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Answering the critics

The way does feel lonely, but since there really are others of us thinking the same you truly aren't alone - not to mention God's companionship also. At least you know of others in the same country as yourself. Where would we all be without this website?
(Thanks heaps Nathan et al.)
 
I am sure you know this already, but the best thing to do is to not argue with the gentleman, but rather point out that upon your study of the Scriptures, and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, you came to a different conclusion, and leave it at that. Don't even put up a defense. There are plenty of resources online if people really want to research and study it out.

I have observed in my own experience that every time I try to 'defend' PM, it seems to marginalize the parties. It doesn't need defending, because it's the truth! My strategy now is to simply respond with, "Yes, I believe that plural marriage is acceptable to God. I am convinced of this from the Bible, and the leading of the Holy Spirit." It forces the other person to re-examine his position as to whether or not he feels the same way. Since doing this, I have had several people come back and say, "I may not agree with you, but I see why you believe that."

I think that is a good first step, and it seems to keep me from losing any more friends.

Blessing
Good Advice Doc. Anyway, the burden of proof is on the one making the accusations. If we claim that plural marriage is righteous and someone wants to challenge us on that truth, then it's on them to prove us wrong. I agree with your approach Doc, sometimes dropping a seed of truth will take root and grow.
 
Cow fam said:
I would appreciate prayer!
You got it. Have just joined you in prayer.
 
ChrisM,

I am blessed to read your posts! I think that God is actually doing something in your fellowship network. For the first time in their lives, many Christian are having their views on God and marriage directly challenged, and it is forcing them to search the Scriptures for conclusions.

I also can't help but chuckle a bit (although not laughing at your struggle), that the more you try to keep quiet about plural marriage, the more OTHERS want to bring it up. Sounds like something Jesus would say, "Tell no man", but then it was noised abroad!

Blessings,

Doc
 
Cow fam said:
On the front of the man we met with today, he is seemingly borderline mentally unstable with all this going on. He shakes when he speaks and can be silent for 4-5 minutes at a time with his head in his hands.
This is not uncommon, there are men like this in every church. In many ways they are an asset, they are very firm in what they believe and can often preach strongly and help to strengthen the faith of others with their firm faith. However they are so firmly entrenched in one way of thinking that they are incapable of actually challenging their presuppositions and hearing God's voice, they are just able to reiterate what they have heard in the past. I really don't know how best to deal with them, if you agree with them they'll support you strongly, but if you disagree with them they have no idea how to deal with it.
Interestingly, he said specifically more than once that it is not sinful, but rather such a taboo topic that a man would be sinning to bring it up to his wife at all.
No topic is too controversial to discuss, and it certainly is not sinful to discuss something that is not a sin! Where's that in the Bible? If you can't discuss something with your wife, your closest companion, then who ARE you to discuss it with? Is it now sinful to discuss the Bible with a dear friend?
We are now forced to talk about it, and simply saying "We have no public comment at this time" doesn't seem to be cutting it.

Bottom line is we are happy to let the whole thing drop, but others demand we lie against God's Word and either proclaim polygamy to be sinful or swear that we would never practice it.
God has got you into this, and therefore He must have some big plan for you. You will certainly meet with severe opposition, but you have an amazing opportunity to speak God's word to the most important leaders in one of the most Bible-fearing Christian denominations in the world. What a calling! You could never have achieved that yourself, but God has opened the door, and the people He wants you to speak to won't let you get away until you've spoken to them! Isn't He wonderful?!

It will be hard, certainly. If you ever need a supporting word from somebody else, if you feel a letter, phone call or face-to-face meeting would help your cause, don't hesitate to ask some of us as you feel God is leading you. I can't help with the personal meetings unless this goes international, but can with the first two.

Follow Him and see where His amazing plan leads, it will be better than you ever could have planned yourself. And maybe He will have a reward for His faithful servant somewhere along the way also...
 
Putting this into one perspective ...

I was raised thinking VERY legalistically. I have a clear memory of my German grandmother telling me to be good so that Jesus could love me.

I was 12 years old when I first heard the term "Righteousness by Faith" from a Bible teacher who, the next school year, resigned to go live with his gay lover. To be fair, he didn't define the term very well. It just stuck in my mind as something important to understand.

