Barreness and Jealousy

[blugrniz4u]

Bible Study Scenario:

A woman says she agrees PM is for her family, however she cannot and will not accept a SW who could provide the man a child of his own since she is unable, thus the child already in the family should be the only one allowed.

Should the barren wife stand her ground??

Should the man tell potentials that they shouldnt want to have kids?

What should the man do (if anything) in this scenario?

Would any potential want to stay in this scenario?

Would God be involved in any of this? Why or Why not?

Points to consider: Sarai was barren for 85 years; Rebecca was barren for 20 years; Rachel was barren for a long time also;

As a personal note, I was in a PM for 17 years, during which I had seven miscarries, each loss prior to end of the sixth month.

 

[Anonymous]

Should the barren wife stand her ground??

No she shouldn't. Her "ground" is based on insecurity and selfishness.

Should the man tell potentials that they shouldnt want to have kids?

Why? Because the 1st wife doesn't want anymore children in the family because of her own insecurity issues? No! The husband needs to be the leader here not the follower.

What should the man do (if anything) in this scenario?

Praying for his wife and the situation....... and helping his 1st wife to overcome her jealousy issue would be a good starting point.

Would any potential want to stay in this scenario?

Not if she wanted to be a mother.

Would God be involved in any of this? Why or Why not?

Do you mean would he approve of the 1st wife's demands ? No...the foundation of her demands are insecurity and jealousy. God would want to heal her of those things...not perpetuate them.

As a personal note, I was in a PM for 17 years, during which I had seven miscarries, each loss prior to end of the sixth month.

I'm so sorry! How painful
I have P.C.O.S. and I have had my own struggle with this issue, as well. God has brought me to a point of peace about it, I am pleased to report.

 

[CecilW]

Seconding everything Fairlight said.

Wow! Hope this was just a hypothetical, rather than a real life situation you are experiencing.

Making it worse, it sounds as if there IS a child in the marriage, but not the husband's and like the existing wife wants to deny him the opportunity to have a child so as to secure her own son's place. Pretty awful!!! If I were the husband, I would question the viability of the existing relationship.

 

[Isabella]

I am thirding it. What an awful situation. I could not imagine how a woman who is loving towards her sisterwife can request that.

 

[blugrniz4u]

Unfortunately this scenario is all too real and all too common when couples rush things and dont take into account all the ways in which PM can go horribly wrong.

My heart cries for these women...they are missing out on such love and devotion from the sw and ANY children that come into the family. It is hard to fathom that a person could keep their heart closed like that...it must be very painful.

I pray that these issues are laid before their Heveanly Father and that they allow Him to work miracles in their lives.

 

[steve]

in my opinion there should be absolutely no "potential" relationships or even thoughts until there is some major healing for the existing relationship.

 

[blugrniz4u]

How could a person rid their mind of jealousy???

It must be so VERY exhausting to harbor and feed such an insidious, evil emotion... how does one go about their day to day activities yet have this awfulness gnawing and spreading like a cancer???

 

[Oreslag]

I wish we had more words for it, because calling jealousy evil strikes me wrongly because our God declares He is a jealous God. Thus, I must believe that there is 'righteous' jealously that differs from 'wicked' jealousy. In particular, I like to differentiate them by calling them envy or jealousy; where envy is evil and jealousy is just. It seems to me that your scenario represents envy rather than jealousy, because a wife has no place being jealous of a sister-wife...she can only be envious.

In my world, jealously obtains if my wife expresses interest in another man. This is a form or righteous anger, for she should not do so.

Just offering alternative semantics to (hopefully) make things clearer...

 

[Chaplain]

This is an issue thaat needs to be discussed between the husband and first wife way before a sisterwife is even considered being added. I agree that the wife needs to come to terms with this issue and the husband needs to be understanding and to help her along, but he also needs to the leader of his home and as Christ like as he can, letting his wife know that at some point in time, when a second wife is added, that children will, God willing, be added to THEIR family. The husband MUST stress the word THEIR for she too is involved with and a part of the family regardless if she can have children or not. She will be there to help raise and teach this child or children about love and about Christ and His love. She must have an adoptive child already and she loves this child, so too must she look at the other possible childern as adoptive children to her. She must be made to fill that she has worth and value in the family but the decission to have children with the sisterwife, should she be able to, is between the sisterwife and husbad. Again that is why this must be delt with before a sisterwife is even considered being added to the family.

 

[Isabella]

.

In my world, jealously obtains if my wife expresses interest in another man. This is a form or righteous anger, for she should not do so.

Just offering alternative semantics to (hopefully) make things clearer...

