlationes 4.11.2 and 4.15.1, in CSEL 13: 105, 110, as well as his Institutiones 6.1, in CSEL 17: 115.
8. Augustine, Contra Julianum 3.11.22, in PL 44: 713: "Nam cum hoc opus in minibus haberem, nunciatus est nobis senex octaginta et quatuor agens annos, qui religiose cum conjuge religiosa jam viginti quinque annos vixerat continenter, ad libidinem sibi emisse Lyristriam." Brown, Augustine of Hippo, p. 405.
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Sex, Augustine believed, was a shameful, sordid business. For this reason, he observed, people always try to carry out their sex functions in seclusion. Even brothels, he noted, provide privacy so that whores and their customers can do their dirty business in the dark. Likewise married couples seek seclusion when they make love: what they do may be perfectly legal, but it is also shameful. The shame of sex resulted from the ritual pollution that accompanied all sexual activity. Augustine and other Fathers argued that the Old Testament requirements for purification after marital intercourse or nocturnal emission meant that Christians, too, must cleanse themselves of sexual defilement before they could participate in religious services. The Fathers were careful to point out that this did not mean that sex was always sinful, but it did mean that sex left a stain of moral contamination that must be removed before entering holy places or participating in sacred rites. The genital organs themselves were both ritually and morally unclean, according to Augustine. Sexual passion was rooted in the genitals, and our very anatomy proclaimed that the physical sources of human life and reproduction were also the physical sources of sin and pollution (10). (page 81)

10. Augustine, De civ. Dei 14.18-20, in CCL 48: 440-43; De bono coniugali 20.23, ed. Joseph Zycha, in CSEL 41 (Vienna: F. Tempsky, 1900), pp. 217-18; Serm. 151.5, in PL 38: 817; Daniel Callam, "Clerical Continence in the Fourth Century: Three Papal Decretals," Theological Studies 41 (1980) 49-50; Brown, Augustine of Hippo, p. 388.
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Augustine wrote eloquently on the theology of sex, but he was by no means the only patristic writer to deal with the subject. His contemporaries by and large shared Augustine's negative attitudes toward the role of sex in Christian life. A few were even more certain than he that sex was a root cause of sin and corruption. St. Jerome (ca. 347-419/20), for example, maintained that sex and salvation were contradictions. Even in marriage, coitus was evil and unclean, Jerome thought, and married Christians should avoid sexual contact whenever possible. St. Gregory of Nyssa was still more emphatic: he taught that only those who renounced sex completely and led lives of unblemished virginity could attain spiritual perfection (13).

Such views as these owed as much to philosophy, particularly to Stoicism, as to religious teaching, and St. Jerome explicitly acknowledged in his treatise against Jovinian that he was drawing upon Stoic sources (14). But although fourth-hand fifth-century patristic writers borrowed heavily from pagan sexual ethics, they nevertheless sought to legitimize their borrowings by finding support for their conclusions in the Scriptures. This sometimes required ingenious feats of imaginative interpretation, but a Scriptural foundation for their ideas about sexuality seemed essential. (page 82)

13. Jerome, Adversus Jovinianum 1.13, 1.26, 1.28, in PL 23: 229-30, 246, 249; Gregory of Nyssa, De virginitate 2, in PG 46: 323-24; Bailey, Sexual Relation, pp. 45-46; JoAnn McNamara, "Cornelia's Daughters: Paula and Eustocium/' Women's Studies 11 (1984) 12- 13.
14. Jerome, Adv. Jov. 1.49, in PL 23:280-81; Aries, "L'amour dans Ie mariage," pp. 118-19; Philippe Delhaye, "Le dossier antimatrimonial de L’Adversus Jovinianum et son influence sur quelques ecrits latins du Xlle siecle," Mediaeval Studies 13 (1951) 68. Jerome found some strands of Stoic ethics so congenial that he numbered Seneca among the saints; De viris illustribus 12, in PL 23: 662. But his use of the Stoics was highly selective; Colish, Stoic Tradition 2: 70-81.
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If fourth- and fifth-century patristic writing about sexuality was almost exclusively negative, the Church Fathers were emphatically positive in their praise of virginity. The notion that virginity possessed singularly powerful, almost magical, virtues was, like deprecation of sexual pleasure, a belief with pagan antecedents. Patristic writers diligently searched the Scriptures in quest of support for their exaltation of virginity. Not surprisingly they found what they were searching for, especially in certain remarks of St. Paul. Relying on Paul's authority, patristic authors created a theology of virginity that portrayed the asexual life as the summit of Christian perfection (17).