Soon thereafter, a pastor in our denomination began making waves by preaching on the topic. Put out some booklets. Got folks very upset. By this time I was attending a conservative denominational boarding academy and living in the dorm. I obtained his books, but had to keep them hidden and read them at night with a flashlight under my blanket.

Now, more or less 40 years later, it is being taught in the same denomination's Sabbath School classes.

Am I any more comfortable there? well, um ... Now I talk about polygamy. AND speak in tongues during the praise service. AND lay hands on just ANYONE for healing 'cause my Example healed them all -- and I don't necessarily use oil, or gather a gaggle of solemn looking "Elders", and DO expect results, and order demons around (ok, order them OUT!) AND refuse to ask the Holy Spirit to show up, claiming that when I walked in the door, so did He!

Yup! I'm pretty comfortable. Loving it actually. Hanging out with God, learning whatever He wants to teach me, and doing the stuff He wants done is FUN! and INTERESTING!

Not so sure that the congregation is comfortable with me, however. I assume that 40 years from now, they probably WILL be teaching these topics routinely in Sabbath School. But by then, I'll probably be ... teleporting between here and Tibet for weekly Bible studies with Buddhist lamas?

So. Advice? Laugh a lot! Help your friend put where he IS now in a historical perspective against, say, Martin Luther's day. Observe all the changes and reformations and revelations that God has brought forth from His Word -- stuff that was already there in the first place but ran contrary to the thinking of a given time. Let him put himself into those times and imagine himself having the courage to stand on the Word of God alone, discarding tradition in favor of the Light God was shining upon His word at that moment. SOMEONE did, else he wouldn't be where he is in his own thinking today. So why not him in his own, i.e. this, generation?

We here at BF tend to be folks who ask ourselves that question and say, "Yup. Here am I. Send me!" And this topic of Biblical Families and PM is only one topic where it occurs. As I've gotten acquainted with folks here, I've so often seen that they were involved in others as well.

It's all good. Just give 'em 40 years. Most of 'em can't absorb it in 40 days! :lol:

No idea why I'm rattling on like this. Too much coffee? Was I even coherent? Will now shut up!
 
And can I PLEASE run around in my b'day suit? SOOOOO much more comfortable AND attractive!

Lamech? Hmmm. I read that. Seems to me that he plead self-defense.

But God! He really BLEW it with that Ishmael guy! You know, Abraham later had something like 6 or 7 MORE sons by a 3rd woman. God let them eventually pass into obscurity. But He just couldn't let well enough alone with Ishmael, could He? Just HAD to go talk to Hagar and promise her that He would make a great nation out of Ishmael. That'll teach HIM to talk so much. Oh! And all that time, He was just too, too shy to tell Abraham, "[highlight=#004000]NOOOooooo! Don't DO dat! It's WRONG! Gonna make TROUBLE! Remember LAAAAaaaaaamech![/highlight]"

Come to think of it, He never did overcome that particular shyness from Creation until this day!

And that's just a quick, almost joking response to just the first 2 paragraphs!

Bottom line, it would be fun to give your friend an accurate assessment:
His article is indeed wonderfully well written, and does clearly present his arguments. However, in the nature of discussion it is considered appropriate for rebuttal to be welcomed, for if one's arguments contain holes, an intellectually and morally honest man would definitely like to know about it.

So what about it? You have no intention of forcing your arguments and views upon his consciousness or conscience. In fact, you did not initiate this exchange. But the fact remains that both you and others see major flaws in the arguments presented, and so CANNOT accept them as stated, however much you would LOVE to do so. Would he care to know about these apparent visible flaws or would he prefer to let the matter drop? And what of the other two men consulted? Would they be open to considering rebuttal?
And do you have THEIR contact info?

The fact is that the arguments have more holes than a swiss cheese. But hey! He gets an 'A' for effort. Even if he DOES run afoul of Proverbs 30:6, and find himself in danger of God calling him a liar.

Funny thing about those unregenerate heathens who prefer / mandate monogamy. They existed in Bible days, too. Egyptians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans. Which of them bore God's seal of approval or became His chosen people, the light to the world? Oops! Blew it again, God!
 
Cow fam said:
God created the woman with deep needs for
security and significance and those needs cannot be fully met through polygamy (as shown in
Jacob’s family situation).

