Are all divorced women guilty of adultery?

[Memphis Dwight]

When Christ makes His statement condemning the man that marries her that is put away, something crucial must be understood. Before Christ makes this utterance, He excludes or sets aside from consideration the woman divorced for fornication. So He is making absolutely no statement about the man that marries the woman that has been divorced lawfully, that is, for fornication.

 

[Anonymous]

When Christ makes His statement condemning the man that marries her that is put away, something crucial must be understood. Before Christ makes this utterance, He excludes or sets aside from consideration the woman divorced for fornication. So He is making absolutely no statement about the man that marries the woman that has been divorced lawfully, that is, for fornication.

Memphis,

No disagreements there. It's clear that the woman who was put away except for the matter of whoring and the woman who was married by the man that commits adultery with her, are the SAME woman. I don't think anyone here has suggested otherwise.

Matt 5:32: "But I say to you that whoever puts away his wife, except for the matter of whoring, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a woman who has been put away commits adultery."

Matt. 19:9: "And I say to you, whoever puts away his wife, except on the ground of whoring, and marries another, commits adultery. And whoever marries her who has been put away commits adultery."

Luke 16:18: "Everyone putting away his wife and marrying another commits adultery. And everyone marrying her who is put away from her husband commits adultery."

So yes, if the woman was put away for the matter of whoring, then THIS separation was lawful and the man was entitled to putting her away for just cause. In such a case, where she has been separated LAWFULLY (per Deut. 24; take a wife, marry her, find matter of uncoveredness, write certificate, give it to her, send her away), then she is free to remarry because the separation is valid. But if a man just wants to be free of her and simply puts her away without her having done anything to deserve it, she remains bound to her husband and she cannot remarry without committing adultery. Anyone marrying such a put away woman also commits adultery with her.

My wife actually pointed out the other day one of the best descriptions for marital separation I've heard yet. There is no way that a wife can be lawfully separated from her husband unless she is guilty. Marital separation is shown in Scripture to always be a JUDGMENT - a punishment against the wife for her sexual unfaithfulness. So if she didn't commit whoring, she can't justly (lawfully) be cut off for it. These verses demonstrate conclusively that she remains married and cannot remarry without committing adultery.

Always in His love,
David

 

[wanttobe]

I certainly do appreciate everyones efforts to answer my question. Thank you to all. Next time I will thoroughly search the archives before posting.

 

[Melanie]

In such a case, where she has been separated LAWFULLY (per Deut. 24; take a wife, marry her, find matter of uncoveredness, write certificate, give it to her, send her away), then she is free to remarry because the separation is valid. But if a man just wants to be free of her and simply puts her away without her having done anything to deserve it, she remains bound to her husband and she cannot remarry without committing adultery. Anyone marrying such a put away woman also commits adultery with her.

My wife actually pointed out the other day one of the best descriptions for marital separation I've heard yet. There is no way that a wife can be lawfully separated from her husband unless she is guilty. Marital separation is shown in Scripture to always be a JUDGMENT - a punishment against the wife for her sexual unfaithfulness. So if she didn't commit whoring, she can't justly (lawfully) be cut off for it. These verses demonstrate conclusively that she remains married and cannot remarry without committing adultery.

So a woman who is abandoned by her husband through no fault of her own, continues to be punished precisely because she has done nothing wrong? Yet a woman guilty of sin who can go on to marry. I think there is something missing here, something huge because this is a cruel and heartless thing. Is this really who we believe God to be? Unreasonably cruel? I hope not...

I can't remember the exact reasoning, scriptures cited, but i know that the witnesses believe that if one party of a marriage plays around on the other (and polygamous men can still play around sleeping with women without marrying them) then the other has a choice to forgive or separate and be free to remarry. It leaves the decision up to the wronged party and provides a resolution for both.

Although a lot of what i learned from witnesses is utter bunk, but this point actually makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Anonymous]

So a woman who is abandoned by her husband through no fault of her own, continues to be punished precisely because she has done nothing wrong?

Not unless you consider being married the same as being punished. She simply still has a husband who lives, and as such, she is bound to him for life. I don't make the rules, but that is in fact what Scripture says. Would you think that a woman who is being abused, or is not loved, or is beaten daily, or is disrespected, is in any way more free to remarry than one who is abandoned? Marriage, for the woman, is exclusive to the man. That's simply the way it is. The only exception (in the OT and the NT) is in the case where she is guilty of whoring. That is the only lawful reason a man may exercise judgment against his wife. Putting her away for any other reason (or her leaving on her own) is invalid and doesn't break the marriage bond between them, which is precisely why Jesus said that a woman who has been put away otherwise commits adultery with another man.

Two wrongs don't make a right. An illegal abandonment by the husband doesn't justify a lifestyle of perpetual adultery by the wife and her next husband. The husband will have to answer to God for his actions, just as the wife will have to answer for what she does next.

In His love,
David

P.S. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying as meaning the wife is required to submit, even unto death, to an abusive husband. I'm simply stating that according to Scripture, she remains bound to her living husband. She can choose to remain apart and celibate, but she may NOT choose to take another man to bed. She can either be restored to his grace or she can remain unmarried. Clear NT Scriptures give us no other lawful choice.

