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Divorce and adultery

Zec, c'mon. How on earth do you think harlotry is different from prostitution?

Harlot comes from an Italian word for a person of low birth, and means: a woman who sells the use her body for money.
Prostitute comes from Latin for to offer for sale, and means: a woman who sells the use of her body for money.
Whore comes from an old Anglo-Saxon word for adultery(!), and means: a woman who sells the use of her body for money.
Hooker, best anyone can tell, does not come from the camp followers of US General Joe Hooker, but may have come from the practice of thieves in England snatching goods out of windows with a hook, and means: a woman who sells the use of her body for money.
Streetwalker, call girl, etc, etc....

Anyway, I'd be interested in any references you have supporting the idea that harlotry is something else. (That is, something other than ritual temple prostitution and the general worship of false gods that harlotry/prostitution/whoredoms serve as a metaphor for.)

I'm trying to remember why this is important in the context of this thread, and I just can't, and I'm not going to comb back through 40 posts to figure it out. It feels like we're hashing out a law/grace discussion using porneia as a proxy, and I think we can agree to disagree and it. Say whatever you want to say in response, I'm not going to reply, because I want to try to give MichaelZ his thread back. It's all good, love you, but I think we need to move on.
 
andrew said:
Mojo, let's go have a beer. :cool:

Zec, you're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Check some Greek sources. The word meant harlotry/prostitution in the first century. It was used mostly to translate Hebrew words for prostitution/harlotry in the LXX. The etymology is just a cherry on top, and helps explain why the other stuff is what it is.
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As long as it's Root, I'm all in.

I'm not conceding, but in all honesty....I don't really care who's right!

Don't unzip your pants with anyone not your wife, and it'll end well with you.
 
It leads in to law vs grace but that's not the point. When I came into the conversation porneia was being discussed. I disagreed with what was being said. I still do.

And every definition I can find of harlotry is broader than prostitution.
 
ZecAustin said:
It leads in to law vs grace but that's not the point. When I came into the conversation porneia was being discussed. I disagreed with what was being said. I still do.

And every definition I can find of harlotry is broader than prostitution.
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I tend to agree with you, but just based on impressions and distant recollections. If possible, can you provide evidence so I don't feel foolish and old for forgetting?
 
I think part of the confusion here is from the evolution of the words due to cultural pressures. Once upon a time, there were reputable women and disreputable women. It was important for a woman to be seen as sexually pure, and to be unchaste was to risk (a large risk) basically coming out from under the protection of any one man. About the equivalent of a man becoming an 'outlaw' (i.e., outside the protection of the law, and fair game for anyone else to take advantage of). That being the case, the main asset a cast-out woman would have was her body, so a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do to get by....

As our culture has become progressively sluttier, I mean liberated, we've lost that correlation, that chicken-and-egg thing, between prostitution and sexual immorality generally, because unchaste women don't almost automatically become cast out prostitutes (as that word is understood today), and more and more sexual "liberation" is no longer seen as "immoral". So I think we have a hard time getting our heads around usages and definitions that are "out of date". Or are they?...
 
MichaelZ said:
Mat 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.

Mark 10:11 And he said to them, Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.

Luke 16:18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

It's easy to me to understand that if a man divorce his wife and his wife marry again, the wife commits adultery and the man MAKES his wife commit adultery, according to Mat 5:32.

I wonder if anyone can explain to me that why all other verses say that the man who divorce his wife commit adultery by himself?
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Adultery

1. conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication. Adultery was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin.

2. Idolatry, covetousness, and apostasy are spoken of as adultery spiritually ( Jeremiah 3:6 Jeremiah 3:8 Jeremiah 3:9 ; Ezekiel 16:32 ; Hosea 1:2:3; ; Revelation 2:22 ). An apostate church is an adulteress ( Isaiah 1:21 ; Ezek. Isaiah 23:4 Isaiah 23:7 Isaiah 23:37 ), and the Jews are styled "an adulterous generation" ( Matthew 12:39 ). (Compare Revelation 12 .)