But patristic sexual theories also owed more to heterodox teachings than orthodox writers cared to acknowledge. Gnostics and Manichaeans deeply influenced patristic theories of sexuality. The Manichaeans, whose beliefs Augustine had embraced as a youth, held that Adam and Eve knew no sexual desire, nor did they engage in intercourse, while they lived in Paradise. Human sexual organs are capable of coitus only when aroused by lust, they argued, and lust is a product of sin. Before the first sin, therefore, either there had been no sexual intercourse at all, or else arrangements for conceiving children must have been different than after the Fall from Grace (18). Jerome and many other patristic writers agreed with this analysis. Jerome understood the "innocence" of Adam and Eve primarily in sexual terms. Before the first sin there was no sex. The human race's first experience of sexual pleasure took place after expulsion from the Garden of Delights. (pages 83-84)

17. 1 Cor. 7: 1: "Bonum est homini mulierem non tangere," as well as 1 Cor. 7: 6-9, 25-27, and 29-36; also Gal. 5: 16-21 and Eph. 5: 3-4. See also Jerome, Adv. Jov. 1.41, in PL 23: 282; Bugge, Virginitas, pp. 68-69; Joyce E. Salisbury, "Fruitful in Singleness," JMH 8 (1982) 97. The only early Christian writer who dealt with marriage in an entirely positive and approving way was the obscure third-century poet, Commodianus; Colish, Stoic Tradition 2: 102.
18. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram 9.4.8, in PL 34:395-96; De nupt. et concup. 1.22.24,2.13.26,2.32.54, in CSEL 42:237,279,311-12; De civ. Dei 14.21,23, in CCL 48: 443-46; Bugge, Virginitas, p. 26; Miiller, Lehre, p. 22; Brown, Augustine of Hippo, pp. 388- 89; Cesar Vaca, "La sexualidad en San Agustin," in Augustinus magister, 3 vols. (Paris: Etudes augustiniennes, 1955) 2: 728; Rene Nelli, "La continence Cathare," in Mystique et continence, pp. 139-51.
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The Stoics presented special difficulties for patristic defenders of Christian orthodoxy, for while the Fathers certainly adopted some of their most dearly held beliefs from the Stoics, and were conscious that they did so, they also felt compelled to reject other Stoic teachings, such as the contention that all sins are equally serious.

Conversely, the Jovinians agreed with the Stoics in considering all moral faults equally grievous, but also denied that the ascetic life had any special claim to be the preeminent Christian path to salvation. The Jovinians thus denied that monks and other ascetics were more virtuous and deserving than ordinary married Christians who had frequent sexual intercourse and even enjoyed it (23). Jovinian's doctrine called forth one of the most blistering denunciations in all of patristic literature, the Adversus Jovinianum, in which St. Jerome savagely attacked Jovinian's beliefs. Indeed Jerome defended the celibate life so vigorously that he came close to condemning marriage. He also furnished generations of misogynist writers with a battery of elegant vituperation and ferocious mockery directed against the foibles and follies of women (24).

Patristic discussions of the place of sex in the Christian life are shot through with a fundamental ambivalence about the place of women in the scheme of salvation (25). Augustine agreed clearly and emphatically with other patristic writers in requiring that men observe the same norms of sexual conduct as women (26). At the same time, however, Augustine, like other patristic authors, considered women frankly inferior to men, both physically and morally. (pages 84-85)

23. Augustine, Epist. 167.4, in CSEL 44:591-92, and De haeresibus 82, in PL 42: 45-46; Delhaye, "Dossier antimatrimonial," p. 66.
24. Delhaye, "Dossier antimatrimonial," pp. 71-86; Colish, Stoic Tradition 2:79-81.
25. This ambivalence appears to be based upon the distinction between body and soul that was central to Augustine's concept of human nature. See esp. Kari Elisabeth Borrensen, Subordination and Equivalence: The Nature and Role of Women in Augustine and Thomas Aquinas (Washington: University Press of America, 1981), p. 339; Rosambert, Veuve, pp. 94-95; and see generally Margaret R. Miles, Augustine on the Body, American Academy of Religion Dissertation Series, no. 31 (Missoula, MT: Scholars Press, 1979)•
26. Ambrose, De Abraham 1.4.25, in PL 14: 431; Jerome, Epist. 77.3, in PL 22: 691; Caesarius of ArIes, Sermones 32.4, 142.3, ed. Germain Morin, 2 vols., CCL 103-4 (Turnhout: Brepols, 1953) 103: 142, 186-87; John Chrysostom, De verbis propter fornicationes 4, in PG 51: 214; Augustine, Serm. 9•4, 392.4-5, in PL 38: 78 and 39: 1711- 12; Brown, Augustine of Hippo, p. 248.
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Marriage, Augustine observed, was not morally wrong; indeed it even had certain positive values in the Christian scheme of things, for marriage produced children, it promoted mutual fidelity between the spouses, and it brought them together in a bond of love (44). Two of these praiseworthy objectives of marriage, Augustine was careful to note, could be attained despite, not because of, the sexual element in marriage. Marriage, he wrote, might even be glorified because it made something good out of the evil of sex (45). Sexual relations within marriage were a good use of an evil thing. Virginity, to be sure, was better, since that was a good use of a good thing. While marital relations were also good, they constituted a lesser order of good, because they employed the intrinsic wickedness of sex to achieve a morally valuable goal (46).