Says who? Him? That's a pretty big assumption to make, and he's wrong! Although I'm not in a pm I don't see my security and significance being decreased at all if it were to happen. Also, if I had the option of marrying a man with a wife and gaining security or not marrying at all I'd choose the former!

And what is with this silly argument I keep seeing everywhere that just because a few people in the bible didn't follow God correctly in their practice of pm suddenly none of us should do it? You know you could say that about anything really. You could say that right now about monogomy. So many marriages end up in divorce, the statistics showing that it is the same amount in Christians as in others so maybe we shouldn't get married at all ;)
 
A few thoughts to get you thinking:
Cow fam said:
First, it should be noted that polygamy is never endorsed by God in Scripture
Levirate marriage
and is generally presented negatively when mentioned.
How many times is any marriage discussed at all, in either a positive or negative light? Not very often, scripture mostly talks about men only. I would be fascinated to do some actual statistics on frequency of mention of each, whether positive, negative or neutral. I don't think there's much difference between each but haven't worked it out yet.

I note that:
Christians should not use the behavior of Old Testament characters to direct their conduct
unless the underlying behavior is sanctioned by God in Scripture.
But he is quite happy to then present a big list of OT characters to demonstrate why you should NOT be polygynous:
Let us apply this principle to polygamy. The first polygamist was Lamech; incidentally, he also was a murderer (Gen. 4:19-23). In the Garden of Eden, God had instituted His perfect pattern for marriage – one man and one woman until death separates them. Having established the foundation for family life, God then commanded our first parents to procreate and fill the earth (Gen. 1:28, 2:21-24). If polygamy was better than monogamy God would have yanked two ribs from Adam and fashioned two women for him.
etc.

This is why Elkanah likely married Peninah; Hannah, his first wife, could not bear him children (1 Sam. 1:1-8).
Where does the bible say which was first? Irrelevant point though as their order proves nothing really.

Though much sin occurred and grieved God’s heart in ancient times, many of these offenses were not imputed as transgression because God had not yet posted His Law (Rom. 4:15, 5:13).
God HAD posted His Law! Most of his examples were from Judges and Kings, long after God had given the Law through Moses. This argument is fundamentally flawed.

When the Law came it put constraints on sin in order to show man that he was inherently sinful, condemned before God, and needed a Savior (Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:24). ... Likewise, polygamy was not God’s model for marriage, but at the time the Law was given He only warned against it and put limitations on it (Duet. 17:17, 21:15).
Massive assumption here. Somehow he knows God's model for marriage better than Moses did.

Through the Mosaic Law, God proved to the Jews that they were Law-breakers and thus deserved judgment. However, in the Church Age, because believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they not only have the capacity to keep the Law, but also to fulfill it in love; this represents God’s fullest intention for His children (Rom.13:8-10).
So if a man dies with no children, does he agree that his Christian brother has the capacity to keep the Law by taking his dead brother's wife as his second wife?

There was no possibility of fulfilling the Law in the Old Testament, and that is why the original pattern of marriage is not affirmed until Christ does so in Matthew 19:5-6, just prior to the advent of the Church Age.
But earlier he had affirmed that men were generally monogamous in the Old Testament, by attempting to show that the Bible gives few examples of polygamy and all are negative. So plenty of men were able to keep the "original pattern of marriage" in the Old Testament, how is the New any different in this regard? He is obviously taking Matthew 19:5-6 out of context also.

The Lord Jesus clearly states that unless a marriage covenant is dissolved for the case of adultery (some see this caveat only applying to the Jewish betrothal) any man marrying another woman commits adultery with her (Matt. 19:9).
This takes a careful study of the Greek, which others have done elsewhere.

The fact that a man would be disqualified from church leadership if he was a polygamist tells us what marital pattern is important to God.
Again the Greek is very revealing
The apostles each had either one wife or no wife (1 Cor. 9:5)
This verse doesn't say that at all. It was discussing whether the apostles should take "a believing wife" with them on missionary journeys. That says nothing about how many wives they might have had at home. To read my own ideas into the Bible just like he does, you could argue that given they had no contraception they would have been likely to have a few children at home too if they were married, so only those with more than one wife would have had the freedom to take "a believing wife" with them while leaving the children cared for at home, because the passage doesn't say "a believing wife and her children"...