Jealousy is destructive and causes more pain in relationships than many other emotions, there is no such thing as a good jealousy.

B

 

[Anonymous]

.

In my world, jealously obtains if my wife expresses interest in another man. This is a form or righteous anger, for she should not do so.

Just offering alternative semantics to (hopefully) make things clearer...

Jealousy is destructive and causes more pain in relationships than many other emotions, there is no such thing as a good jealousy.

B

On a human level...jealousy isn't good. Expected at times, yes....but not good. Biblically speaking, God does describe Himself as "jealous"....meaning he doesn't "share".

 

[Isabella]

I know that but there lies a complex contradiction that is difficult for believers to understand I suppose, jealousy is bad, except if it is divine, but I guess that is a factor of monotheism? I don't get it, to me, it is always destructive and it is important to root it out Humans always do better when they do things together but create conflict when they work for their own self interests. I don't have to understand it myself though, since I am not a believer but I guess it must be something you all have to reconcile yourselves with.

B

 

[Anonymous]

I know that but there lies a complex contradiction that is difficult for believers to understand I suppose, jealousy is bad, except if it is divine, but I guess that is a factor of monotheism? I don't get it, to me, it is always destructive and it is important to root it out Humans always do better when they do things together but create conflict when they work for their own self interests. I don't have to understand it myself though, since I am not a believer but I guess it must be something you all have to reconcile yourselves with.

B

Also I believe that jealousy from a husband/father can be a form of protection for his family.

 

[Isabella]

I know that but there lies a complex contradiction that is difficult for believers to understand I suppose, jealousy is bad, except if it is divine, but I guess that is a factor of monotheism? I don't get it, to me, it is always destructive and it is important to root it out Humans always do better when they do things together but create conflict when they work for their own self interests. I don't have to understand it myself though, since I am not a believer but I guess it must be something you all have to reconcile yourselves with.

B

Also I believe that jealousy from a husband/father can be a form of protection for his family.

But a person can perceive a threat without jealousy? In fact, jealousy so often blinds one to the real issues and is based upon an irrational fear of loss. Not a valid threat. Jealousy can encourage controlling behaviour based on fear, what encourages a healthy relationship better, fear induced jealousy, or trust and adequate communication? I know what I admire more in a mate.

B

 

[Oreslag]

.

In my world, jealously obtains if my wife expresses interest in another man. This is a form or righteous anger, for she should not do so.

Just offering alternative semantics to (hopefully) make things clearer...

Jealousy is destructive and causes more pain in relationships than many other emotions, there is no such thing as a good jealousy.

B

As I indicated in my earlier post, I do not agree and neither does scripture. Particularly, that jealousy is never good.

In some cases, jealousy is inappropriate and in such cases, I agree that it is destructive and bad. I also concede that it is far more often than not the destructive and bad kind. In other cases it is a just response to sin and might lead one to repentance. As an example, God was jealous because His people forsook Him. He sent His prophets to declare His jealousy and to make clear His charges against His people. Likewise, a wife forsaking her husband for the headship of another is righteous jealousy because it involves marital infidelity. We can find a similarity in anger, some is righteous and some is not. Case in point: Jesus' righteous anger displayed against the Pharisees for leading the people of God astray from a position of knowledge (remember the woes Jesus pronounced - these were quite scathing rebukes http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 23:1-36&version=ESV).

In any case, I was merely pointing out that I prefer to use differing words so that when people read my posts they'll know to which I refer (i.e. jealousy==appropriate, envy==inappropriate), because these words are commonly interpreted as synonyms of one-another.

 

[Isabella]

Actually I feel that envy *wanting what someone else has* can be a lot less destructive. For example, a woman who desperately wants a baby, can feel envy over her sister being pregnant, it is internalised and painful but not necessarily destructive. A jealous woman may wish her sister were not pregnant at all, this is externalised and angry. Insisting that people or a person, obey you/worship you/love you because you wish it, is not good enough for me. Of course this is the root of possession and whether it is ever appropriate. You feel that a God can lay claim to his people he created and therefore has a right to be jealous, you feel men can lay claim to the women they wed and therefore have a right to be jealous, in this I do not agree, I do not feel that possession is appropriate, it is not loving, it is a mindset based upon selfishness and self-interest. I want to be loved not because I am a possession but because I am who I am. I am not interested in being a status symbol for an insecure male...of any sort.