Augustine judged the morality of marital sex in terms of the intentions of the parties. When married persons had sex for the sole purpose of procreation, they committed no sin. If they had sexual relations for mutual pleasure and enjoyment, they sinned-but only slightly. If they had sexual relations in some way calculated to avoid procreation, however, they sinned gravely (47). Married couples, he thought, should cease having sex as soon as they had produced a child or two. The sooner they stopped marital relations, the better for their moral health (48). They would have been even more virtuous, of course, had they remained virgins; but once married, the less they yielded to sexual desire, the better. (page 89)

44. Augustine, De nupt. et concup. 1.17.19, in CSEL 42: 231.
45. Augustine, De nupt. et concup. 1.7.8, in CSEL 42: 219-20; De bono coniugali 3.3, in CSEL 41: 190-91.
46. Augustine, De peccatorum mentis 1.29.57, in PL 44: 142; De sancta virginitate 20.19, in CSEL 41: 253; Marie-Francois Berrouard, "Saint Augustin et l'indissolubilite du mariage: evolution de sa pensee," Recherches augustiniennes 5 (1968) 143.
47. Augustine, De nupt. et concup. 1.15.17, in CSEL 42: 229-30.
48. Augustine, De bono coniugali 3.3, in CSEL 41: 191.
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Since sex was a usual (and, in his view, a regrettable) feature of most marriages, Jerome and like-minded writers argued that couples had a moral obligation to limit marital relations to an absolute minimum. Jerome was bitterly critical of married men who loved their wives excessively. This was a "deformity," Jerome believed, and he cited with approval the Stoic writers Seneca and Sextus, who had declared that "A man who loves his wife too much is an adulterer." There can be little doubt in this context that Jerome identified love with sexual relations and that what he attacked so fiercely was immoderate indulgence in sex by married persons. Marital sex, Jerome thought, should be indulged in only very infrequently and then with sober calculation, not with hot desire. "Nothing," he asserted at one point, "is filthier than to have sex with your wife as you might do with another woman (51)."

In this remarkable statement, which was to attract so much attention from so many medieval writers on marriage, Jerome had in mind qualitative as well as quantitative criteria for determining when marital sex was "excessive." He was denouncing not only too frequent marital intercourse, but also coital techniques and postures of which he disapproved (52). Up to a point Augustine agreed with Jerome's strictures against "excessive" marital sex. Certainly he believed that married folk should curb their carnal desires; they ought to avoid arousing one another sexually; they ought to limit their lovemaking to proper times and places (53). Intercourse during pregnancy, for example, he considered shameful in the extreme. But, he added, however immodest, shameful, and sordid the sex acts that married persons committed with each other, these were faults of the individuals, not blemishes attached to the institution of marriage (54). (pages 90-91)

51. Jerome, Adv. Jov. 1.49, in PL 23: 281, relying on Sextus, Sententiae 231, ed. Chadwick, pp. 38-39; Fulgentius, Epist. 1.4, in CCL gl: 190; Jean-Louis Flandrin, Families: parente, maison, sexualite dans rancienne societe (Paris: Hachette, 1976), p. 157.
52. James A. Brundage, "Let Me Count the Ways: Canonists and Theologians Contemplate Coital Positions," JMH 10 (lg84) 82; Jean-Louis Flandrin, Le sexe et roccident (Paris: Seuil, 1981), pp. 11g-20.
53. Augustine, Contra Julianum 3.14.28, in PL 44: 716-17.
54. Augustine, De bono coniugali 6.5, in CSEL 41: 194; De nupt. et concup. 1.24.27, in CSEL 42 :239-4°'
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Patristic writers assumed, as Roman law did, that consent made marriage. They rejected the notion that consummation was an essential part of marriage. It made no difference whether a couple ever went to bed together; so long as they consented to marry one another, that was what counted (63). If consummation was not essential, it might follow that sexual impotence constituted no reason for holding a marriage invalid, and Augustine at any rate seems to have subscribed to this view (64). (page 92)

63. Augustine, De consensu evangelistarum 2.1.2, in CSEL 43: 82; De nupt. et concup.1.11.12, in CSEL 42: 224; Ambrose, De institutione virginis 6.41, in PL 16: 316; D'ErcoIe, "Consenso," p. 28; Jean Gaudemet, "Indissolubilite et consommation du marriage: rapport d'Hincmar de Reims," RDC 30 (1980) 29; William Joseph Dooley, Marriage according to St. Ambrose, Studies in Christian Antiquity, no. 11 (Washington: Catholic University of America, 1948), pp. 1-2.
64. Augustine, De bono coniugali 7.7, 15.17, in CSEL 41: 196-97, 209-10; Josef Lamer, Die Storingen des geschlechtlichen Vermogens in der Literatur der auctoritativen Theologie des Mittelalters: Ein Beitrag zur Geschichte der Impotenz und des medizinischen Sachverstiindigenbeweises im kanonischen Impotenzprozess, Abhandlungen der Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Mainz, Literatur, geistes- und sozialwissenschaftlichen Klasse (1958), no. 6 (Mainz: Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur, 1958), p. 300.
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The marital debt created a parity of rights and obligations between the spouses. Each had an equal right to demand that it be paid; each had an equal obligation to comply with the other's demands. Equality of the sexes in marriage meant equality in the marriage bed, but not outside of it (69). Just as each spouse was entitled to sexual service from the other on demand, so each was entitled to require sexual fidelity from the other. Neither had a right to seek sexual fulfillment outside of marriage, even if the other party was, for example, absent or ill and thus sexually unavailable (70). Cessation of marital relations did not break the bond of marriage, just as the beginning of sexual relations was irrelevant to the contracting of marriage (71). The evident aim of patristic matrimonial theory was to separate marriage as far as possible from its sexual component, defining it as a contractual union, separate and distinct from the sexual union of the married persons. (page 93)

69. Augustine, Epist. 262, in CSEL 57: 621-31; Borresen, Subordination and Equivalence, p. 104; Berrouard, "Saint Augustin et L'indissolubilite," p. 141.
70. Caesarius of ArIes, Serm. 43.7, in CCL 103: 193-94.
71. Augustine, De nupt. et concup. 1.11.12, in CSEL 42: 224.
 