and those in church leadership or in the office of a deacon could not be polygamists (Tit. 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2, 12).
Back to the Greek...
Scripture records no example of any Christian engaging in the practice of polygamy;
Does scripture record any example of a Christian even having children? I can't think of one (but I stand to be corrected). Maybe we aren't supposed to have children either. :roll: The New Testament doesn't discuss people's personal lives much, it's more about doctrine, it doesn't give us many examples at all.

monogamy, however, is repeatedly shown to be the proper pattern for marriage (Eph. 5:31-33).
Why presume this is exclusive?
and why Isaac, who represents Christ in typology, never engaged in polygamy.
Scripture never says he was monogamous either, it just discusses one wife he had. No idea if he had others or not, I'm happy to presume he did not but wouldn't base my theology on such an argument from silence.

In vain, some have justified polygamy by referring to scriptural analogies and parables to show that God upholds polygamy. Some have used Jeremiah 3 to declare that since God had two wives, Israel and Judah, polygamy is acceptable. However, thorough study indicates that God made a single marriage covenant with the nation of Israel (Ezek. 16), but after the kingdom split, God poetically speaks of them as two adulterous sisters, not as two wives. The distinction was necessary as the spiritual adultery Judah was committing was more “treacherous” than Israel’s blatant idolatry. So to call God a “Polygamist” is insulting to Him; it is not an accolade of praise that Scripture renders to God and neither should His people.
Interesting argument here. But why does he think it is "insulting" to call God a polygamist? Or why would it be an "accolade of praise" either? Maybe he can be happy that this passage does not say anything to support polygamy, if so it doesn't oppose it either but just has nothing to say on the matter.

Some say that Christ married five virgins at one time in the parable of Matthew 25. Yet, the Lord is not specifically identified in the parable, nor does the text state that he married the virgins. In fact, the dispensational teaching of the parable is that when Christ returns from heaven with His bride at the end of the Tribulation Period, Spirit-indwelt Jews will be waiting on the earth for Him. This refined Jewish remnant will then celebrate with Christ at the wedding feast (Rom 9:25-28, 11:7-12, 25).
He also identifies the bridegroom as Christ, along with every other person I have ever heard speak on the passage, so stating He is not "specifically identified" is irrelevant. I am happy for someone to not find this passage as conclusive pro-polygamy evidence if they wish to explain it away, but the passage does make more sense when you accept polygamy.

Another major reason to reject polygamy today is that it is illegal under civil law in most cultures. As this prohibition does not contradict God’s law, it would be a sin to engage in polygamy where civil law prohibits it. Paul makes it clear that those who oppose civil authority are opposing God and will be judged (Rom. 13:2). How effective would gospel ministry be, if Christians engaged in what even the unregenerant know to be immoral?
Here it is illegal to physically discipline our children, do we obey that nonsense? The unregenerate "know" that if a wife is submissive to her husband that is immoral because she is being "oppressed" - do we follow that heathen line of thinking too? Let's base our theology on the Bible. Once we know what God says is right, we can then consider whether it can be followed in our society without breaking Romans 13:2. The world is NOT America, and it certainly is not banned globally, so we cannot base our theology on the biases of American lawmakers.

As in the days of old, polygamy today results from either human reasoning or lusting for what is beyond the expressed will of God.
Levirate marriage...
Although not His revealed will in the Old Testament, polygamy was not imputed as transgression; however, the Lord Jesus has reposted God’s pattern for marriage and commands Christians to obey it. Without any hesitation I can say that polygamy is a sin for the Church to engage in![/i]
A statement clearly based on a house of cards.
 
Cow fam said:
I just need to know one thing: Should all metalworkers and those who make musical instruments stop doing so? :lol:


This.

Copy\paste answers are usually a sign of not really understanding the subject matter. I would reply by sending him a link to http://www.amazon.com/Thelyphthora-Trea ... 0982537506 and kindly suggest he read and study the attached, at it covers the topic in detail.

Unless that article was actually his creation, it looks very copy\pasty is all.

The hermeneutics of it all are just so terrible its hard to comment more, it makes me think of kabbalists reading something into anything to make their mysticism work.


No matter what you do this calls for a very tongue in cheek response.

"I am aware the discussion would go very poorly for you, and respect that you don't like the idea of potentially being wrong in your convictions. If you wish to flee the conversation to save your ego and blind faith there is little that can be done about it. You're in my prayers."