 

[Mark C]

There is no way that a wife can be lawfully separated from her husband unless she is guilty. Marital separation is shown in Scripture to always be a JUDGMENT - a punishment against the wife for her sexual unfaithfulness.

So a woman who is abandoned by her husband through no fault of her own, continues to be punished precisely because she has done nothing wrong? Yet a woman guilty of sin who can go on to marry. I think there is something missing here...

You are right, Melanie. What is missing is a right reading of Scripture, and even basic logic. God is not so inconsistent.

What such tripe implies is that any woman who WANTS to be "separated from her husband" simply needs to go and get guilty - commit some whoring, a bit of adultery.

Not only does such a doctrine of demons result in "forbidding to marry", but it makes adultery the only result AND the only remedy! Good grief.

But don't let such sloppy reading of Scripture convince you that God does not hold both men and women to righteousness. Check out Deut. 22:28-29, for just one example. A man (polygynous or not!) who "lays hold" of a virgin and takes her, must not only pay her father the bride price and take her to wife, but may NEVER put her away all his days...no matter what.

There is NOTHING inconsistent in God's Word. The appearance of such a disconnect is an indication that the problem lies with the interpretation, not with God.

 

[Anonymous]

Check out Deut. 22:28-29, for just one example. A man (polygynous or not!) who "lays hold" of a virgin and takes her, must not only pay her father the bride price and take her to wife, but may NEVER put her away all his days...no matter what.

Precisely. We are in agreement here. What is especially interesting with this passage is that it is one of only two passages in Scripture where a husband was forbidden to "put away" his wife. Also interesting is that in both cases, it has been proven that he has taken her virginity. (Deut. 22:13-19; Deut. 22:28-29).

Also especially interesting is that the only two passages where a husband was specifically allowed to put away his wife are where she was not a virgin. (Deut. 24:1; Deut. 24:3)

Coincidence?

Not in the least. The "matter of uncoveredness" mentioned in Deut. 24:1 and the "matter of whoring" mentioned in Matt. 5:32 and Matt. 19:9 is the exact same matter. It is a reference to virginity fraud, where the wife claims to be virgin but she has in fact committed whoring prior to marriage. If you read the complete articles on our web site, you already know how this is established in Scripture, so I won't bother repeating it here.

The point is that virginity (or lack thereof) was the key to determining whether the man could lawfully cut off his wife. If an already married woman committed whoring, then by definition it is adultery, which would make Jesus saying that unless she commits adultery, she commits adultery when remarrying. That isn't what I was saying and that isn't what the original Greek text says either. He explicitly said except for WHORING (porneia), not adultery (moichao). To be whoring while not being adultery, the whoring had to occur prior to the marriage. Whoring for the married woman was always adultery.

Contrary to what you have attempted to claim, I do not believe Jesus was in disagreement with Moses in the slightest. All these passages are speaking to the same issue. All Jesus did was to assign the guilt of adultery to the common act of separation and remarriage without lawful cause -- the only lawful cause given in Scripture in EITHER Testament.

So the argument that a wife only need go out and commit adultery is ridiculous. It makes no difference whether she simply lays with another man or if she marries the man first. In either case, it is still adultery and NEITHER case breaks the marriage bond. If she remains in her adulterous remarriage, she remains in her sin.

There is NOTHING inconsistent in God's Word. The appearance of such a disconnect is an indication that the problem lies with the interpretation, not with God.

Amen! I couldn't agree more.

In His love,
David

 

[DrRay777]

Melanie,

If a husband abandons his wife, she is 'put away' and divorced, whether or not the state or any other human accepts it. She is free to remarry, no matter what anyone says about the scripture. One can argue all kinds of technical minutia about the letter of the law in the Old Testament, but we are free from those technicalities in Christ. It is the 'Spirit' of the law in Christ that we must follow. It is as Mark said. Do not let anyone bring bondage about living versus dead. Those who do not abide in Christ ARE dead to God. If they are dead to God, then they are dead to us, PERIOD. That is why Paul said in I Corinthians 7 that believers are NOT obligated to stay with unbelievers if the unbelievers want to leave. If the unbelievers leave, then we as believers are free of them and can remarry. An unbelieving husband or wife who abandons a believer makes that believer FREE to remarry. Again, we live under the Spirit of God's Law, not the letter. That is why Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians, they also were becoming messed up in bondage trying to go back under the letter of the old law. We are free in Christ, not to sin, but free from sin and the bondage of the old law to be led by the Spirit of the new law of the Spirit of life in Christ, which sets us free from the law of sin and death, (Romans 8:2). That is the way it is, no matter what anyone says to the contrary. Anyone who would argue against this does so by another spirit and not the Spirit of God.

Be blessed,

Ray

 

[Anonymous]

Ray says, "If a husband abandons his wife, she is 'put away' and divorced...She is free to remarry, no matter what anyone says about the scripture."

Jesus says, "whoever puts away his wife, except for the matter of whoring, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a woman who has been put away commits adultery."

Everyone can decide for themselves who to believe.

I do have a question, however. For those who do not believe Jesus meant what He said in Mt. 5:32, Mt. 19:9, Mk. 10:11-12 or Lk. 16:18, I have to wonder precisely WHO they think is unable to remarry without committing adultery. Since the exception has been stretched beyond any reasonable recognition of Jesus' actual words, does ANYBODY ever actually commit adultery when remarrying? I wonder why He even bothered to tell us anything at all about adulterous remarriage, as everyone has one exception or another. Is there anyone out there that understands that the point He was making was NOT about the exception?? Where are all the righteous men and women?