Restating your assumptions is a waste of time. And I certainly don't see the point of discussing other verses when you have made your "interpretation methods" pretty clear with this very simple one. FH already tried to show you that the same verses lead to a completely different conclusion when read when read without your own spin. The keyboard burnouts are a waste of everyone's time. Especially when they are based on a complete rejection of the hermeneutical process.

When I read them, I just see the same preconceived ideas rehashed over and over again. I think everyone else does too. The bedrock foundation of everything you say can be traced back to your assumption. I've said before that I don't really believe you're that blind to what you're doing, but maybe you honestly are. As I said, If anyone here thinks what you're saying has merit, I'm sure they would say so and we would discuss whatever point needed to be discussed. Otherwise, a glut of words doesn't change simple truths.
 
How odd.

My takeaways from 1 Cor. 7 is that celibacy is good, but requires a special gift from God. The gift of not really being drawn by sexual matters, I suppose.

However Paul concedes that some people don't have that gift, and to attempt celibacy without that gift opens one up to temptation by Satan.

His solution is that men marry, and that the married couple engage in COPIOUS amounts of sex. He only allows the sexing to stop for the purposes of prayer, and then right back to the sexing.

Augustine was right about never really mastering sexual desire, I assume, because Scripture never commands us to 'master' it. Sex isn't the evil that Augustine imagined, it was in fact the biblical diet to prevent to prevent the evils that an unsatisfied sex drive leaves one open to.

I think it possible that men like Augustine and Jerome may have been partakers of the divine gift of celibacy, but maybe forgot to extend courtesy towards their less gifted brethren. It would be like saying that to lack an incomprehensible prayer language was a serious sin.
 
Slumberfreeze

It really started with money. Rome was bleeding financially and a forfeiture law was passed that made all pagan temples, along with all their sacred idols and objects and any income they had forfeit to the government. What's a pagan priest to do? Go get baptized, change the sign on the pagan temple to indicate it's a church and now the forfeiture law doesn't apply. Call that pagan idol an icon to commemorate a dead saint. Yeah, that's it. A votive statue. On an individual level, the solution to the persecution was to get baptized and join the church.

Augustine came from the Manicheans, Jerome came from the Stoics and both of them brought a boat-load of those beliefs into the church. They were not ignorant or unintelligent in any way and their eventual rise to leadership within the church should come as no surprise, but their beliefs were not in any way based on Scripture. Jerome and his guys were the MGTOW of their day. Seriously, get a good translation of "Against Jovian" that has explanatory notes and read it. You'll recognize a lot of current MGTOW arguments in it. "If I needed a loyal companion I'd be better off with a dog than a woman!"

The thing is, while Paul kind of danced around the subject of celibacy (he never actually called it a gift) Jesus was very blunt about it and He didn't call it a gift either. After the episode with the Pharisees in Matthew 19 the Disciples said "Wow- if it's like that between a man and a woman, it's better not to get married." Look at how Jesus responded. He said some men were born eunuchs, some men were made eunuchs by men and some men chose to become eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Not everyone can accept that. Because He was talking about voluntary castration. Was He being literal or metaphorical? Either way, He was saying that if one had the proper equipment the only legitimate reason to opt out of the command to be fruitful and multiply was in order to focus on the great commission. Likewise, however, He didn't say it was in any way a requirement for the pursuit of ministry.

It would probably blow the minds of most modern Christians, but more than a few members of the early church took those words literally and some castrated themselves. Origen is probably the most famous, but that didn't play well with Roman culture and the church officially frowned on that sort of thing. Origen was eventually declared a heretic long after his death for reasons that had nothing to do with castration, but his "drastic misinterpretation" of Matthew 19:12 didn't help his cause. The context of what Jesus said in Matthew 19:11-13 was the instruction He'd just given that was based on the Law of Marriage (Genesis 2:24), which is the law that implements the first command- be fruitful and multiply. That's why the whole MGTOW thing is contrary to the command of God. In fact, there is a good argument that based on what Jesus said, it is only a commitment to the kingdom that is a justifiable excuse for a man not getting married and having children.

The whole thing with MGTOW today is that it's actually presented correctly- as direct disobedience to the first command. The claim marriage has been corrupted to the point that it's no longer functional is hilarious because there is literally nothing the state can do with a polygynous marriage. Literally, nothing. They can't recognize it as a marriage (contrary to public policy) so there can be no divorce and all that entails. Meister v Moore (1878) says you don't have to get a marriage license because marriage is a fundamental right and that ruling still holds. Without multiple marriage licenses, the bigamy statutes don't apply, which was foundational to the Brown case a few years ago. Polygyny is now the most durable and stable form of marriage any Christian man can have. And yet the popular conception is that it's all about sex.