Such like that.
 
Great response Tlaloc! I'd however give a link to "Man and woman in biblical law" or "Polygamy and monogamy compared", which are in more readable language than Theolyphthera, depending on what sort of literature the brother tends to read. Meet him wherever he is.

I don't think the article is copy/pasted, I've run it through an online plagiarism checker and done some search engine searches for key phrases, and can't find any potential sources. I'd say it's his own work.
 
Or you might just point him to William Luck's book on Divorce and Remarriage, which should be read in it's entirety including the Appendix on Biblical Polygyny in which he concludes that polygyny is Biblical. I've heard Luck has taught at some of the retreats and hope to hear him in person at some point. Oh, and his book is free online.
 
For interest's sake ...

Am now reading a biography of William Carey, called the Father of Modern Missions about 200 years ago.

He was treated to the same sort of ridicule, opposition, shunning, ridiculous logic, etc. that we are, right down to his wife announcing that she would NOT follow him ...

For advocating sending missionaries into all the world.

Look at us now! Take comfort, this too shall pass. We merely are privileged to bear the discomfort of being the pointy end of the spear.
 
Mark - I have you and your family in my prayers. God sends us trials to make us stronger. You are going through this trial for a reason. I have faith that you will emerge strengthened in your relationship to God and strengthened in his ability to use you as his servant. It is never fun being refined through the fire, but the results are usually awe-inspiring.
 
Mark, I found an encouraging Word this evening in my Bible reading, and thought of you:

Matthew 5:11-12 "Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad; for great is your reward in heaven. For so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
 
Regarding 'warring' with other believers, I am acquainted with a a real life analogy of late.

When we are excercising, we are working muscles that may not have been used for a while. Sometimes, there is pain involved, not in the sense of trying to 'hurt' our muscles, but that anytime growth or birth occurs, there is usually pain involved. The body is perfectly happy to sit around, eat donuts, and watch tv; it does not WANT to change. When we challenge our physical bodies to improve, those 'members' that are in rebellion will be vocal about it; your side will hurt, your feet will hurt, you will run out of breath, etc.

However, once that weight comes off, and those members are disciplined by the habit of consistent challenge, they will either submit (become lean muscle) or burn off (excessive calories, ie FAT).

Keep running, ChrisM!

Doc
 
Heard a wonderfully relevant piece of logic this evening...

Why do they paint stripes down the middle of the road?

To keep the elephants off the highway.​

Well, it WORKS doesn't it? When's the last time YOU saw an elephant trundling down a striped road?

Thing is, logic of similar seeming validity, but lack of solid basis, underpins all these arguments defending or demanding monogamy. And just as it would be tiring to answer logic such as the above only to have the argument change to "because they didn't want drivers to have stars in their eyes", to "What good would they do on the sidewalk?", to ...

*sigh* The devil can keep us busy to the point of being overwhelmed answering the critics.

OR, we can simply assert some simple principles, over and over, and over. God designed us to be in families. God has more than one son, Jesus more than one church/wife, Women more than one child, and men more than one wife. Gotta treat 'em like Christ treats the church. Can't abdicate responsibility for authority -- God won't recognize the abdication as valid. God's best plan for the "widows" among us involves Godly men stepping up, regardless of whether they're already married or not. Etc.
 
CecilW said:
Heard a wonderfully relevant piece of logic this evening...

Why do they paint stripes down the middle of the road?

To keep the elephants off the highway.​

Well, it WORKS doesn't it? When's the last time YOU saw an elephant trundling down a striped road?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I'm having fun thinking of novel answers and approaches ...

It occurs to me that all the ideas running around Christendom masquerading as food fall into one of two categories.

** Bread of Life, or
** Sacred Cows

When it comes to the conversations we have, the first thing to do is to check with the Bible to determine which a given idea is?

Bread of Life may be received with joyfulness to the good of our bodies. Immediately.

Sacred Cows gotta be slaughtered, butchered, and burned a while (BBQ) before they're edible! And even then, God's original plan for man, as per the garden, was vegetarian! (Not starting into that controversy. Just enjoying the analogy.) Even BBQ'd, they may not do us all that much good, but they smell interesting and are fun to chew on! :roll: :lol:

Still, a Bread of Life diet is more profitable withal.
 
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