B

 

[Oreslag]

Actually I feel that envy *wanting what someone else has* can be a lot less destructive. For example, a woman who desperately wants a baby, can feel envy over her sister being pregnant, it is internalised and painful but not necessarily destructive. A jealous woman may wish her sister were not pregnant at all, this is externalised and angry. Insisting that people or a person, obey you/worship you/love you because you wish it, is not good enough for me. Of course this is the root of possession and whether it is ever appropriate. You feel that a God can lay claim to his people he created and therefore has a right to be jealous, you feel men can lay claim to the women they wed and therefore have a right to be jealous, in this I do not agree, I do not feel that possession is appropriate, it is not loving, it is a mindset based upon selfishness and self-interest. I want to be loved not because I am a possession but because I am who I am. I am not interested in being a status symbol for an insecure male...of any sort.
B

Fair enough, we clearly choose to disagree, and it seems your reason is that you don't recognize the Word of God as authoritative.

Perhaps also noteworthy, coveting that which belongs to another is clearly sin and is one of the laws given in the ten commandments (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus 20:17&version=ESV). Coveting arises out of envy; to covet is simply the action that results from an envious heart.

 

[Isabella]

Fair enough, we clearly choose to disagree, and it seems your reason is that you don't recognize the Word of God as authoritative.

Perhaps also noteworthy, coveting that which belongs to another is clearly sin .

Again...it is about words and their meaning, in my scenario a woman who wants a child, does not want what belongs to her sister, she does not want to take anything from her sister, she just also wants what her sister has. Maybe that is a bit sad but is it worse than jealousy? I am sorry it doesn't make sense (to me).

B

 

[CecilW]

If I may interject into this conversation, this is another case where the Biblical definition of a term simply differs from modern day usage.

I was puzzled some time ago over this, so did a study of the term in scripture, I concluded that the Scriptural usage varied quite a bit from our modern usage, and was far closer to "protective" than "desperately grasping", which seems to characterize modern jealousy.

So, bless your hearts, my friends, you're BOTH right when considering the definition you are each using.

Oreslag, one of the DELIGHTS of having Bels on this board is that she is quick to point out when things like this arise -- when we heavily Biblical folks write, forgetting that our reading audience may well NOT share our technical Biblical vocabulary, so we have to be extra clear.

You're a treasure, Bels.

 

[Oreslag]

Fair enough, we clearly choose to disagree, and it seems your reason is that you don't recognize the Word of God as authoritative.

Perhaps also noteworthy, coveting that which belongs to another is clearly sin .

Again...it is about words and their meaning, in my scenario a woman who wants a child, does not want what belongs to her sister, she does not want to take anything from her sister, she just also wants what her sister has. Maybe that is a bit sad but is it worse than jealousy? I am sorry it doesn't make sense (to me).

B

Perhaps I should leave well enough alone at this point, but I feel an irresistible urge to clarify

Yes Isabella, I agree that it must be about words. Particularly, she does want what belongs to her sister, but I'm sure not in the same way you perceive me to mean it. To be envious of what another has is to be in rejection of what God has given you. In the way of blessings that are unique to you that others don't have, others have blessings that you don't have. This is the way it is. In His sovereignty, God gives gifts as His perfect wisdom dictates, and He asks that we serve as good stewards of those gifts and spend them on others for His glory. Thus, we are to be satisfied with what God provides us with, though it is fine to hope in Him for that which we don't have but which we might desire. However, when such desire becomes excessive, it becomes lust. Lust begins to set up that which is desired as an idol which replaces God. Such a lust often manifests in envy (among other things). Envy's end result is coveting; where the exact meaning of the word used in the original language is disputed among scholars, but at the very least refers to an observable action (e.g. trying to acquire the thing desired through deceptive or otherwise nefarious means).

In similar fashion, the sixth commandment prohibits murder (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus 20:13&version=ESV), and Jesus clarifies that this extends to the condition of the heart that includes anger (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 5:21-22&version=ESV). Again, the seventh commandment prohibits adultery (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus 20:14&version=ESV), and Jesus clarifies that this extends to the condition of the heart that includes lust (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 5:27-30&version=ESV).

When I made my note and scripture reference in the previous post, all of this - my point of reference - was implied. Thus, when I use the term covet I'm actually referring to an end result which departed from righteousness where it passed from a hope to a lust. Where envy begins, it doesn't need to have anything to do with desiring the particular child that belongs to her sister. Where it ends in coveting, neither does it need to have anything to do with the particular child that belongs to her sister.

Can it be worse than jealousy? Absolutely. In extending your example, people who covet children is precisely what fuels (in part of course) child trafficking as a criminal enterprise. Clearly, if no one pushed to have what God had not given them, there would be no profit in child trafficking. Can it be better than jealousy? Absolutely, as in your example. I think there is a large degree of overlap when we consider the consequences of both.

I hope this helped. If not, please forget I wrote it.