This is just my opinion but the second definition is what He is speaking of.

apostasy

: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith

: abandonment of a previous loyalty
 
MichaelZ said:
Mat 5:32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mat 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.
Mark 10:11 And he said to them, Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.
Luke 16:18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
It's easy to me to understand that if a man divorce his wife and his wife marry again, the wife commits adultery and the man MAKES his wife commit adultery, according to Mat 5:32.
I wonder if anyone can explain to me that why all other verses say that the man who divorce his wife commit adultery by himself?
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Don't we have to use the same approach as the words on the cross? Putting all the above verses together in a similar way would give:

But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery,
or whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery against her.
ie AGAINST the original wife NOT WITH the new one.

the exceptive clause is relevant because the man would not/could not make his wife an adulteress if she already was one.

I take this as a commentary on Malachi 2:10-17 "Against her" being "against the wife of their youth".
the Jews in Christ's day prided themselves on being sons of Abraham. Malachi 2 basically illustrates Christ's unspoken point if you SONS of Abraham think you are so special, how dare you treat the DAUGHTERS of Abraham like that?

Would like to know if anyone else thinks Malachi 2 is relevant to "against her" in Mark 10:11 and part of the argument.
 
ZecAustin said:
Yes. But it will be Saturday.
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Well, I waited for Saturday, Zec, and now it's Tuesday, albeit not the Tuesday immediately after your promised Saturday.

I'm going to further muddy your porneia definition, because all I can do is refer to a series of blog postings by Martin Zender, in which, if my memory is correct, he thoroughly documented the extent to which porneia was, at the time of New Testament writings, almost exclusively defined as engaging in cult prostitution. The word was not just applied to the women offering up their bodies for sale; it was also applied to their clients. The thing to remember, though, is that the primary transgression in porneia was not sexual transgression. The primary transgression was committing a grievous disrespect to God, because the practice of cult prostitution was not just a matter of men paying for sex -- it was a blatant intention to create a bond between (a) the men who engaged in it and (b) the false gods they were required to pay allegiance to in order to get access to the cult prostitutes. Porneia was condemned because it was idolatry, and it represented committing adultery against God Himself.

andrew said:
The word has an etymological sense and working definition from 1st century usage that is pretty specific. I choose to let it say what it says and not try to get it to say more than it says.
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Amen.

NetWatchR said:
The issue i've read with this verse comes from the bait and switch use of divorce and put away. The english translations occasionally use these terms interchangeably but they really aren't. A man who puts away (kicked out but not lawfully divorced) his wife causes her to commit adultery.
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And I want to thank @IshChayil, @MichaelZ and @NetWatchR (and anyone else I've missed) who brought the distinction between 'divorce' and 'putting away' to my attention.

In my way of thinking, the whole question of whether divorce is acceptable in God's eyes is much more of a matter of whether one can do so with Jesus's new Second Commandment in mind (loving everyone with whom one associates as one would have oneself be loved) than it is a matter of properly defining what kind of sexual sin it might be.
 
Keith Martin said:
....
In my way of thinking, the whole question of whether divorce is acceptable in God's eyes is much more of a matter of whether one can do so with Jesus's new Second Commandment in mind (loving everyone with whom one associates as one would have oneself be loved) than it is a matter of properly defining what kind of sexual sin it might be.
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Yes brother the “love your fellow as you love yourself” from Leviticus 19 (not new from Yeshua) is a doozy. To be fair it’s the catch-all command that would condemn us all outside of His blood.
I have never met anyone able to obey this command. As a famous rabbi puts it “if your kids are in a burning building and so are the kids of your neighbor...” well you guys see where it goes.
It would not be too difficult to use that commandment as a weapon against polygamy since most wives aren’t super psyched to share their husband.
Im certain you were thinking of Yeshua’s similar command “love one another as I have loved you.” It seems another of His expansions on existing commands (hate brother, look at married woman lustfully, etc).
(Typed on tab with thumbs sorry in advance)
 