Which brings us full circle back to sex is a good thing.
 
MGTOW never appealed to me enough to look seriously at them. possibly because for me Stoicism is a hobby, but Hedonism is serious business.

At the risk of inviting a wall of text though, are you meaning to say that Paul had made himself a eunuch by removing his equipment, or that he born without them?

I really do believe Paul in 1 Cor 7:7 refers to "the way he was" as a gift from God that he wishes other men had. Otherwise what gift was he talking about?

Is he talking about being born without testes or possessing the will to be voluntarily castrated as his gift?
 
Slumberfreeze said:
are you meaning to say that Paul had made himself a eunuch by removing his equipment, or that he born without them?

I really do believe Paul in 1 Cor 7:7 refers to "the way he was" as a gift from God that he wishes other men had. Otherwise what gift was he talking about?

Is he talking about being born without testes or possessing the will to be voluntarily castrated as his gift?

First, I believe Jesus was speaking metaphorically and literally, depending on who was listening. Essentially saying that some men were born without the capacity, some men had the capacity taken away from them, and some men choose to remove that capacity from themselves in order to further the Kingdom of heaven.

By using the term "eunuch" Jesus is stating an absolute and unquestioned standard, but He isn't telling people to castrate themselves and I think what He was talking about is best epitomized by the Apostle Paul.

I believe Paul was referring to wishing others could be like he was in terms of committed self control, choosing to focus on the things of the Lord rather than the things of the world. So, no, I do not believe in any way that Paul castrated himself or was born malformed in any way. He could not have held the position he did had he been born without testes.

I have a brother who is a computer programmer with a focus that is so much like a laser that it's mind-boggling. That kind of focus is a gift and I think Paul is speaking of the same kind of intense focus and dedication that precludes any sexual relationship. He and Jesus are in complete agreement that the eunuch is the standard of behavior- because eunuch''s don't have sex. At. All. So, if somebody can't handle that, get married and tear it up.
 
FollowingHim said:
"The suggestion that a woman who consents to sex may be freed from marriage by her father, but the woman who is raped is stuck with the marriage and her father can do nothing about it, I believe is highly questionable. This is based on two key assumptions: (1) Deuteronomy 22:28-29 refers to rape, and (2) in that situation Exodus 22:16-17 is not applicable.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is a judgment concerning Numbers 30:3-5, not a judgment concerning Genesis 2:24. The first issue of Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not rape but the lack of consent, as evidenced by rape. The two are not the same. The second issue is not whether Exodus 22:16-17 is applicable but whether Numbers 30:5 is applicable

The Law of Vows (Numbers 30) gives the father the absolute unquestioned right, on hearing of any vow or agreement with binding obligations his daughter has made to review it and decide to either accept it or reject it. If he says nothing (silence=assent) then the vow or agreement stands. If he chooses, however, he may nullify that vow or agreement and with it any binding obligations that follow.

In keeping with Genesis 3:16 ("he shall rule over you") Numbers 30 demonstrates that the woman in her youth in her father's house is unquestionably under his authority and she can make no vow or agreement not subject to his review. When she marries all such decisions are then subject to review by her husband and should her husband disagree with what her father allowed he is free to annul that.

But, what happens if the father is presented with a fait accompli and finds his daughter married? Is it truly a fait accompli, or does Numbers 30:5 operate as a clawback provision?

The real issue is a conflict of laws, which results in a conflict of rights between the husband and the father of the wife. The question answered in Exodus 22:16-16 is whether a man can bypass the fathers' authority over his daughter by seducing her and entering into marriage with her, which now places him in a superior position to her than him because with her marriage her father is no longer in authority over her. In fact, lacking an agreement and the marriage already accomplished, by what right can the father demand payment of the dowry?

So, the question is asked, how is this dichotomy to be handled? Should Genesis 2:24 be absolute in that once a marriage is formed it cannot be annulled? Or does the fact that the father did not have the opportunity to exercise his rights under Numbers 30:5 to annul any agreement or vow his daughter makes that results in the binding obligations of marriage mean he can still exercise that authority in the day he hears of it? And what about the dowry? If the father has the authority to exercise his right to annul this agreement with obligations (marriage) then does he have the right to collect a dowry for his daughter who is now no longer a virgin?

Those are the questions that were answered by Exodus 22:16-17. Yes, he seduced her and they are married. He has to pay the bride price. But if her father refuses to allow this, exercising his right to annul the marriage that has already been created, he may do so and the man still owes an amount equal to the price for virgins. Numbers 30 does not prevent the marriage from happening, but with an agreement by his daughter the father has an actionable claim he can use to annul the marriage.

So, with that in mind, what happens if the woman made no agreement? What if the action of marriage was against her will and over her objections and without the permission of her father? Does the Law of Vows give the father the right to annul a decision that his daughter never made? Those are the questions that Deuteronomy 22:28-29 answered.

For modern-day Christians, this particular case settles the question of whether sex and sex alone will make one married.


FollowingHim said:
"1) Deuteronomy 22:28-29 only refers to rape if the word "taphas" (H8610), translated "lay hold" [of her], necessarily refers to the forceful rape of an unwilling woman. The word itself doesn't mean this. It just means to hold onto something - or even to overlay such as with gold. It may imply to hold onto something very firmly, it is often used elsewhere to refer to taking over cities by force etc, but also simply to holding onto a harp to play it.