Maybe it's better to be popular than to be righteous. Divorce and remarriage is quite popular in the Body today. Do as thou wilt.

In His love,
David

 

[Mark C]

For those who do not believe Jesus meant what He said...

That belief starts with when He said that He did not come to do away with even the smallest part of His torah so long as heaven and earth still exist. That understanding includes the fact that He did not change His own commandments concerning marriage. This has already been made clear at length.

But this one is easy. It doesn't require speculation about who is an "unbeliever", or what "remarriage" is.

...does ANYBODY ever actually commit adultery when remarrying?

A married woman who ABANDONS her husband, in clear and obvious violation of I Corinthians 7:10-11, and who therefore equally obviously will have NO certificate of divorce, because none was written, commits adultery if and when she EVER has sex with any other man while her husband yet lives.

She knows she is in rebellion, to God, and to her covenant of marriage.

And a man who unlawfully sends his wife away, without giving HER a certificate of divorce, bears the guilt of whatever sexual sin his perfidy later causes. If she has sex with any other man, that hard-hearted husband bears HER guilt. HE causes her to commit adultery.

He, too, is in rebellion.

All of which is exactly what our Savior said.

I can't make it any more clear than He already did.

 

[Melanie]

This doesn't really make it any clearer... and i am sure there are tons of women in my situation. Women who are single through no fault of their own who would like to be married.

If you mean that the ONLY women that can be properly married are virgins and widows why can none of you say that? Why argue over semantics if thats what you all believe? OK i realize no one likes to be the bearer of bad news but truth is truth. It would be nice to have that answered once and for all. At least then women who do want to put God first can then move on and find something else to do with their lives. (and there are tons of alternatives out there)

 

[Anonymous]

If you mean that the ONLY women that can be properly married are virgins and widows why can none of you say that? Why argue over semantics if thats what you all believe? OK i realize no one likes to be the bearer of bad news but truth is truth. It would be nice to have that answered once and for all.

Sister Melanie,

As far as I can tell, nobody here has suggested that only virgins and widows can marry. Whores (fornicators, harlots, take your pick) can marry as well. The issue of contention has been solely whether a married/divorced woman can marry.

Even though there's been a lot of debate on this, the truth is that we all agree on more points than we disagree. However, we do disagree strongly based on our views of the Covenants. One person believes the Old and New Covenants both exist concurrently, another person believes the Old was replaced by the New, another believes the Old and the New are actually the same covenant, another believes parts of the Old were incorporated (or carried over) into the New, another believes the Old ended at the cross, another believes the Old has ended but still influences the New....and on and on it goes. How we understand the Covenants limits what (and how much) we will accept in NT Scripture.

What I think is important to understand here is that different views on the covenants is the direct cause for the different views as to whether (and which) passages apply, how they should be interpreted, what takes precedence, etc. I will say this, however. Whatever our views regarding law, Jesus did SAY what He SAID. I don't think anyone has disagreed with the words in Mt 5:32, Mt. 19:9; Mk. 10:11-12 or Lk. 16:18, only in how one insists on making them fit within their preexisting theology. We can either choose to take His words at face value, or we can try to interpret Him through Moses, or we can just ignore Him altogether and just follow Mosaic law. In the end, we will have to each answer for ourselves before Him and nobody else.

For me personally, I see no conflict between what Jesus said and what the Mosaic law said regarding marriage. I do not see Jesus as Moses' cheerleader, however. Jesus did not conflict with established Mosaic law (regardless if or when we think the Mosaic law ended, I think we would all agree that it certainly was still in full effect at the time He spoke these words), but I cannot interpret Deut. 24 in such a way as to disregard the plain sense meaning of Jesus's own words. I will allow Jesus to interpret Moses before I will allow Moses to interpret Jesus. Jesus came AFTER Moses and His Words take precedence. But in an attempt to make OT and NT interpretations line up perfectly, many true Believers will discount the possibility that "put away" simply means "put away", rather than their preference of "put away without a certificate of divorce". Had Jesus meant to say that, I believe He certainly would have. Such an interpretation of Moses (which is debatable in itself) thoroughly restricts what Jesus was able to say. Therefore, it's not enough to simply believe that Jesus isn't allowed to conflict with Moses. The end result is that Jesus isn't PERMITTED to make a statement that conflicts with one's predetermined interpretation of Deut. 24. Since we've already made up our minds regarding Deut. 24, Jesus must be made to conform with said interpretation. To me, that is hogwash!

As I'm sure you are aware, there is a clear distinction between exegesis and eisegesis. You can easily tell one from the other by reading the text by itself and seeing if one's interpretation requires other additional text to change its obvious meaning. In other words, would I derive the same understanding if the passage stood alone (in a vacuum, so to speak)? If not, then I'm not using exegesis to interpret the passage, I am instead forcing my own predetermined ideas into what the passage MUST mean. Of course, no Scripture exists by itself, so ultimately we still need to study His entire Word to see how everything lines up. But we must be careful not to force our own ideas into the text we are trying to understand.