Quartus said:
Don't we have to use the same approach as the words on the cross? Putting all the above verses together in a similar way would give:...
I take this as a commentary on Malachi 2:10-17 "Against her" being "against the wife of their youth".
the Jews in Christ's day prided themselves on being sons of Abraham. Malachi 2 basically illustrates Christ's unspoken point if
you SONS of Abraham think you are so special, how dare you treat the DAUGHTERS of Abraham like that?
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In all friendliness, realizing this is just part of the "protesting Catholics" culture,
maybe "the Jews in Christ's day" were not monolithic. Maybe all of the first believers (almost) were "Jews of Christ's day" some of them actually wrote the entire New Testament.
I'm going to assume you meant "some of the Pharisees" in lieu of "the Jews".

Regarding feeling special … most folks are proud to have an ancestor who did something significant (sons of the American revolution, daughter of the Alamo, etc.)

In the words of @Verifyveritas76
"peace, love, and fuzziness"
:)
 
Keith Martin said:
Well, I waited for Saturday, Zec, and now it's Tuesday, albeit not the Tuesday immediately after your promised Saturday.
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I wonder how many times I've flaked on a conversation this way. Yikes.

Keith Martin said:
I'm going to further muddy your porneia definition, because all I can do is refer to a series of blog postings by Martin Zender, in which, if my memory is correct, he thoroughly documented the extent to which porneia was, at the time of New Testament writings, almost exclusively defined as engaging in cult prostitution. The word was not just applied to the women offering up their bodies for sale; it was also applied to their clients. The thing to remember, though, is that the primary transgression in porneia was not sexual transgression. The primary transgression was committing a grievous disrespect to God, because the practice of cult prostitution was not just a matter of men paying for sex -- it was a blatant intention to create a bond between (a) the men who engaged in it and (b) the false gods they were required to pay allegiance to in order to get access to the cult prostitutes. Porneia was condemned because it was idolatry, and it represented committing adultery against God Himself.
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I'm pretty convinced that porneia is reference back to the Old Testament sexual laws. Remember that after the Jerusalem Council the gentile believers were told to avoid porneia, and not much else. That term would need some definition to be any kind of an applicable standard and the most obvious choice is the OT sexual laws.
 
And if it's NOT a reference back to the OT sexual laws, then on what basis do we as Christians hold any position on the righteousness or unrighteousness of adultery, homosexuality, polygamy, monogamy - even marriage itself - or anything else that isn't elaborated in detail in the NT and for which we base our primary understanding on the OT? It has to refer back to the OT sexual laws, or the church has been seriously misled for 2000 years and all Gentile believers may as well all be swingers.
 
And since the discussion in Acts 15 was particularly focused on the law of Moses (cf. v:1, 5, 21) and the other restrictions are from the law of Moses, abstaining from sexual immorality/porneia must also be defined by the law of Moses; i.e. to abstain from those things God defines as illicit sexual activity in the five books of Moses.
 
Aghhh! is this the thread with the link to the polygamy tshirts and bearded guy stuff?
OK I may be lost, but did you guys see the Israel one?
"Got milk and honey?"
bwaaaah hahahah
 
ZecAustin said:
Harlotry is not the same thing as prostitution. It's a broader category that prostitution can fit into.
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Care to explain? I usually see harlotry used without definition or the definition assumed without explanation. Haven't found a good explainer on it.
 
rockfox said:
Care to explain? I usually see harlotry used without definition or the definition assumed without explanation. Haven't found a good explainer on it.
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Women who trade sex don't always do it in exchange for cash. A woman who sleeps around for any reason falls in to this category. Those who do it for money are just a little more honest and frankly admirable than those who do it for whatever other reason.

I know you're looking for scripture here but the word study pretty much lays it all out there. Also, the text doesn't really reference a monetary exchange. And you know what would happen if it did, people would start trading in coupons or something to try and skirt the rules. We would have some Christian version of Islam's one hour marriages.
 
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