On the contrary, when rape is intended, a different word is used. Just two verses earlier, v26 refers to a man who "forces" a woman. This word is "chazaq" (H2388), and very specifically refers to forcing through strength. If v28 also refers to rape, why doesn't it use the word "chazaq"? Why is the weaker word "taphas" used?

We cannot assume that v28 necessarily refers to rape. It may just refer to a man holding a woman to have sex with her. It says nothing about force or consent."

You said: "1) Deuteronomy 22:28-29 only refers to rape if the word "taphas" (H8610), translated "lay hold" [of her], necessarily refers to the forceful rape of an unwilling woman."

The first problem is you are defining rape as only that which is done when described by the word "chazaq" and thus defining consent as the absence of rape. The second is you are ignoring the verdict of the text which states the man "violated" her, the exact same word used to describe what the man in verse 24 did which was described using "chazaq"

Your comparative language argument also ignores the status differences the two women have. One is a wife, the other is a virgin not engaged. I believe it is a mistake to assume the type of force used against a married woman to get her to have sex must be the same type of force used against a virgin not engaged. The underlying assumption is that in the absence of the physical force necessary to rape a married woman, that a virgin is somehow not being forced by coercion or duress, and thus consents to the marriage. That cannot be, especially when we see that in both cases he violated her.

We already know that a woman may be married without her consent and in the absence of any form of commitment on her part from the testimony of the Law. Note, however, that in these examples the marriage either takes place with the consent of the father or in the absence of her father (war bride).

(Exodus 21:7-11) Consider that the father has the authority to sell his daughter (her consent is unnecessary) into slavery to be another man's wife. When the act of marriage is completed she is his wife and she never consented or agreed to anything. One might ask, where is the force? In answer, look at the entire societal structure that recognizes the owners right to his slave and the owners right to punish a disobedient slave. He has total control of her. Does everyone understand what Stockholm syndrome is and how it results from being totally at the mercy of someone and forced to rely on them for survival?

But, it gets worse.

(Exodus 21:3-4) Let's back up a few verses and look at the action. We have a male servant and his master has given him a wife. She has born him sons and daughters and the text is at all times very clear that she is his wife. However, if he chooses to take his freedom his master is in no way required to release his wife and children to go out with him. The master is not prevented from allowing him to redeem his wife, but his master is not required to allow it either. What we see then, is not the authority of the master to annul the marriage for the text does not speak of that, but rather to retain ownership of his property. They are most definitely married but if the husband chooses to leave he does not get to keep his wife and children. They belong to the master.

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14) Consider that when a woman is captured in war and one of the men desires her, he takes her, forces her to shave her head, cut off her nails and takes her clothes away. In order to cover her nakedness she receives clothing from him, the clothing he wants her to wear. She's given a month to mourn her father and brothers and then he can have sex with her and she is his wife. There is no indication of consent or commitment or agreement. This passage actually lists some noteworthy techniques used to break people. He isn't shaving her head, trimming her nails or removing her clothing: she is. He requires her to do it (submit to self-humiliation) and in doing so she forces herself to recognize his authority over her. Does anyone believe there is any consent or commitment here? Again, Stockholm syndrome? Does anyone not see that there is absolutely no commitment or consent that isn't coerced under duress?

In all these cases the authority of the father under Numbers 30 is not an issue because with the first two the father approved of any subsequent marriage when he sold his daughter to be married and in the third the father is dead. But what if the woman did not consent and the father is present and he did not consent either? What are his rights? Is rape a crime because of the use of force, or a crime because of the lack of consent? Obviously it's the lack of consent. Statutory rape is a crime because the child is deemed to be too young to have the capacity to consent regardless of their willing and enthusiastic consent for the act.

The point of Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is that it isn't about rape but rather about how to deal with a marriage that has been initiated without the consent of the woman or her father. The linguistic argument revolving around the difference between "taphas" (H8610) and "chazaq" (H2388) misses this point by confusing the different statuses of the women involved and ignores the fact that the text describes both as a violation. Why would anyone claim that a woman can only be raped if violent physical force is used? Is a woman who is kidnapped and gently coerced into having sex through the use of fear any less raped than a woman who is knocked unconscious prior to being undressed? Did she provide any more consent than the unconscious woman? That argument begs the question of what consent actually consists of.

Let's look at what the text says:

“If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days."

The key elements:
She is a virgin, not engaged. Meaning, there are no binding vows that would prohibit her marriage to the man who took her virginity without her consent.
(Eligibility to marry is critical here)

She loses her virginity in the act of marriage. She is married according to Genesis 2:24.

They were discovered. Meaning, their discovery provided 3rd party evidence that the woman did not engage in the sex willingly and thus did not consent. (This is the key point of the ruling- they must be discovered)

She shall become his wife. They had sex, they're married. This is stated as the imperative in the same way as "shall leave" and shall cleave" and "shall become" in Genesis 2:24. There is no wiggle room. This isn't seen in Exodus 22:16-17 because the father can annul the marriage. Here we see it.

Because he has violated her he can never divorce her all his days.