When I read Jesus' words, I read them for what He says before I concern myself with what He might mean or how His words might line up with established OT Scripture. The fact that He even brought up the whole "you heard it said" in relation to the certificate of divorcement is a beacon of light as to whether the certificate had any bearing on what he was now saying. The ultimate law giver was laying down the law and He made it clear that the permanence of marriage was the issue He was concerned with, not the exception. The exception was needed so as to NOT conflict with Mosaic law. There was still one case of lawful separation: the matter of uncoveredness/whoring. He simply pointed out that everything else resulted in adultery, which blew the disciples minds!

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble on, but you seem like one of the only individuals here who is honestly asking the right questions. If you have been unlawfully separated, then you remain married to your husband, even if you are never restored to him. That's how I read Jesus' clear words and nothing in 1 Cor. 7 changes it. Even the unbelieving husband who unlawfully puts away his wife does NOT allow her to remarry. Verse 15 states that a Believer is not enslaved to maintain his or her marriage at the expense of brotherly peace, should the unbeliever choose to leave. Nowhere does the text state anything about the Believer suddenly being permitted to remarry. That is a lie which is unsupported in the actual Greek text.

I don't know your past background, so I don't know what exactly applies to you, but I can tell you this. With God as my witness (and I answer to Him alone), if you have been separated from your first husband for any reason aside from the singular exception clause, you remain married to him so long as he lives and you may not lawfully take another husband without living in an adulterous remarriage. It's not popular but it's truth. That's what Scripture says and I'm sticking to it. Your mileage may vary.

In His love and in His truth,
David

 

[DrRay777]

Melanie,

I DID say that you ARE free to re-marry. I beg to differ from what djnakes says. When Jesus spoke, you can assume that he was speaking of believers, because non-believers by definition are NOT saved, but condemned, (to hell then the lake of fire - See Mark 16:15-18). All scriptures NKJV...

Mark 16:15-18 -

15And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

God has confirmed the Word that I teach many times by healings and other miracles. If I did not speak the truth, you can rest assured that He would NOT do that, because I would make Him a liar. God ALWAYS backs up His Word with power.

If your husband abandoned you, or for that matter lets lump drug/alcohol abusing, physical abusing husbands, etc. into the group of NON-BELIEVERS. Now let us look at what Paul said, (again speaking to BELIEVERS)...

I Corinthians 7:10-16 -

10Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. 12But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. 16For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

I do not know how much more clear a Holy Spirit filled interpretation of Gods will in the New Testament church has to be! If a believing wife is abandoned by her husband, that act in and of itself gives her freedom to remarry. I would rather believe Paul than someone else. Besides that, God spoke to me directly concerning these things several years ago and what He told me makes sense with this Word, not by letter of the old law, but the Spirit of the new law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which has set us free from the old law of sin and death. Yes, Jesus did NOT do away with the old law and for those Galatians here or wherever who want to put themselves under that old law, go for it. It still exists. I prefer to live in victory seated in heavenly places under the new law in Christ. I am no longer in bondage to that old law, but have entered the rest of God. That is why EVERYDAY is the Sabbath to me. I eat whatever I want and never get sick as long as I pray over it and am obedient to God, because I do not need that chastising to keep me in line. All God has to do is give me the look and I repent. The law of gravity still exists for those of us who do not operate in the higher law of jet propulsion. However, for those men who went to the moon, I am sure they will tell you it is an awesome experience to overcome that old law of gravity and soar off into space to reach another heavenly body and look back at the earth from there.

Romans 7:1-6 -

1Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

To repeat a former argument, I am certain that if Paul did not mean this, he would not have said it. As true believers, (not just anyone claiming to be Christians and not walking by the Holy Spirit, they are liars and will end up in the lake of fire - Rev. 21:8) WE ARE DEAD TO THE OLD LAW and by inference those who do not believe and walk according to Christ ARE DEAD TO THE NEW COVENANT IN HIM!

Romans 7:9 -

9I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

You see, those who are NOT in Christ and do not walk according to the Spirit of God ARE DEAD ACCORDING to the old law. However, those of us who BELIEVE ARE NOT UNDER THIS BONDAGE, unless WE CHOOSE TO GO BACK UNDER THE OLD LAW BY WALKING ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. I am shocked at how many people who call themselves Christian and not only put themselves under the bondage of the old letter, but teach others to go back under that old bondage too. However, this is not a new problem; the entire book of Galatians was written to people who did the same stupid thing. These people will answer for these wrong teachings one day, (James 3:1).

Romans 8:1-17 -

1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Please Melanie, rest assured that if your non-believing husband left you in the lurch, divorce papers or not, you are FREE to remarry, if you are a believer and live under the new law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Your ex-husband is DEAD in Gods eyes. Let us look at what Jesus said to the Sardis church to Back up this concept...

Revelation 3:1 -

1And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Again, I cannot make it any clearer than that. I am not arguing semantics; I AM SPEAKING THE TRUTH OF GOD. I also answer to Him. The fact that others teach from the old letter grieves me in my spirit, because I am filled with the Holy Spirit.

Be blessed,

Ray

 

[Mark C]

This doesn't really make it any clearer... and i am sure there are tons of women in my situation. Women who are single through no fault of their own who would like to be married.