The last is the key, because the term used is "‘in•nāh" (the Hebrew term "anah" H6031) and ‘in•nāh is the exact same term used in verse 24, which describes why the man is being put to death. So, the physical act of "taphas" with a virgin and "chazaq" with a married woman are both described as "‘in•nāh" (violated) in the corresponding text. When used in a sexual context, the word "anah" (H6031) is also used to describe:

The rape of Dinah by Shechem (Genesis 34:2)
The rape of Tamar by Amnon, twice (2nd Samuel 13:14; 22)
The woman sold into marriage by her father. (Exodus 21:14)
The woman captured in war and made a wife (Deuteronomy 21:14)
The Levite's concubine who was raped to death (Judges 20:5)


Please, let's not have another "dabaq" fight over the meaning of the word "taphas" when we know the act it is describing is rape, one way or another, because in all of these examples the notable point is the lack of consent by the woman. Unless someone wants to claim the concubine volunteered...

Absent any agreement, the father (who would be highly motivated to annul such a marriage) has no authority under Numbers 30:5 because that authority was not specific to marriage but only to agreements his daughter might make, of which a marriage agreement is only a subset.

The marriage stands because absent an agreement the father has no standing to challenge the marriage and their discovery is the evidence she did not agree.

Notice that the text says nothing about what happens if they are not discovered. In that case, lacking evidence she was truly force the father could assume some form of agreement and annul the marriage if he chose to do so in accordance with Exodus 22:16-17.

The problem many people have is they look at that and then they look at Judges 21 and misunderstand what they're seeing.

The major issue in the background of Judges 21 is the women of Israel were not eligible to marry any Benjamite because their fathers took a vow. Remember that the first element listed in Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is the woman was a virgin not engaged. In other words, she was available for marriage to any eligible man. In the case of Judges 21, the Benjamites were not eligible to marry the women because the fathers took a vow forbidding it. The text demonstrates that, as well as how the problem was solved.

"And the people were sorry for Benjamin because the Lord had made a breach in the tribes of Israel. Then the elders of the congregation said, “What shall we do for wives for those who are left, since the women are destroyed out of Benjamin?” 17 They said, “There must be an inheritance for the survivors of Benjamin, so that a tribe will not be blotted out from Israel. But we cannot give them wives of our daughters.” For the sons of Israel had sworn, saying, “Cursed is he who gives a wife to Benjamin.”

So they said, “Behold, there is a feast of the Lord from year to year in Shiloh, which is on the north side of Bethel, on the east side of the highway that goes up from Bethel to Shechem, and on the south side of Lebonah.” And they commanded the sons of Benjamin, saying, “Go and lie in wait in the vineyards, and watch; and behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to take part in the dances, then you shall come out of the vineyards and each of you shall catch his wife from the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin. It shall come about, when their fathers or their brothers come to complain to us, that we shall say to them, ‘Give them to us voluntarily, because we did not take for each man of Benjamin a wife in battle, nor did you give them to them, else you would now be guilty.’” The sons of Benjamin did so, and took wives according to their number from those who danced, whom they carried away. And they went and returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the cities and lived in them. The sons of Israel departed from there at that time, every man to his tribe and family, and each one of them went out from there to his inheritance.

Compare this to Deuteronomy 22:28-29. They were told to lie in wait for the virgins, then seize one and carry her home to their land. They did so and they "took wives" according to their number and carried them away to the land of Benjamin.

FollowingHim expressed doubts about this passage, expressing the possibility that the fathers still had the authority to annul their marriages even after they'd been raped.. Note what the elders said to the men of Benjamin:

"It shall come about, when their fathers or their brothers come to complain to us, that we shall say to them, ‘Give them to us voluntarily, because we did not take for each man of Benjamin a wife in battle, nor did you give them to them, else you would now be guilty.’”

The issue here was that the men had taken a vow to not give the men of Benjamin a wife. The elders are saying that they will explain to the fathers that they (the elders) will bear their guilt for the men of Benjamin having taken their daughters as wives. Implied is that if the fathers or brothers cannot accept that, they will have to try to get the women back on their own and the rest of Israel won't help them.

Rather than calling into question the fathers authority to annul any agreement his daughter makes, this passage actually illustrates the extent of the father's authority under Numbers 30 because the fathers took a vow forbidding any Benjamite to marry their daughter. It's the same thing as when the father vows that only a single man (the subject of the betrothal agreement) may marry his daughter and all others are forbidden. So, rather than calling into question the fathers authority to annul the marriage in the absence of consent we see this as a different application of fathers rights over their daughters.

And the text presents it that way. The fathers had a valid claim of authority to annul the marriages if they so chose and so the elders agreed they would assume the guilt of the fathers who had their vow violated when the Benjamites took their daughters as wives. In the end, the fathers were presented with a fait accompli and with the elders offering to assume their guilt it was obviously enough. And notice that the passage definitely identifies these women as wives. The issue of the woman's consent or commitment is never an issue.
 
"Conflict of laws"

Lol.

A conflict that only exists when you make huge assumptions and then change the meaning of scripture to suit them. And then a 20,000 word essay is necessary to try and justify it all. Which, upon being read, relies solely on the reader just going along with the assumption you gave them in the first place.

Reading the scripture for what it is, there is no copy and pasting massive text blocks necessary.

It's pretty straightforward.

And this is a forum where most people are prone to take their messages from scripture, not insert their messages into it.
 
I read much of this debate but may have missed a passage. I'd like to ask your opinion. From what I gather of your discussion, the definition of marriage based on comments in this Gen 2:24 thread is:

1) Leave family.
2) Cleave (Make a commitment).
3) One flesh (Have sex).

However, my conclusion is that #3 goes well beyond sex, but the formation of a new familial bond with all that entails. My belief is based on the same Hebrew word (flesh) being used in the following verses:
Genesis 29:14-15 And Laban said to him, "Surely you are my bone and my flesh." And he stayed with him for a month. (15) Then Laban said to Jacob, "Because you are my relative, should you therefore serve me for nothing? Tell me, what should your wages be?"
Gen 37:27 Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him, for he is our brother and our flesh."
Lev 25:49 or his uncle or his uncle's son may redeem him; or anyone who is near of kin (flesh) to him in his family may redeem him; or if he is able he may redeem himself.
Judges 9:1-2 Then Abimelech the son of Jerubbaal went to Shechem, to his mother's brothers, and spoke with them and with all the family of the house of his mother's father, saying, (2) "Please speak in the hearing of all the men of Shechem: 'Which is better for you, that all seventy of the sons of Jerubbaal reign over you, or that one reign over you?' Remember that I am your own flesh and bone."
2Sa 5:1 and 1Ch 11:1 Then all the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and spoke, saying, "Indeed we are your bone and your flesh."
2Sa 19:12 You are my brethren, you are my bone and my flesh.
2Sa 19:13 And say to Amasa, 'Are you not my bone and my flesh?

The additional scope of "flesh" would mean that marriage is:
1) Leave current family.
2) Cleave (Husband and wife commit).
3) One flesh (Become a new family unit).

To me, this summary makes the most sense. When Jesus said in Matthew 19:6 "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate," He's not saying that a husband and wife should walk around in continual consummation, but in continual familial commitment which cannot be broken. Divorce also makes more sense as the destruction of a family, not just the cessation of sex -- and it is easier to see why God hates it so much. It also explains the prostitution/fornication/adultery passages as a rejection of God's design, it allows for plural marriage, explains the symbol of Christ and His bride (Ezek 23, Jer 3:14, Rev 21:2) more accurately, and it dovetails with the adoption of believers as sons in Romans 8-9, Gal 4, and Ephesians 1.

While sex is important, our society places much more emphasis on it than it should. What do you think?
 
Hi Joe

Essentially this debate has revolved around two different takes on Genesis 2:24. Yours is one of them:

The man leaves (status change- he becomes the head of his new family)
The man cleaves (commitment / ceremony of marriage)
The two become one flesh (sex)

That is the traditional model and it's what the church has been preaching for the last 1500 years. I advanced the position that it's incorrect for a number of reasons, one of which is that Scripture shows a lot of examples in which women are married in the total absence of commitment or consent, with nothing but the act of sex.

My last post was an exegesis of Deuteronomy 22:28-29, which illustrates this, but my position is as follows:

the man leaves (status change, no longer under authority of Mother and Father)
The man cleaves (consummation of the marriage- they have sex)
The two become one flesh (this is what God does- as Christ said in Matthew 19)

Jason made an elaborate argument that the "shall cleave" element of Genesis 2:24 absolutely must be a commitment because no other passage in scripture uses the word "dabaq" to describe sex in Hebrew. Since there is no other passage that uses the word "dabaq" to describe sex, it cannot mean sex and must mean commitment.

That's a problem for two reasons. The first is that everyone is in agreement that all three elements of Genesis 2:24 must exist in order for there to be a marriage. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 describes a woman being raped and if they are discovered, she is married to the man. The second problem is back to the word "dabaq" because when Christ quoted Genesis 2:24, the word He used in Greek to translate the word "dabaq" into Greek is the same word the Apostle Paul used to describe the act of having sex with a prostitute in 1st Corinthians 6:16. So we do have the word "dabaq" as it is contextually used in Genesis 2:24 being used to describe sex.

The thing is, commitment is not an element of marriage. If it was, without commitment a woman could not be married. This does not match scripture:

Scripture tells us that the women sold by their fathers into slavery to be married are wives. There is no indication they consented to this. (Exodus 21:7:14)
Scripture tells us that the women captured on the battlefield and forcibly married are wives. Women taken on the battlefield obviously did not consent. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
Scripture tells us that the women who are discovered being raped "shall become his wife" and obviously she did not consent to the marriage. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

With that, we can see that either the word "dabaq" doesn't mean commitment or the "shall cleave" element of Genesis 2:24 isn't necessary.

I believe the "shall cleave" element is required and I have been arguing that the "shall cleave" portion is the consummation of the marriage because Christ specifically quoted Genesis 2:24, said "they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." Ergo, the third element of Genesis 2:24 is not the action of the man, it is the action of God. The structure of the text supports that as well. The process of elimination means that if God is the actor making them one flesh, then the consummation must occur in the "shall cleave."

Of the three elements, the only visible physical act is the sex, and that means that sex with an eligible virgin means you're married to her.
 
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