If you mean that the ONLY women that can be properly married are virgins and widows why can none of you say that?

Because (speaking for myself, just to be clear ) I do not mean that at all.

Isaiah 4:1 certainly prophecies otherwise as well. And lastly, note very clearly that a man who found that his wife was NOT a virgin following their wedding was under no obligation to 'get rid of' her! Many would have known the situation, and chosen to cover and protect such a woman.

It is ENTIRELY possible, Melanie, for us to love our wives regardless!

May God bless you in your search,

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

And lastly, note very clearly that a man who found that his wife was NOT a virgin following their wedding was under no obligation to 'get rid of' her! Many would have known the situation, and chosen to cover and protect such a woman.

On this point, I agree completely. Nowhere was the husband required to put away his wife in such a case. Otherwise, whores and widows would never be able to marry.

In His love,
David

 

[Anonymous]

God has confirmed the Word that I teach many times by healings and other miracles. If I did not speak the truth, you can rest assured that He would NOT do that, because I would make Him a liar. God ALWAYS backs up His Word with power.

Matthew 7:22-23: "Many shall say to Me in that day, 'Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?' And then I shall declare to them, 'I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!'"

Please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not suggesting this applies to you at all. I just want to point out, from God's Word, that prophesying, casting out demons and performing various miracles, in and of itself, is not evidence of anything. These individuals thought they were believers, they performed miracles in His name, yet they were not His because they were disobedient to His Word. We must judge a circumstance on what the Word actually says, not on what spiritual leaders tell us must be so.

If your husband abandoned you, or for that matter lets lump drug/alcohol abusing, physical abusing husbands, etc. into the group of NON-BELIEVERS.

Do you see what you've just done here? Aside from adding to His Word, you have given every believing wife permission to leave their believing husbands, just as long as they can find a singular fault in them so as to label them as unbelievers. He's got a problem with pornography? He's an unbeliever. Kicks the dog? Unbeliever. Doesn't like your mother? Probably suppressed hatred. Unbeliever.

15But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases.[/b] But God has called us to peace. 16For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

I do not know how much more clear a Holy Spirit filled interpretation of Gods will in the New Testament church has to be! If a believing wife is abandoned by her husband, that act in and of itself gives her freedom to remarry. I would rather believe Paul than someone else.

Seeing as Paul never said she could remarry, there's nothing to believe. Paul said they were not enslaved ("douloo", Strong's #1402). You believe this means the person is free to remarry?

The Greek word "douloo" is a PERFECT TENSE verb and means the brother or sister "has not been enslaved and is not now enslaved". Clearly, this cannot be referring to the covenantal marriage bond, or else what Paul would be saying is that "a brother or sister HAS NOT BEEN married in such matters". This, of course, would directly conflict with what Paul just finished saying about commanding them to remain married. If they have not been married all along, then they have been whoring. Are we now to believe that Paul is sanctioning whoring for Believers?

Also note that in the very next verse, the unbeliever is still referred to as "your husband" and "your wife". The marriage is still considered valid in the eyes of God, even if they are separated. The Believer continues to have a husband or a wife that they might still end up saving, whether the unbeliever recognizes the marriage or not. That is why we have been called to maintain peace with an unbeliever who chooses to leave. If the wife was a Believer and the husband was an unbeliever who separated himself, the wife would still be required to remain unmarried or be restored to her husband, as Paul explicitly stated just five verses earlier. They're not required to remain with them, but neither are they free to marry another. That's unscriptural nonsense.

Besides that, God spoke to me directly concerning these things several years ago and what He told me makes sense with this Word..."

I know some of what you have said in previous messages has been true, but I also know some of what you have said was revealed to you by God has been false, so what you believe God has revealed to you changes nothing. None of us have a monopoly on truth. God's Word is the final authority on these matters, whether we agree with it or not, whether we properly understand it or not.

As true believers...WE ARE DEAD TO THE OLD LAW

So then the question becomes....what Jesus stated in Matt. 5:32, Matt. 19:9, Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 constitutes the OLD law?

I am shocked at how many people who call themselves Christian and not only put themselves under the bondage of the old letter, but teach others to go back under that old bondage too. However, this is not a new problem; the entire book of Galatians was written to people who did the same stupid thing. These people will answer for these wrong teachings one day, (James 3:1).

Amen! No arguments there.

Please Melanie, rest assured that if your non-believing husband left you in the lurch, divorce papers or not, you are FREE to remarry, if you are a believer and live under the new law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Your ex-husband is DEAD in Gods eyes.

Do you realize what you're saying? Let's assume for the moment that her husband was actually NOT a Believer at all. Never knew the gospel, never accepted Jesus as His Master and Savior. You're telling her she can REMARRY?? Are you writing this man off for eternity? So in five years when he comes to the knowledge of Messiah and comes looking for his wife who has married another man, is he dead or alive in your book?

Luke 16:18: "Everyone putting away his wife and marrying another commits adultery. And everyone marrying her who is put away from her husband commits adultery."

In your understanding, does this "everyone" here refer to Believers only, unbelievers only, or both? Are you claiming that if an unbeliever marries the wife of another man, he DOESN'T commit adultery with her?

You might want to go back to God and discuss this some more. You're distorting His clear Word, though I'm sure you don't mean to.

Always in His love,
David

 

[Mark C]

We must judge a circumstance on what the Word actually says, not on what spiritual leaders tell us must be so.

DrRay777 wrote: "If your husband abandoned you, or for that matter lets lump drug/alcohol abusing, physical abusing husbands, etc. into the group of NON-BELIEVERS."


Do you see what you've just done here? Aside from adding to His Word, you have given every believing wife permission to leave their believing husbands, just as long as they can find a singular fault in them so as to label them as unbelievers. He's got a problem with pornography? He's an unbeliever. Kicks the dog? Unbeliever. Doesn't like your mother? Probably suppressed hatred. Unbeliever.

On this point, David is correct. Our Savior has not allowed remarriage after "divorce" for "EVERY reason".

But NEITHER has He prohibited it for almost every reason!

He is a just and loving Master, Who has provided remedy within His teaching and instruction. But we must study, to "show ourselves approved".

The essential element for understanding His Word, after the knowledge of what it means to love Him, is to "choose life". Marriage is a central element of His plan for us. It is to be preserved, WHENEVER possible, and reconciled WHENEVER possible. But it is not a death sentence, and all of us need to be humble enough not to attempt to judge ANOTHER man's house and claim to speak for what "God has joined" - or not.

Those who deny that the world is still full of hard-hearted people (both men and women), or claim that the torah is "written on the heart" of everyone who claims to be a believer, or that "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" from Jeremiah 31 is already fulfilled should wake up and take a look around!

There is a curse associated with rebellion against God, and even ignorance of His 'teaching and instruction' can bring destruction (Hosea 4:6, etc). Paul's letter to the Galatians is one of those things most often "wrested by the unlearned and untaught", to "their own destruction" -- because they do not understand the difference between being a "bondservant to the King" and being "under bondage". Read what our Savior said in John 14 -- which confirms what He also Wrote in Deuteronomy 30, and in every jot and tiddle of His Word!

IF we love Him, there is NOTHING He asks us to do which is burdensome! And that includes His teaching and instruction concerning marriage.


Blessings in Him,

Mark

 

[DrRay777]

To all here,

After this post, I am withdrawing from this discussion because it is circular in nature and we are called not to get involved in endless discussions that lead nowhere. In my opinion, some here are forever studying and never coming to the knowledge of the truth. Let me state clearly that I am NOT giving permission for anyone to leave their spouse for any reason, only any LEGITIMATE reason. If there is an abusive situation and the wife needs to leave, then she should leave and I do not believe that a loving God will hold her accountable for that. David you answered your own question when you say that we are not enslaved. We are free in Christ. Not free to sin, but free from it. There is no sin in remarriage after divorce for legitimate reasons. If you want to believe that adultery is the only legitimate reason, then I would venture to say that most likely any abusive husband has by Jesus' new definition committed adultery in his heart against his wife by looking at another woman with lust in his heart, (e.g., pornography), therefore this would giver her freedom to remarry if she is divorced, (Matt. 5:28). I will make this statement, NO TRUE BELIEVER will abuse their wife, be involved in pornography, etc. Let us use some common sense and Godly wisdom here. You can split religious hairs all day long, but at the end of the day the real truth will be what brings LIFE into any given situation.

David I will tell you outright that what you are preaching does not bring liberty and life. I cannot agree with it and there is no way that you will convince me otherwise. I have heard from God and see the scriptures from the viewpoint of the Holy Spirit. What I see makes sense and brings life. What you are teaching brings bondage for millions of women around the world and though it may appear to fit the letter of the law, it does not line up with the Spirit of the law. You would make a good lawyer, but Jesus did not have good words for lawyers or Pharisees who put great burdens on the people of God. Telling Melanie or any other unfortunate woman in her situation that she cannot remarry is nonsense in my view, and I have the Spirit of God. God has spoken to me through various prophets around the world and He has never said that He does not know me. I have stayed on the path to which He has placed me and He continues to confirm His Word through various healings and other power because I OBEY Him, not for any other reason. May I point out that you have changed His Word by stating that this power is not evidence of anything, (Mark 16:15-20).

I hereby formally withdraw from this thread. But, I hope those who are confused by what people have taught here, (read James 3:13-18 and decide for yourselves) will ask God themselves and decide who is right. I hope they will get the liberty that Jesus suffered for us to have, not to abuse it for walking in the flesh, but to rightly use it for walking in the life in Christ in the Spirit.

Dr. Ray

BTW - If Jesus was not preaching to believers, (i.e., God's people), then why did He say in Matthew 15:24...I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. You may want to re-read John Chapters 12-17 to see who are to be classified as believers and who Jesus ministered to and prayed for.
(The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

 

[Anonymous]

Brother Ray,

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. I was hesitant to bring up that passage but I felt it necessary to counter what I see as unsound doctrine. As I said, I do not believe you to be a false teacher or false prophet, even if there are some points we disagree on. As far as I can tell, we do not disagree on the actual Scripture verses.

Those things which you did bring up regarding a loving God, freedom from sin, life and liberty...these are all good things, all valid things, but they do not directly and explicitly speak to the issue at hand, namely, whether a wife may take another husband while she already has another husband living.

After this post, I am withdrawing from this discussion because it is circular in nature and we are called not to get involved in endless discussions that lead nowhere.

As this subject cannot be thoroughly discussed among the majority of scholars because they will not even accept polygyny, I can think of no better people to discuss these matters with. It may seem circular to you, but I believe it has been refining. We don't always have to agree on every point to be moving closer to His truth.

Let me state clearly that I am NOT giving permission for anyone to leave their spouse for any reason, only any LEGITIMATE reason. If there is an abusive situation and the wife needs to leave, then she should leave and I do not believe that a loving God will hold her accountable for that.

Who defines this "legitimate" reason? Since this is a specific subject that was dealt with by our Master at length, shouldn't that "legitimate reason" be coming from God's Word? I don't need to quote the passages again, but the permanence of marriage was the point in all four parallel passages in Matt, Mark and Luke, not the singular exception to committing adultery if remarrying. I don't see Him as speaking these words to give a laundry list of excuses for us to break up marriages. If anything, I see His words as reinforcing the idea that marriage is binding. If other passages in NT Scripture related to freedom and liberty (which themselves are not directly speaking about marriage) can override these explicit words of our Master (which ARE directly speaking about marriage), then we can pretty much spiritualize anything we come across in Scripture. This, in my opinion, is the most dangerous attitude we can take regarding His Word.

David you answered your own question when you say that we are not enslaved. We are free in Christ. Not free to sin, but free from it.

Glad to hear it. I'm in full agreement with the fact that we are free in Christ not to sin.

There is no sin in remarriage after divorce for legitimate reasons.

I agree there is no sin in remarriage for legitimate reasons. Regarding married women, Scripture states these legitimate reasons are: prior whoring on the part of the woman; death on the part of the man. That's it. I see no other reasons given, and Jesus Himself said remarriage under other circumstances results in adultery. They may be separated for numerous reasons, but REMARRIAGE is not the same as separation. Paul was clear that she was to be restored or remain unmarried. That is fairly explicit that she CANNOT remarry due to separation.

If you want to believe that adultery is the only legitimate reason, then I would venture to say that most likely any abusive husband has by Jesus' new definition committed adultery in his heart against his wife by looking at another woman with lust in his heart, (e.g., pornography), therefore this would giver her freedom to remarry if she is divorced, (Matt. 5:28).

Jesus didn't say "except for ADULTERY" (moichao), he said "except for WHORING" (porneia). If she were already married when she laid with another man, it would have been adultery. Jesus is referring to the sole legitimate reason given in the OT regarding marital separation. This is why only Matthew records this exception, as Matthew was written to the Jews (as opposed to Mark and Luke for the gentiles). The gentiles had no concept of betrothals or virginity fraud, but it was given in Deut. 24 as the sole condition for a lawful separation.

Aside from the exact word Jesus spoke (porneia, or whoring), your justification for any wife being able to leave any husband on the grounds that HE probably committed adultery at some point by looking lustfully at another woman, quite frankly, is shocking. This is akin to divorce for any cause, by either spouse, at any time. Yet at the same time you claim you have the Spirit of God within you?

I will make this statement, NO TRUE BELIEVER will abuse their wife, be involved in pornography, etc.

True Believers do, in fact, sin. If this is not the case, if true Believers are perfect as He is perfect, then there has only ever been one True Believer in the history of the world. The rest of us are failures. Fortunately, when I recognize and repent of my sin and walk away from it, I am completely clean and free of it, through His blood sacrifice. Be careful in your generalizations here. Pornography, as with other addictions, can be a stronghold in many true Believers lives. It should not be, but it does occur in many men and women of God. Strongholds do not always break overnight. If these individuals are truly repentant and desire freedom from the power of these sins, should we throw the baby out with the bathwater?

David I will tell you outright that what you are preaching does not bring liberty and life. I cannot agree with it and there is no way that you will convince me otherwise.

I'm not preaching a prosperity "feel-good-about-yourself" theology, I'm quoting God's Word here. Matt. 5:32. Matt. 19:9. Mark 10:11-12. Luke 16:18. Rom. 7:2-3. 1 Cor. 7:10-11. 1 Cor. 7:39. EVERY SINGLE ONE of these passages explicitly states that she is NOT free to remarry without committing adultery. He certainly went through a lot of trouble to make sure we got the point. Forgive me for saying so, but you appear to be standing opposed to God's Word here.

What you are teaching brings bondage for millions of women around the world and though it may appear to fit the letter of the law, it does not line up with the Spirit of the law.

The reason it appears to fit the "letter of the law", as you say, is because these are direct quotations from the New Testament Scriptures. You cannot spiritualize away anything you don't like in God's Word. Mark and I have rammed heads on many occasions because of our opposing views regarding the end of the Mosaic law, but I have tremendous respect for him because, for the most part, he sticks to what the Word actually says, rather than acting like a spin-doctor with Scripture.

Let me be blunt. Marriage brings bondage. If you don't want to be bound, don't get married. If you don't want to be a slave to the Master, don't become a Christian. It's that simple. Permanence is permanence. I'm sorry if your spirit doesn't agree with that. Mine does.

Telling Melanie or any other unfortunate woman in her situation that she cannot remarry is nonsense in my view, and I have the Spirit of God.

Paul said he believed he had the Spirit of God, but you know it. In any event, I don't know Melanie's situation, so I don't know whether she has a living husband or not. I do not doubt that this is nonsense in your view. I do wonder though, why do you think Jesus had to actually die if a wife can simply leave and take another husband while he lives anyway? Perhaps God has a better understanding of adultery and binding in marriage than we do.

I hereby formally withdraw from this thread. But, I hope those who are confused by what people have taught here, will ask God themselves and decide who is right.

It's not a matter of whether you or I are right, it's about what He actually said. I'd be perfectly happy to admit I was wrong, if can be shown from clear Scripture where I am in error. In fact, let me state it outright for the benefit of the others: IF ANYTHING I HAVE SAID DISAGREES WITH SCRIPTURE, GO WITH WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS! We must answer for ourselves. But I cannot use the implicit to interpret the explicit. His plain, definitive words on the subject of divorce and remarriage override all other considerations.

If you would like, I'd be happy to continue this discussion in private with you, but not if this discussion will agitate you. For those who have questioned these passages in Scripture before, I believe this discussion has been very edifying and informative.

If Jesus was not preaching to believers, (i.e., God's people), then why did He say in Matthew 15:24...I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I wasn't saying He wasn't speaking to believers, I simply pointed out that the adultery the unbeliever commits is no different than the adultery the Believer commits, when they lay with the same married woman. If He said a Believer would commit adultery when taking another man's wife, surely an unbeliever would also be committing adultery under the same circumstances. That's why I asked the question I did. It forces us to admit that the same adultery applies to both the Believer and the unbeliever.

Always in His love,
David

 

[Mark C]

Dear Ray --

I, too, have obviously felt and shared some of your frustration. On more than one occasion with David, here and in the past, I have allowed my frustration with the 'circularity' of discussions on this topic to show through. I have no doubt that David is sincere, but in this case I also have no doubt that he is sincerely wrong. But we are called to speak His truth "boldly", as "we ought to" speak it. Thank you for your efforts in this assignment. Even in our frustration, "iron sharpens iron".

And to all reading here --

"Forbidding to marry" can apply to telling a man not to take another wife, when God allows such, and it certainly applies to telling a woman with a certificate of divorce from her former husband that she cannot remarry, when God allows it. Paul rightfully calls this a "doctrine of demons". (II Timothy 4:1-3)

It has long been obvious to me that David will not be convinced on this subject by Scripture. Call it what we will, and disagree as we obviously do - the point remains: He reads it with a seared conscience, and a degree of legalism hard for me to reconcile with the claim that any part of an Iron Law of Justice Without Mercy has been done away with.

I will address the very specific error of "adultery" or "whoring" in Matthew 5:32 once again in a later post. David has the exception exactly BACKWARDS.

But my concern here is not that issue, but with others. It is clear that there are people who are reading this thread who have NOT seen the previous repetitions. It is important that we do as was outlined in that same letter to Timothy, and "both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God...These things command and teach." Those women who are lead by God to remarry must study for themselves, and test what they understand by the Written Word. A marriage which is joined by God will be blessed by Him.

We all agree that dissolution of marital covenant is horrible, and to be avoided if at all possible. God gives examples, guidance, and procedures to make this obvious. But people are still hard-hearted! There ARE women who have been put away, and have a certificate of divorce. Both the Word and the Word Made Flesh make clear where the fault lies in such cases.

The question is not about what was done in the past. It is about what believers should do in the future!!!

Men: Do NOT put away your wives! If you don't like this choice - don't marry! YOU bear the guilt for adultery that YOUR failure here causes.

Women: Do NOT abandon your husband. To leave HIM without a lawful divorce DOES mean that you are to remain chaste until reconciliation. Our God expects us to honor our Covenants.

All: Choose Life!

But you are not called to be a punching bag, or to be killed. Suicide, after all, is a sin against the Word of God just as is whoring, adultery, or idolatry.

And do not "give heed to seducing spirits", or let the Accuser destroy your [future or CURRENT!] marriage with guilt, lies, and doctrines of demons!

It IS, without question, far too easy in post-Biblical Amerika for anyone to walk away from their solemn covenant of marriage, and claim "my partner abused me". Anything from "she's a lousy cook" or "doesn't turn me on any more" to "he didn't buy me a new dress (Aha! Exodus 21:10! I'm OUTTA here!)" or "he failed to cover me" is sufficient for those who trust in the world instead of God.

Those who ARE divorced can remarry. His Word is unequivocal (Deut. 24:1) on this point; let God judge who is at fault.

And if you are a woman, who is in doubt about her status:

Get right before Him! The Accuser knows his evil business. He WILL attack you when you are vulnerable. He WILL "lead captive silly women laden with sin." He comes but to kill and destroy - and that very definitely INCLUDES marriages!

If at all possible, GET a written certificate of divorce from your husband, if he still lives, and you do not have one. The Bible prescribes this for a reason! KNOW what the Word says - so that you can quench the fiery darts which WILL come. You can do exactly as our Savior did - and confront the Evil One with that evidence: "IT IS WRITTEN". Obedience to His clear, Written Word will bring a blessing - whether it is peace of mind, or a demonstration of your "trust in God", in order to be "in subjection unto" your future husband. (II Peter 3)


May God guide you in joyful obedience to Him,

Mark